It seems to me that part of the problem is one of supply and demand. If there
was a way for foreign workers to legally come and work when they are needed and
return when they are not needed, there would be no reason for them to come
illegally. When there is work and no legal means to get here, they will come
illegally. Until congress address this reality, no amount of money thrown at
"blocking" the border will be enough.
Wait - I thought we were supposed to embrace our "illegal friends"??
Isn't the new Utah law all about making illegal entry more attractive? Sounds to
me like the "real" poll numbers prove the majority of Americans are
SICK of being overrun by illegal law breakers along with the violence, drugs and
increased taxes they bring with them ... and want it stopped!!
This indicates to me the possibility that almost 75% of Americans have been
snowed by the fearmongering propaganda regarding "securing our
borders".Military industrial types are absolutely titillated by
this modern twist towards neo-Feudalism with huge expensive walls and weaponry
being erected by already broke governments across the world. Defense is always
a good idea. Superfluous and expensive draconianism and tyranny are things I
find less wise.America needs less "Berlin Wall"s and more
Statues of Liberty. Remember the inscription on that statue? The one that
challenges the world to offer their poor and oppressed and downtrodden to the
'land of the free' -- the 'land of opportunity'?It seems that we are
the Zarahemla-ites in the Book of Mormon, hypocritically and pointlessly pouring
money and time into our Ramemptoms so that we can stand atop them and thank God
for allowing us to be born where we are, declaring our many entitlements that we
claim because of that blessing, and condemning all others as obviously cursed
and unworthy of what is only "rightfully" ours and ours alone.I'm glad my ancestors got in before all this. But I bet they'd be
"Give me your tired, your poor,Your huddled masses yearning to
breathe free,The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.Send these,
the homeless, tempest-tost to me"Not anymore. Pass laws that
make it impossible for them to come, then when they break those laws, catch them
and send those huddled masses back to poverty. America became great by adhering
to its core values, and it will be great no longer when it abandons them.
Millions of people come here LEGALLY every year. It's not like an impossible
process or anything.I still say go after employers. If nobody will
hire illegals then illegals will stop coming.And we DON'T need
illegal workers for anything. Unemployment in this nation is 10%. On top of that
another 15% are underemployed... working part-time because that's all they can
find. How many million jobs are being taken by illegals?You say
illegals take jobs Americans won't do because the pay or benefits aren't good
enough. I say without illegal labor the industries offering these jobs would
have to pony up the cash and hire honest American workers or go out of business.
It's that easy. If McDonald's suddenly couldn't find anyone willing
to flip burgers for $8/hr what do you think they would do? They would offer
$9/hr or $10/hr or whatever it took to find people to do the job. The industries benefiting from illegal labor are keeping standards of living
down for everyone because they don't pay a living wage. When our lowest bracket
of workers can't survive on what they bring in what kind of message is that
"A majority of Americans believe the need for government action to block
illegal immigrants at the border is important..."Too funny!
Almost half of illegals come here on legitimate visas but overstay. The border
patrol can check all they wish at the border but it does little to nothing about
keeping illegals out of this country.
"Utahvoter" I hope you understand that there are still LEGAL ways to
emigrate to the U.S.I wonder if you feel that "any and
all" should be able to live in the U.S. if they desire? There are about 5
billion of those folks.Or should we ONLY allow those who dash across
the Arizona desert be the recipients of our generosity (free medical, education,
welfare, etc.)?Should we just eliminate all borders?
@SummerlinUte: "If there was a way for foreign workers to legally come and
work when they are needed and return when they are not needed, there would be no
reason for them to come illegally."Where have you been, Summer?
There is a way. Federal law provides for work visas. The problem is, foreign
workers don't go home when the seasonal work ends and/or their visas expire.
It sure seems foolish to send 1200 or so National Guard to our borders (each of
them defending a mile or so, I guess), but not allowing them to use force. It
makes eminent sense that we should be putting troops on our border, the same as
we do on our coasts with the Coast Guard. But, the borders only
count for half of the illegal population in our country. The rest overstay
their visas or get here through other means. So, while we should get serious
about securing our borders, we need to also go after the illegals that are
already here or will be here. Support the requirement of using eVerify. That
and checking fingerprints of arrested people would be a good start.
@Sasha Pachev: "America became great by adhering to its core
values..."Yes, and one of our core values is obeying the laws
of the land. Without that we have anarchy.
It is not impossible to come visit the U.S. or to obtain a work visa. We give
out tens of thousands of these work visas every year. They don't even cost that
much, and most employers are willing to pay for it, especially if we start
holding businesses accountable for hiring known illegals.All of your
ancestors had to register with the United States when they were immigrating to
the U.S. No country has an open border allowing anyone to come and go whenever
they please for whatever reason.There is no excuse for illegal
immigration. We have "Latino groups" that condone and facilitate
illegal immigration. It simply has to stop! Now!!
If the only consequence for someone here illegally is to be shipped back to
their homeland, people are going to continue to take the risk. If they get
caught, they go back home and try it again until they get caught again.
FitnessFreak,I absolutely feel that our borders should be
well-defined because I also understand why others would want to leave their
nations of origin to immigrate here. I don't think it would be wise to blur
those lines.But I don't fear being overrun by immigrants. We have
plenty of space and plenty of resources. It would take an overnight influx of
almost 4 billion of those immigrants before we'd even begin to approach the kind
of population density of modern day England. No, we're not facing those kinds
of problems.I still believe that every person is equal in the eyes
of God. I still believe in liberty, opportunity, and industry.When
my ancestors immigrated here they weren't stealing jobs, in my opinion. They
created industries and cities and innovated and prospered. America could have
built Berlin Walls back in 1640 or 1776 or 1850 - and thank goodness we
didn't.I don't understand the sense of entitlement of today's
naturally born U.S. citizens. If our misbegotten 'social welfare' programs do
not scale well then they won't scale well with large U.S. Mormon families or
other growth and success either. Scapegoating "scary" foreigners
doesn't solve that.
So when did bought-and-paid-for politicians care about what citizens and
taxpayers want? Oh, wait . . . they don't. If you were part of the cheap-labor
lobby and giving tens of thousands to politicians who vote for an absurdity like
HB 116, then you'd matter. But otherwise, you just get to keep paying for the
invasion in many, many ways. And you also get to keep listening to all the
people who are devoid of rationality and common sense tell you that we need to
accept the entire third-world on our doorstep and our welfare roles.
ouisc:That's just it, obviously the "tens of thousands" of
work visas we give out are not enough to meet demand. Not even close. Nor are
the amount of citizenships granted each year enough. What the
government is doing is not enough compared to the demand for immigration.
Believe me. I know many people who have spent years trying to enter the country
or become citizens. I know we can't let everyone in, but we make it so painful
that people just go the easy route and hop the border.patriot:"Isn't the new Utah law all about making illegal entry more
attractive?" No. Its about granting legal entry to the State of Utah to
those who want to be here to work. Its about getting people who are already
here illegally to pay fines and come out of obscurity.The slander I
have seen from the far right recently reminds me of the slander from the far
left we saw when Bush was in office. Whether a staunch environmentalist or a
staunch border protectionist, I see the same mentality: blockade instead of
"Utahvoter" thank you! I respect your opinion.The
problem I think comes when we are required by law to provide SIGNIFICANT support
to any/all who manage to arrive here. In Utah that amounts to about 400 million
per year. Yours and my ancestors probably didn't ask/expect that.There are a variety of measures that would most likely be more effective than
building fences or walls but those aren't being used either.I don't
think EITHER political party has REALLY wanted to secure the border, but for
different reasons.The citizens are now DEMANDING it, one way or
Here you DesNews and Dan Jones - your poll said 61% favored HB116. And this
poll wants the border closed. Only 7% said if was not important to stop these
people at the border. And the majority of people don't want amnesty for those
already here illegally. Try going to another country without proper entry and
proper identification - find out what happens.
@FitnessFreak,Thanks, I also respect your point of view. I'm not
certain where these numbers -- ie $400 million -- are coming from regarding the
cost of undocumented immigrants. When I've tried to research it myself I've run
into lots of bogus numbers and faulty logic.Immigrants -- both those
that manage to jump through our new hoops and those that don't -- are a
substantial part of our current economy. They contribute to the workforce, they
start new (and legitimate) businesses, they rent homes in this down-market, and
purchase property. Kicking them all to the border would not only be expensive
on the front-end, but it would eliminate that many more residents that are
allowing property taxes and other incomes to be collected. I'm not certain we
are losing $400 million a year on that segment of the population -- if
anything.The one place that the system is certainly broken is with
EMTALA (or whatever the acronym) that mandates hospitals *must* provide any
healthcare to any and all that "can't" pay. That seems broken whether
you are dealing with immigrants or not. One of the reasons I support HB116 is
that applicants are required to get insurance like us.
We repatriot more people and a higher percentage of people who enter our country
legally than nearly every other country. We are doing more for the welfare of
our neighbors than anywhere else in the world. If it's still not enough for
you, contact your legislature to increase funding for the INS.The
INS is not broken to the point of needing to facilitate millions of people here
illegally. These illegal aliens could have have come legally in the same droves
they're invading our country.No whining. No excuses. Enforce our
freakin laws, already!
"As long as there's a market, as long as there's a profit, there will
always be someone taking a chance on getting that product through."Absolutely true! So what if we do this: Let's legalize
these drugs and make them available in the drug stores, with a provision that we
know who is purchasing them. We would need to enforce laws for mis-use of
these items, such as driving while under the influence, in public, etc. No
doubt, some people will self-destruct with this system, but they are already
doing that. This will take the profit away from the cartels. Our big "War
on Drugs" is not working.We fix the next part of the problem by
having a federal E-verify that will penalize severely emmployers who hire
illegal aliens. When most of the jobs dry up, then the magnet of attraction
will disappear and not so many will be coming here.Instead of having
our troops defending borders in some foreign country, let's bring them home and
defend our own borders. If they must die, let them die here defending the
country they have sworn to protect. No more "cannon fodder"!
"Utahvoter" - I live and work all around illegal immigrants. MOST
ARE hardworking. Some are not. The problem becomes how do we separate the
"contributors" from the "users" without involving an orderly
immigration system.I EMPHATICALLY don't believe HB116 does that. I
DO KNOW that I see MANY illegal immigrants going through the grocery store lines
with WIC, food stamps, (usually both)but they always have a wad of cash for the
beer and imported soda.Interestingly, involving EMTLA, I recently
found myself in a hospital waiting room for about 3 hours (long story)and there
was a latin woman with her 2 kids who had come in through the emergency room and
was DEMANDING an MRI and CT scan for one of her kids. The hospital staff was
trying to tell her that the child didn't need it, and they didn't have anyone to
interpret the results of the tests even if they did administer it. I wasn't
SUPPOSED to be hearing all this I'm sure but they had to bring an interpreter
who talked quite loud. The woman knew if she left that would END her emergency
visit so she wouldn't leave until she had the tests!
@ouiscDude here are the numbers, the visa's that you think are so
cheap:Visa Petitions:Immigrant petition for relative $420Orphan (intercountry adoption) immediate relative petition $720Immigrant application fee's:Immediate relative and family preference
applications $330Employment-based applications $720Other immigrant
visa applications $350Other Fee's:Diversity Visa Lottery fee
$440Affidavit of Support Review $88Immigrant visa security
surcharge $74Now the average yearly income for some of our southern
countries:Mexico: $5178Brazil: $2800El Salvador: $1900Peru: $1800Ecuador $1044Bolivia $920.11Honduras $827Haiti $480 For not so south neighborsJapan 35KDenmark
30KUK 24KGermany 23KCanada 20KWe charge the same
amount whether your from Japan or Honduras. Is that really fair?? How long do
you think it takes someone from Honduras to gather enough money for a visa?We won't even discuss that our country would rather give the visa to the
Japanese person instead of the person from Honduras.Oh & don't
count on refugee status...unless your from Cuba.Please remember
these numbers when someone tells you that it's cheap & easy to get a visa.
We can't stop murder nor can we stop robbery either, but we can slow them down.
A border wall will never stop the problem, but if it reduces it 75-80% it's a
huge victory, and makes the problem more manageable.
Are local governments listening to these polls? Those that do and pass strict
legislation as viewed with horror and accused of being thoughtless, uncaring and
racist just to mention a few of the milder words.Are the legislators in
Congress listening? Is the President of the United States listening? There is no
evidence of action on their part. Polls are only good things if they lead to
actions to right the situation.
I find it really strange all the people crying for the illegal's. One question,
why should any American be held accountable to the laws of the land while 12
million non-Americans can just pick and choose to follow the law.
As long as employment laws are not enforced against employers, it will be
impossible to defend the border without shooting people. Yes there are federal
and even state laws against the employment of illegal aliens, but generally
ignored due to non-enforcement. Even the Utah Attorney General has stated that
his office would not even enforce ID theft laws when used for the purpose of
employment.Closing the border would not even come close to solving
the problem, though it would be a good step forward. Nearly 45 percent of
illegal aliens enter the United States on some type of visa and then
intentionally overstay the visa and become an illegal alien. Since
human trafficking, illegal alien smuggling, and drug smuggling are joined
together in crossing the border and transporting further into the United States
by Mexican cartels, corruption in Mexico and the U.S. has become so pervasive
that it has become nearly impossible to stop. Drug smuggling and
illegal alien smuggling have the same root cause, American Greed.