Your Utah legislature, at work! Walla folks!Methinks the curtain has
been removed and now we're seeing the Wizard for who he really is.
You have to smirk a little at anyone who defends her side by denigrating her
allies. Ms. Griffin's defense basically relies on the belief that her allies
lacked the dedication and fortitude to see out the entire meeting, which was
implicitly their job when entrusted by their friends and neighbors to represent
them at the state convention. If your exucse for losing is that your side is
lousier than ours, well I'm happy to believe it.As for the poll,
there are polls designed to seek out the truth and there are polls designed to
move opinion. Polls looking for the truth are often elaborately crafted,
expensive to conduct, and kept close to the vest of the politicians and
corporations who sponsor them.Minor changes in wording can alter the
results dramatically. The vaunted Dan Jones 61% poll: 1) polled only 406 people;
2) referred to illegal immigrants as "undocumented immigrants" - which
has a huge psychological impact on those being polled; 3) referred to them as
"guestworkers" when experience suggests the "guests" will
never go home; 4) *assumes* the state will validate their employment status and
criminal history before granting them permits to remain.
I'd like to extend my prior comments a little. In 2008, Rep. Chris Cannon nearly
lost the Republican nomination at the state convention when Jason Chaffetz fell
just shy of the 60% needed to receive the Republican endorsement outright. The
convention delegates were written off as extremists unrepresentative of the 3rd
Distict Republicans as a whole...until Chaffetz went on to win the primary by an
even larger margin than he'd won at the convention.Of course, then
the primary voters were written off as unrepresentative of...the people who were
too lazy to bother to show up to vote. I guess it's not too shocking that that
Chaffetz/Cannon race centered on illegal immigration, as well.Do I
think state delegates are representative of the whole state, or even their
party? Quite possibly they aren't. What they ARE representative of is the
responsible, well-informed and civic-minded people we rely on to govern this
country wisely and justly.
Ah. I see what you're saying, Rebekah: The ones who did their jobs and stayed
for the vote were the bad guys -- the "extremists."Sorry,
Rebekah, but the conjecture also could be made that those 600 who left, though
indeed foolish and derelict in their duty, also were fully confident that the
resolution would pass by a very wide margin and that their votes therefore would
be superfluous and surplus. Regarding the poll, many dismiss it as
ridiculously inaccurate. It is easy to rig a poll. One way is to screen out
those most likely to give the "wrong" answer through the use of
"qualifying questions." I myself heard one caller to a local radio
show testify that he personally was disqualified by the Dan Jones company for
this very poll when he revealed, during the "qualifying"
questionnaire, that he has an advanced degree, that he does not read the
newspaper, and that he instead uses the Internet and listens to the radio
(likely meaning talk radio). Also, the Dan Jones company is well aware of Utah
demographics and telephone prefix maps and knows very well where proponents of
illegal immigration and HB116 are most likely to live.
It is as simple as this: right wing bullies who cannot accept the results of a
Perhaps all 600 delegates who went home early knew what the people knew, that
HB116 would be voted to be repealed. Rebekah, how about getting to work on
repealing it and getting something like E-verify in place for all employers to
Rebekah - the simple fact is that supporters of HB116 refuse to admit is that a
Utah Guest Worker program is not needed as there is already a solution in place
for workers to come to the U.S. legally - the EXISTING Federal Guest Worker
program with categories for different work types:- Permanent Labor
Certification: A certification issued by the Department of Labor (DOL) allows an
employer to hire a foreign worker to work permanently in the United States.- H-2A Temporary Labor Certification (Seasonal Agricultural): Program
for agricultural employers who anticipate a shortage of domestic workers to
bring non-immigrant foreign workers to the U.S. to perform agricultural labor or
services of a temporary or seasonal nature.- H-2B Temporary Labor
Certification (Non-agricultural): Program permits employers to hire foreign
workers to come temporarily to the U.S. and perform temporary non-agricultural
services or labor on a one-time, seasonal, peakload or intermittent basis.For those that say the process/program is broken, an article published
in the NY Times, 09 July 2010, shows otherwise. Continued-
From the NY Times article:Immigration and Customs Enforcement conducted an
audit of employees at Gebbers Farms, an apple producer in Brewster, Washington.
ICE found evidence that more than 500 of its workers, mostly immigrants from
Mexico, were in the country illegally. ICE then advised Gebbers Farms of Social
Security and immigration numbers that did not check out with federal databases.
The workers were then fired.John Morton, the head of the immigration
agency, said the goal of the audits is to create "a culture of
compliance" among employers, so that verifying new hires would be as
routine as paying taxes. ICE leaves it up to employers to fire workers whose
documents cannot be validated. But an employer who fails to do so risks
prosecution.After completing a federally mandated local labor
search, Gebbers Farms applied to the federal guest worker program to import
about 1,200 legal temporary workers most from Mexico. The guest workers, who can
stay for up to six months, also included about 300 from Jamaica.HB116 should be replaced with legislation REQUIRING all companies to use
E-Verify and the EXISTING Federal Guest Worker program.
@ anti-liarI, too, was a delegate who voted against the resolution.
I stayed the entire time even though I had to drive back to Vernal afterwards.
There were 'extremists' in attendance who tried several times to disrupt the
proceedings of the convention. Enid Mickelson did a masterful job in not
allowing them to do so.You tend do dismiss poll results when they
don't agree with your opinion, but when they do, you use them as proof fo your
opinion. You claim to "have heard" on some local radio talk show
someone say they were disqualified for this very poll because of certain
reasons. What radio show? Who was the accusing person (name)? How do I know
that you are not just making everything up? Dan Jones performs many
polls and surveys each year and has experience. If they were to be as
manipulative as you claim, they would have gone out of business in Utah long
ago. I'm sure that in the past you have quoted Dan Jones polls to prove your
point of view. Don't try to defame just because the results of one poll were
not what you think the should be.
Rebekah might want to talk with the Utah GOP leadership then, to find out why
the vote was scheduled so late. I'm sure it wasn't because they thought the
vote on HB116 was low-priority. Rather, I'm sure they were hoping that waiting
would result in the resolution failing. Looks like it didn't work out their
way.Perhaps the Utah GOP leadership is clueless. But, more likely,
the Utah GOP leadership has goals that don't match up with the average Utah
In any two-way vote, one side will "win" and one side will
"lose". Complaining about a loss after the fact only shows that
either you did not work hard enough to explain your position, or that your
position was the "extreme" position and the "winners" held
the correct position.Why did we reject a monarchy? Was it just
possible that the king, even when advised by his "wise men" only had
his interests in mind? Is it possible that the "wise men" who passed
HB116 were clueless about the message they were sending? Is it
possible that HB116 should be repealed because it creates "de facto"
amnesty? Is it possible that stealing Social Security numbers,
using government services, and lying about citizenship are crimes that require
deportation? HB116 gives a job to those who knowing break our laws.
I would like a job. Should I hurry down to Mexico and sneak back into the
country, steal someone else's I.D., lie about my activities, and then expect
someone to hire me?
A cursory acquaintance with history reveals that a party and ideology that
blames all its problems on a downtrodden minority, that exalts the
"exceptionalism" of its own nation, and that worships the weapons of
war is known as "fascism."
HA!!! A Utah politician complaining about politicians and politics in Utah!
Welcome to the real world, now you know why we as citizens get frustrated and
discouraged by those who are supposed to represent us. So, what are you going
to do about it Rebekah??
The funny thing about HB116 is that for it to go into effect, it requires a
waiver from the Federal Government. So, even without it being repealed, it
cannot be enacted.
Had the 600 delegates stayed, I am convinced you would have seen a wider margin
in support of the resolution to repeal...it's a bad bill...all you need to do is
read it to figure it out. Utah is this country's immigration reform
pawn - HB116 is not only an imperfect bill, it's a flawed bill that sets a
precedent that will take this state and country down a frightening path if not
significantly amended or repealed and replaced. A better, more
equitable, constitutionlly sound bill is required. Utah can do much better.
I believe that if more would have stayed, the bill would have lost by a larger
margin. There were phone polls going around for many days before the convention.
I believe our politician's knew that they were going to lose by the polls and
that is why they pushed the vote till much later in the day. I do not know why
Rebekah would want this bill to pass when so many are out of work. Our teenagers
who can work part time and help their parents out with school clothes and extra
activities should be working to learn the value of work. Those jobs are taken by
illegal immigrants. Why Rebekah would want to force taxes down the throats of
citizens to pay for illegal immigration is socialistic. It is time Rebekah stops
looking through liberal eyes and sees the drugs that enter the state and the
crime that is entering our state. #116 is for special interest groups. It is not
for the citizen.
"There were rumblings that this resolution was delayed on purpose.
"I think it was but for a benign reason. If you save it for
last that'll motivate more people to stay for the whole thing. Since turnout
apparently is poor they didn't want to have that go first and then have everyone
just leave after that vote.
In 1776 a group of American patriots courageously, but illegally, for the law of
their day, declared independence from their unjust British rulers. I see the
attempts of the Utah Legislature to find workable solutions to our current
federally induced immigration fiasco, as an equally courageous attempt to
institute just law. Their efforts wont be 100%; but I am hopeful
there are enough people in America who live courageously by the principles of
the Great Commandment and the Second, that is like unto it. Do we have that
same courage today to be such patriots and change unjust immigration law?
The history of our party demonstrates clearly that those running our party
intentionally schedule resolutions at the end of the meeting. The reason is
simple, they know that after 5-6 hours, delegates do get discouraged and leave.
Their problem this time around was that the pro-illegal alien lobby
underestimated the willingness of those that want HB116 repealed to stay till
the resolution did finally come up for a vote. (It's not that they didn't try
their game once again, for they did.)It is shameful that our party
leaders utilize this ploy to eliminate the voice of those that are simply
looking for any way for an honest debate of the issues they consider worthy of
discussion. Yet, they have done this for years and years.This time,
they just didn't count on the anger of the delegates over the foolish passage of
HB116. One thing, this anger of this group of delegates will make for an
interesting upcoming election next time around! Very interesting indeed.
The very Utah County extremists who advocate repealing HB 116 are perhaps the
same people who go to Sunday School the next day and hear the "Love One
Another" lesson. Their response in Sunday School is likely, "Of
course I love everyone, just as the Savior admonishes, but I get to pick who
they are." Reminds me of a group of Pharisees.
@Al Well, I too was there, Al, and when it came to the repeal-HB116
resolution, Enid Mickelson actually praised the convention afterwards for its
civility. The attempts to disrupt had taken place earlier, and had to do with a
completely unrelated matter. But then I'm sure you already knew that.And regarding my dismissal of the poll results, the evidence of its inaccuracy
is overwhelming -- not just results of other polls, but all sorts of indicators
of the actual values of most Utahns. For example, most recognize the plain
immorality, injustice and nonsensicality of rewarding illegal behavior with jobs
that unemployed Utahns badly need. Most Utahns are able to read through the
claims of the wolves in sheep's clothing that HB116 would be good for Utah. And yes, I, and many others I assure you, did hear that caller who had
been disqualified for no good reason, on Rod Arquette's radio show. And yes his
story is quite believable, considering the poll results."If
they were to be as manipulative as you claim, they would have gone out of
business in Utah long ago."Given the illegal immigration,
anti-enforcement lobby's determination and budget, are you kidding??
To "goatesnotes | 11:25 a.m" what about the Salt Lake County
extremists who go to Sunday School the next day and hear lessons about obeying
the law of the land?Do they get to say "I obey the laws I feel
Are citizens who want our laws ENFORCED extremists?Rebekah - if you
remember last years legislative session Sandstroms' bill, when introduced in the
House, sailed through by a margin or 4-1. Then the bill was sent to the Senate
where it sat, and sat, and sat......Then in the last couple of days
.....surprise, surprise the Senate leadership were able to pass all the amnesty
bills. The Sandstrom bill became so watered down it was basically useless. I
only point this out to question your hypothesis that most of Utah would like to
continue to support illegal alien trespassers.Why would you have any
reason to believe a NEW LAW would be enforced when the old law isn't?Even IF the "new" guest worker law COULD be implemented, what makes
you think illegal alien trespassers would "sign up"?I live
and work all around MANY illegal aliens and can say "no, they don't sign
up" for stuff (unless its free stuff).I understand COMPLETELY
how powerful advocates for illegal alien trespassers are, but this is the BEST
chance our legal population will ever have to maintain our rule of law.Please re-think your position.
Re: "Reminds me of a group of Pharisees."Why bring
Antisemitism into this argument?
As a person of Hispanic heritage, I am very proud to be an 'extremist' who is
against a bill that would create a second underclass of disposable servants.I stand with these 'extremist' made up of housewives, veterans, legal
immigrants, every day folk who have become involved with issues that concern our
liberty.I am the 'extremist' who was the last person to leave the
state convention hall.
I was at that convention Saturday...totally agree with this letter's
Rebecca your letter must have been really good in the eyes of the DN letter
editor in order to be chosen. You were allowed 330 words while most of our
letter are not even considered if they go over 200 words. This
letter is similar to the sour grapes, poor loser attitude that we had to endure
after Chris Cannon was nearly removed by the delegates, but was later easily
removed by the republican primary voters. Then we had to put up with the sour
grapes of those that supported Sen Bennett when the delegates easily removed him
from the ballot last year. Sen Bennett and his financial contributors, took it
really hard. Pretending that you know what the delegates that didn't
show up and what those that left would do is pure speculation. HB116 could have
passed with even more votes. I sat in the Utah County section and noticed a few
on the rows in front of me that didn't vote at all. Some I think were confused
about whether a vote for the repeal meant that you were in favor of illegal
immigration.Finally concerning those that weren't there. You snooze
Very well thought out letter to the editor from Rebekah Griffin. I was also a
delegate and am saddened that the vote is not more representative of the
majority of Utahns whether they left early, didn't go to their caucus to become
elected or whatever their reason. Realistically what on earth are we going to do
besides have a plan to make it all work together without casting them all out.
It just won't happen. The bill needs work and the Legislature will change and
improve it. Let's get behind them. It won't be taken down.
The delegates were a sampling of the broader universe of Utah voters and
represented their neighbors accordingly. That's why this caucus convention
system works so well. It's constitutional representative government in action.
If you are unhappy with the results, get involved and contact your neighborhood
precinct representative and let them know. You can find that information on the
Utah GOP or County GOP website where you reside.
@suzanne merrill "...without casting them all out. It just
won't happen."So what do we do with the many who would not
qualify for the program or who realize that signing up would be far more
disadvantageous than advantageous? Prosecute, fine, confiscate, incarcerate,
deport? According to you, "It just won't happen." So
what good is HB116 then -- except to call evil good and good evil and to attract
hundreds of thousands more illegal invaders to the state of Utah?No,
we don't accept the notion that the bill merely "needs work" and that
we can "change and improve it." It is not a coincidence that the bill
"needs work." It is for profound reason that the bill "needs
work." It "needs work" because it is the product of evil and
conspiring men. You don't change a few aspects of the bill in an effort to snow
the people and then all of a sudden it's a good bill. The framers and purveyors
of the bill never meant well for the people of Utah in the first place; they
only are concerned about their own, special interests.And despite
your effort to discourage us, it will be taken down.
That convention was supposed to get out at 2 p.m. It didn't end until evening.
I suspect a lot of delegates took off in the afternoon. One can only stand so
much.My husband was a delegate. Now HB 116 sounds like a good
thing--it's got consequences for being illegal, but it's also compassionate.
The trouble is, it's not constitutional. It's the Federal Governement's
responsiblity and right to take care of that. The argument is that the Feds are
not doing their job. Of course, they are busy doing lots of other things that
shouldn't be in their realm.State legislators knew that it was not
constitutional when they passed it. They just had to be seen doing something
since illegal immigration is such a big issue here. Maybe it will send a
message to Washington? I would have voted for it since it did have
consequences. Since the illegal immigrants were to pay a fine, pay taxes, and
learn English. But my husband logically convinced me that it really should be
repealed. Maybe the state should just cut the free healthcare and
other entitlements for illegal immigrants. That might solve it.
Cherilyn Eager, so good to hear from you. I hope you run for office again. Yes, the delegates are a broad spectrum and they would have to take
their position seriously to get to the convention early in the morning--pretty
much staying all day. I'm sure the ones who left had planned for the convention
to get out on time and they had other obligations. It was the day before
Father's Day after all. But kudos to those who stayed. It is an
educational experience and a comforting experience to see the Roberts Rules of
Order in action on a grassroots level. It's what makes America great. Everyone
should have the opportunity to be a delegate, either on the county level or the
Well crafted? That was not what passed as the conference report
amended 3rd substitute HB 116. That bill was hardly well crafted. Passage
crafted by coercion possibly. The version that passed had no public
hearing or comment. That version was started to be read for the first time by
house members when they started voting on it.3rd sub. HB 116 was
rushed, with the house being told they had to vote on the bill that Friday night
or the senate would not vote on the house bills.If for no other
reason, and there are others, HB 116 should be repealed just to get rid of the
precedent of how it was passed. Agree with the over all idea behind
HB 116 or not, but don't say HB 116 was well crafted.
Love one another applied to both sides. Those who break our laws coming here and
working, and the people that hire them deserve your preaching also. This country can't accept 12-30+ million people all at once. It will bury us.
Most of these people would not be working if they required insurance, minimum
wage and other awards of honest citizenship. They would end up on welfare. You
want to destroy this country, allow millions here, then put the majority on
welfare and social services. People don't support HB 116, contrary
to the poll. It's slavery for business, and rewards illegal behavior. There are
options for legal immigration and visas.
The Call for a repeal is pretty weak. Only 106 vote victory, 61% of the
citizenship disagree as well as the dominant religion. Reason will win out over
resentment and blind ideology.