Quantcast
Opinion

Readers' forum: Who voted for HB116?

Comments

Return To Article
  • The Real Maverick Orem, UT
    June 23, 2011 12:12 a.m.

    Your Utah legislature, at work! Walla folks!

    Methinks the curtain has been removed and now we're seeing the Wizard for who he really is.

  • wjalden Cottonwood Heights, UT
    June 23, 2011 12:34 a.m.

    You have to smirk a little at anyone who defends her side by denigrating her allies. Ms. Griffin's defense basically relies on the belief that her allies lacked the dedication and fortitude to see out the entire meeting, which was implicitly their job when entrusted by their friends and neighbors to represent them at the state convention. If your exucse for losing is that your side is lousier than ours, well I'm happy to believe it.

    As for the poll, there are polls designed to seek out the truth and there are polls designed to move opinion. Polls looking for the truth are often elaborately crafted, expensive to conduct, and kept close to the vest of the politicians and corporations who sponsor them.

    Minor changes in wording can alter the results dramatically. The vaunted Dan Jones 61% poll: 1) polled only 406 people; 2) referred to illegal immigrants as "undocumented immigrants" - which has a huge psychological impact on those being polled; 3) referred to them as "guestworkers" when experience suggests the "guests" will never go home; 4) *assumes* the state will validate their employment status and criminal history before granting them permits to remain.

  • wjalden Cottonwood Heights, UT
    June 23, 2011 12:47 a.m.

    I'd like to extend my prior comments a little. In 2008, Rep. Chris Cannon nearly lost the Republican nomination at the state convention when Jason Chaffetz fell just shy of the 60% needed to receive the Republican endorsement outright. The convention delegates were written off as extremists unrepresentative of the 3rd Distict Republicans as a whole...until Chaffetz went on to win the primary by an even larger margin than he'd won at the convention.

    Of course, then the primary voters were written off as unrepresentative of...the people who were too lazy to bother to show up to vote. I guess it's not too shocking that that Chaffetz/Cannon race centered on illegal immigration, as well.

    Do I think state delegates are representative of the whole state, or even their party? Quite possibly they aren't. What they ARE representative of is the responsible, well-informed and civic-minded people we rely on to govern this country wisely and justly.

  • anti-liar Salt Lake City, UT
    June 23, 2011 1:01 a.m.

    Ah. I see what you're saying, Rebekah: The ones who did their jobs and stayed for the vote were the bad guys -- the "extremists."

    Sorry, Rebekah, but the conjecture also could be made that those 600 who left, though indeed foolish and derelict in their duty, also were fully confident that the resolution would pass by a very wide margin and that their votes therefore would be superfluous and surplus.

    Regarding the poll, many dismiss it as ridiculously inaccurate. It is easy to rig a poll. One way is to screen out those most likely to give the "wrong" answer through the use of "qualifying questions." I myself heard one caller to a local radio show testify that he personally was disqualified by the Dan Jones company for this very poll when he revealed, during the "qualifying" questionnaire, that he has an advanced degree, that he does not read the newspaper, and that he instead uses the Internet and listens to the radio (likely meaning talk radio). Also, the Dan Jones company is well aware of Utah demographics and telephone prefix maps and knows very well where proponents of illegal immigration and HB116 are most likely to live.

  • Esquire Springville, UT
    June 23, 2011 3:21 a.m.

    It is as simple as this: right wing bullies who cannot accept the results of a democratic system.

  • tenx Santa Clara, UT
    June 23, 2011 7:05 a.m.

    Perhaps all 600 delegates who went home early knew what the people knew, that HB116 would be voted to be repealed. Rebekah, how about getting to work on repealing it and getting something like E-verify in place for all employers to use.

  • praxis Salt Lake City, UT
    June 23, 2011 7:26 a.m.

    Rebekah - the simple fact is that supporters of HB116 refuse to admit is that a Utah Guest Worker program is not needed as there is already a solution in place for workers to come to the U.S. legally - the EXISTING Federal Guest Worker program with categories for different work types:

    - Permanent Labor Certification: A certification issued by the Department of Labor (DOL) allows an employer to hire a foreign worker to work permanently in the United States.

    - H-2A Temporary Labor Certification (Seasonal Agricultural): Program for agricultural employers who anticipate a shortage of domestic workers to bring non-immigrant foreign workers to the U.S. to perform agricultural labor or services of a temporary or seasonal nature.

    - H-2B Temporary Labor Certification (Non-agricultural): Program permits employers to hire foreign workers to come temporarily to the U.S. and perform temporary non-agricultural services or labor on a one-time, seasonal, peakload or intermittent basis.

    For those that say the process/program is broken, an article published in the NY Times, 09 July 2010, shows otherwise. Continued-

  • praxis Salt Lake City, UT
    June 23, 2011 7:26 a.m.

    From the NY Times article:
    Immigration and Customs Enforcement conducted an audit of employees at Gebbers Farms, an apple producer in Brewster, Washington. ICE found evidence that more than 500 of its workers, mostly immigrants from Mexico, were in the country illegally. ICE then advised Gebbers Farms of Social Security and immigration numbers that did not check out with federal databases. The workers were then fired.

    John Morton, the head of the immigration agency, said the goal of the audits is to create "a culture of compliance" among employers, so that verifying new hires would be as routine as paying taxes. ICE leaves it up to employers to fire workers whose documents cannot be validated. But an employer who fails to do so risks prosecution.

    After completing a federally mandated local labor search, Gebbers Farms applied to the federal guest worker program to import about 1,200 legal temporary workers most from Mexico. The guest workers, who can stay for up to six months, also included about 300 from Jamaica.

    HB116 should be replaced with legislation REQUIRING all companies to use E-Verify and the EXISTING Federal Guest Worker program.

  • Al Vernal, UT
    June 23, 2011 7:39 a.m.

    @ anti-liar

    I, too, was a delegate who voted against the resolution. I stayed the entire time even though I had to drive back to Vernal afterwards. There were 'extremists' in attendance who tried several times to disrupt the proceedings of the convention. Enid Mickelson did a masterful job in not allowing them to do so.

    You tend do dismiss poll results when they don't agree with your opinion, but when they do, you use them as proof fo your opinion. You claim to "have heard" on some local radio talk show someone say they were disqualified for this very poll because of certain reasons. What radio show? Who was the accusing person (name)? How do I know that you are not just making everything up?

    Dan Jones performs many polls and surveys each year and has experience. If they were to be as manipulative as you claim, they would have gone out of business in Utah long ago. I'm sure that in the past you have quoted Dan Jones polls to prove your point of view. Don't try to defame just because the results of one poll were not what you think the should be.

  • Emophiliac Vernal, UT
    June 23, 2011 7:43 a.m.

    Rebekah might want to talk with the Utah GOP leadership then, to find out why the vote was scheduled so late. I'm sure it wasn't because they thought the vote on HB116 was low-priority. Rather, I'm sure they were hoping that waiting would result in the resolution failing. Looks like it didn't work out their way.

    Perhaps the Utah GOP leadership is clueless. But, more likely, the Utah GOP leadership has goals that don't match up with the average Utah Republican.

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    June 23, 2011 8:20 a.m.

    In any two-way vote, one side will "win" and one side will "lose". Complaining about a loss after the fact only shows that either you did not work hard enough to explain your position, or that your position was the "extreme" position and the "winners" held the correct position.

    Why did we reject a monarchy? Was it just possible that the king, even when advised by his "wise men" only had his interests in mind? Is it possible that the "wise men" who passed HB116 were clueless about the message they were sending?

    Is it possible that HB116 should be repealed because it creates "de facto" amnesty?

    Is it possible that stealing Social Security numbers, using government services, and lying about citizenship are crimes that require deportation?

    HB116 gives a job to those who knowing break our laws. I would like a job. Should I hurry down to Mexico and sneak back into the country, steal someone else's I.D., lie about my activities, and then expect someone to hire me?

  • Irony Guy Bountiful, Utah
    June 23, 2011 8:41 a.m.

    A cursory acquaintance with history reveals that a party and ideology that blames all its problems on a downtrodden minority, that exalts the "exceptionalism" of its own nation, and that worships the weapons of war is known as "fascism."

  • cymrul West Valley City, UT
    June 23, 2011 8:48 a.m.

    HA!!! A Utah politician complaining about politicians and politics in Utah! Welcome to the real world, now you know why we as citizens get frustrated and discouraged by those who are supposed to represent us. So, what are you going to do about it Rebekah??

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    June 23, 2011 9:04 a.m.

    The funny thing about HB116 is that for it to go into effect, it requires a waiver from the Federal Government. So, even without it being repealed, it cannot be enacted.

  • leer Salt Lake City, UT
    June 23, 2011 10:00 a.m.

    Had the 600 delegates stayed, I am convinced you would have seen a wider margin in support of the resolution to repeal...it's a bad bill...all you need to do is read it to figure it out.

    Utah is this country's immigration reform pawn - HB116 is not only an imperfect bill, it's a flawed bill that sets a precedent that will take this state and country down a frightening path if not significantly amended or repealed and replaced.

    A better, more equitable, constitutionlly sound bill is required. Utah can do much better.

  • danaslc Kearns, UT
    June 23, 2011 10:10 a.m.

    I believe that if more would have stayed, the bill would have lost by a larger margin. There were phone polls going around for many days before the convention. I believe our politician's knew that they were going to lose by the polls and that is why they pushed the vote till much later in the day. I do not know why Rebekah would want this bill to pass when so many are out of work. Our teenagers who can work part time and help their parents out with school clothes and extra activities should be working to learn the value of work. Those jobs are taken by illegal immigrants. Why Rebekah would want to force taxes down the throats of citizens to pay for illegal immigration is socialistic. It is time Rebekah stops looking through liberal eyes and sees the drugs that enter the state and the crime that is entering our state. #116 is for special interest groups. It is not for the citizen.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    June 23, 2011 10:18 a.m.

    "There were rumblings that this resolution was delayed on purpose. "

    I think it was but for a benign reason. If you save it for last that'll motivate more people to stay for the whole thing. Since turnout apparently is poor they didn't want to have that go first and then have everyone just leave after that vote.

  • Mary E Petty Sandy, UT
    June 23, 2011 11:04 a.m.

    In 1776 a group of American patriots courageously, but illegally, for the law of their day, declared independence from their unjust British rulers. I see the attempts of the Utah Legislature to find workable solutions to our current federally induced immigration fiasco, as an equally courageous attempt to institute just law.

    Their efforts wont be 100%; but I am hopeful there are enough people in America who live courageously by the principles of the Great Commandment and the Second, that is like unto it. Do we have that same courage today to be such patriots and change unjust immigration law?

  • Watch Dog Provo, UT
    June 23, 2011 11:25 a.m.

    The history of our party demonstrates clearly that those running our party intentionally schedule resolutions at the end of the meeting. The reason is simple, they know that after 5-6 hours, delegates do get discouraged and leave.

    Their problem this time around was that the pro-illegal alien lobby underestimated the willingness of those that want HB116 repealed to stay till the resolution did finally come up for a vote. (It's not that they didn't try their game once again, for they did.)

    It is shameful that our party leaders utilize this ploy to eliminate the voice of those that are simply looking for any way for an honest debate of the issues they consider worthy of discussion. Yet, they have done this for years and years.

    This time, they just didn't count on the anger of the delegates over the foolish passage of HB116. One thing, this anger of this group of delegates will make for an interesting upcoming election next time around! Very interesting indeed.

  • goatesnotes Kamas, UT
    June 23, 2011 11:25 a.m.

    The very Utah County extremists who advocate repealing HB 116 are perhaps the same people who go to Sunday School the next day and hear the "Love One Another" lesson. Their response in Sunday School is likely, "Of course I love everyone, just as the Savior admonishes, but I get to pick who they are." Reminds me of a group of Pharisees.

  • anti-liar Salt Lake City, UT
    June 23, 2011 11:27 a.m.

    @Al

    Well, I too was there, Al, and when it came to the repeal-HB116 resolution, Enid Mickelson actually praised the convention afterwards for its civility. The attempts to disrupt had taken place earlier, and had to do with a completely unrelated matter. But then I'm sure you already knew that.

    And regarding my dismissal of the poll results, the evidence of its inaccuracy is overwhelming -- not just results of other polls, but all sorts of indicators of the actual values of most Utahns. For example, most recognize the plain immorality, injustice and nonsensicality of rewarding illegal behavior with jobs that unemployed Utahns badly need. Most Utahns are able to read through the claims of the wolves in sheep's clothing that HB116 would be good for Utah.

    And yes, I, and many others I assure you, did hear that caller who had been disqualified for no good reason, on Rod Arquette's radio show. And yes his story is quite believable, considering the poll results.

    "If they were to be as manipulative as you claim, they would have gone out of business in Utah long ago."

    Given the illegal immigration, anti-enforcement lobby's determination and budget, are you kidding??

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    June 23, 2011 12:20 p.m.

    To "goatesnotes | 11:25 a.m" what about the Salt Lake County extremists who go to Sunday School the next day and hear lessons about obeying the law of the land?

    Do they get to say "I obey the laws I feel are just"?

  • Fitness Freak Salt Lake City, UT
    June 23, 2011 12:44 p.m.

    Are citizens who want our laws ENFORCED extremists?

    Rebekah - if you remember last years legislative session Sandstroms' bill, when introduced in the House, sailed through by a margin or 4-1. Then the bill was sent to the Senate where it sat, and sat, and sat......

    Then in the last couple of days .....surprise, surprise the Senate leadership were able to pass all the amnesty bills. The Sandstrom bill became so watered down it was basically useless. I only point this out to question your hypothesis that most of Utah would like to continue to support illegal alien trespassers.

    Why would you have any reason to believe a NEW LAW would be enforced when the old law isn't?

    Even IF the "new" guest worker law COULD be implemented, what makes you think illegal alien trespassers would "sign up"?

    I live and work all around MANY illegal aliens and can say "no, they don't sign up" for stuff (unless its free stuff).

    I understand COMPLETELY how powerful advocates for illegal alien trespassers are, but this is the BEST chance our legal population will ever have to maintain our rule of law.

    Please re-think your position.

  • procuradorfiscal Tooele, UT
    June 23, 2011 12:45 p.m.

    Re: "Reminds me of a group of Pharisees."

    Why bring Antisemitism into this argument?

  • M.Sanchez Salt Lake City, Utah
    June 23, 2011 1:24 p.m.

    As a person of Hispanic heritage, I am very proud to be an 'extremist' who is against a bill that would create a second underclass of disposable servants.

    I stand with these 'extremist' made up of housewives, veterans, legal immigrants, every day folk who have become involved with issues that concern our liberty.

    I am the 'extremist' who was the last person to leave the state convention hall.

  • Wendy Braithwaite LINDON, UT
    June 23, 2011 4:22 p.m.

    I was at that convention Saturday...totally agree with this letter's assessment!!!

  • Brer Rabbit Spanish Fork, UT
    June 23, 2011 4:42 p.m.

    Rebecca your letter must have been really good in the eyes of the DN letter editor in order to be chosen. You were allowed 330 words while most of our letter are not even considered if they go over 200 words.

    This letter is similar to the sour grapes, poor loser attitude that we had to endure after Chris Cannon was nearly removed by the delegates, but was later easily removed by the republican primary voters. Then we had to put up with the sour grapes of those that supported Sen Bennett when the delegates easily removed him from the ballot last year. Sen Bennett and his financial contributors, took it really hard.

    Pretending that you know what the delegates that didn't show up and what those that left would do is pure speculation. HB116 could have passed with even more votes. I sat in the Utah County section and noticed a few on the rows in front of me that didn't vote at all. Some I think were confused about whether a vote for the repeal meant that you were in favor of illegal immigration.

    Finally concerning those that weren't there. You snooze you lose.

  • suzanne merrill LINDON, UT
    June 23, 2011 4:56 p.m.

    Very well thought out letter to the editor from Rebekah Griffin. I was also a delegate and am saddened that the vote is not more representative of the majority of Utahns whether they left early, didn't go to their caucus to become elected or whatever their reason. Realistically what on earth are we going to do besides have a plan to make it all work together without casting them all out. It just won't happen. The bill needs work and the Legislature will change and improve it. Let's get behind them. It won't be taken down.

  • Cherilyn Eagar Holladay, UT
    June 23, 2011 5:15 p.m.

    The delegates were a sampling of the broader universe of Utah voters and represented their neighbors accordingly. That's why this caucus convention system works so well. It's constitutional representative government in action. If you are unhappy with the results, get involved and contact your neighborhood precinct representative and let them know. You can find that information on the Utah GOP or County GOP website where you reside.

  • anti-liar Salt Lake City, UT
    June 23, 2011 5:41 p.m.

    @suzanne merrill

    "...without casting them all out. It just won't happen."

    So what do we do with the many who would not qualify for the program or who realize that signing up would be far more disadvantageous than advantageous? Prosecute, fine, confiscate, incarcerate, deport?

    According to you, "It just won't happen." So what good is HB116 then -- except to call evil good and good evil and to attract hundreds of thousands more illegal invaders to the state of Utah?

    No, we don't accept the notion that the bill merely "needs work" and that we can "change and improve it." It is not a coincidence that the bill "needs work." It is for profound reason that the bill "needs work." It "needs work" because it is the product of evil and conspiring men. You don't change a few aspects of the bill in an effort to snow the people and then all of a sudden it's a good bill. The framers and purveyors of the bill never meant well for the people of Utah in the first place; they only are concerned about their own, special interests.

    And despite your effort to discourage us, it will be taken down.

  • Slow Cooker Kearns, UT
    June 23, 2011 9:39 p.m.

    That convention was supposed to get out at 2 p.m. It didn't end until evening. I suspect a lot of delegates took off in the afternoon. One can only stand so much.

    My husband was a delegate. Now HB 116 sounds like a good thing--it's got consequences for being illegal, but it's also compassionate. The trouble is, it's not constitutional. It's the Federal Governement's responsiblity and right to take care of that. The argument is that the Feds are not doing their job. Of course, they are busy doing lots of other things that shouldn't be in their realm.

    State legislators knew that it was not constitutional when they passed it. They just had to be seen doing something since illegal immigration is such a big issue here. Maybe it will send a message to Washington?

    I would have voted for it since it did have consequences. Since the illegal immigrants were to pay a fine, pay taxes, and learn English. But my husband logically convinced me that it really should be repealed.

    Maybe the state should just cut the free healthcare and other entitlements for illegal immigrants. That might solve it.

  • Heidi71 Kearns, UT
    June 23, 2011 9:50 p.m.

    Cherilyn Eager, so good to hear from you. I hope you run for office again.

    Yes, the delegates are a broad spectrum and they would have to take their position seriously to get to the convention early in the morning--pretty much staying all day. I'm sure the ones who left had planned for the convention to get out on time and they had other obligations. It was the day before Father's Day after all.

    But kudos to those who stayed. It is an educational experience and a comforting experience to see the Roberts Rules of Order in action on a grassroots level. It's what makes America great. Everyone should have the opportunity to be a delegate, either on the county level or the state level.

  • Utah_1 Salt Lake City, UT
    June 23, 2011 11:10 p.m.

    Well crafted?

    That was not what passed as the conference report amended 3rd substitute HB 116. That bill was hardly well crafted. Passage crafted by coercion possibly.

    The version that passed had no public hearing or comment. That version was started to be read for the first time by house members when they started voting on it.

    3rd sub. HB 116 was rushed, with the house being told they had to vote on the bill that Friday night or the senate would not vote on the house bills.

    If for no other reason, and there are others, HB 116 should be repealed just to get rid of the precedent of how it was passed.

    Agree with the over all idea behind HB 116 or not, but don't say HB 116 was well crafted.

  • RRB SLC, UT
    June 24, 2011 3:13 a.m.

    Love one another applied to both sides. Those who break our laws coming here and working, and the people that hire them deserve your preaching also.

    This country can't accept 12-30+ million people all at once. It will bury us. Most of these people would not be working if they required insurance, minimum wage and other awards of honest citizenship. They would end up on welfare. You want to destroy this country, allow millions here, then put the majority on welfare and social services.

    People don't support HB 116, contrary to the poll. It's slavery for business, and rewards illegal behavior. There are options for legal immigration and visas.

  • WestGranger West Valley City, Utah
    June 24, 2011 8:40 p.m.

    The Call for a repeal is pretty weak. Only 106 vote victory, 61% of the citizenship disagree as well as the dominant religion. Reason will win out over resentment and blind ideology.