Herbert would be wise, when he considers whether to sign this bill, to remember
the famous words of Thomas F. Meagher, "Beware of the tyranny of the
masses, for it is no less evil than the tyranny of one."In
essence, this bill represents the tyranny of the masses at its worst. Indeed, it
is a case of politicians cowering to public opinion, rather than making a
reasoned, prudent decision that is in the best interest of the community.What we need in this Country is to be led by those who are smarter,
harder working, and more educated than the great hordes of the public. We need
these statesmen to ignore public opinion and do something because it is right,
not just because it is popular. Unfortunately, Utah has been saddled with a
governor who did not graduate from college, and thus, is likely to go with the
populist movement when considering this bill.
What a bunch of baloney!! The usual DN amnesty agenda at work again. If Herbert
signs 116 he is done in this state, but the DN doesn't care. As a registered
Republican and delegate I can tell you that Herbert won't make it out of the
convention in 2012, he will tossed out on his head. Billions of dollars are
flowing out of our economy and they are going to Mexico thanks to illegals and
their pandering bleeding heart supporters like the DN. They steal jobs, they
steal services, they commit crime, and they send everything they can home to
where their loyalties are. And where do the loyalties of the DN fall in this
debate? Read this commentary and you will have no doubt left. The DN doesn't
care about Utahns that is plain, their loyalties are with illegal lawbreaking
Wow! 71% of Utahns agree with a work permit for illegal aliens if they have a
job and pass a background check... I guess I am in the 29% who oppose this
Another unbelieveable pro-illegal opinion piece by the Deseret News. This bill
is going to open a can of worms that can never be put back into the can. Does
the DN even read the posts on their own comment board? The vast majority of
those who post are against any type of guest worker program or any rewards or
incentives for illegals. If this bill is signed into law, the state will never
be the same. We will be overrun with illegals, even moreso than we already are.
I simply don't understand the agenda of those who think this is somehow a good
How tough is it for legislators, our governor, and the media to understand: NO
AMNESTY!We must not, we cannot afford to, reward illegal conduct.Reagan's amnesty was a one time thing. Even that encouraged millions
more foreign nationals to illegally enter our nation. This bill is an endless
open door. By extending amnesty to anyone here by a certain date, anyone who
can gin up some fake utility or rent bills that "prove" they were here
by that date will be able to stay forever. This would be disastrous even in a
vacuum. But with virtually every State around us cracking down on
illegal aliens and increasing enforcement efforts, Utah will be THE sanctuary
State of the entire inter-mountain region.
I applaud our representatives for rising above the intense passion and even
hatred in this issue. Undocumented aliens should not be generalized as being all
criminals nor do they deserve a free pass.Clear heads prevailed and saw
past the unfair demands and prejudices that emerged from both sides of the
issue. The word "illegal" puts an ugly and dehumanizing label on a
human being. Being fluent in spanish, I have come to know the souls behind the
label. For the most part, humble and extremely hard-working people.People who we
as a country have allowed to live along side us for decades now. Cheap and
convenient labor.Our government has allowed our borders to go unprotected. This
hurts both U.S. citizens who are exposed to a criminal element form Mexico and
it hurts Mexicans here who easy targets for exploitation. We now have a
reasonable, educated solution that addresses our national interest and is also
Reagan's amnesty bill failed, and this illegal amnesty bill will cost Herbert
his job if he signs it.
"detractors from small but vocal groups"They numbers are
not what the DN thinks they are.Large numbers of people I talk with on a
daily basis, who know more than what is fed them, are very angry. Immigration
reform, true reform was what we wanted. It is not what we got.
I wonder if people realize our current workforce in the USA will not have enough
workers and contributors to government programs to pay the benefits and social
security of the larger generation that has gone before. Utah doesn't face the
same problem because we have lots of kids, but most states lack workers.In 20 years Europe, USA and Japan will need a lot more workers but the
US will need them less because of migrants that have come here to work.It isn't popular, but it is true.
I've always considered Herbert to be a politician, someone who knows which way
the wind is blowing. We saw this a year ago, where Herbert tried to call a
special session to deal with immigration and then dropped it when it looked like
the eVerify enforcement bill would be strengthened rather than weakened. If
enough people contact Herbert and let him know about the political suicide that
the Guest Worker bill would be, then he will likely not sign it. But there is
always that conflict of who is contributing to his campaign that is the wild
"What lawmakers have forged through the legislative process reflects the
will of the vast majority of Utahns."That's a bunch of baloney.
It's obvious the numbers were taken from the Hispanic community.The
little town of Neuvo Leon will swell to millions to get their work permits and
migrate to the US, never to return. Mexicans must by saltating with absolute
joy.What Herbert is missing or choosing to ignore is the federal
aiding and abetting of illegal immigrant laws (8 USC 1324). Implementing bill
116 will automatically cause state employees who find illegal immigrants jobs to
become instant felons. Same with employers who give jobs to illegals. The guy
is an idiot if he signs the bill.
Consider this from the Republican Party Platform:"We oppose
illegal immigration and all forms of amnesty, or legal status, for illegal
immigrants. We support suspending automatic U.S. citizenship to children born to
illegal immigrant parents. We oppose granting government benefits to those
illegally present in the US. We oppose any temporary or "guest" worker
program that would offer an automatic path to citizenship. We believe that
current laws against employing illegal immigrants should be vigorously enforced,
particularly to stem the now too common crime of identity theft in obtaining
employment."Now this Republican-dominated legislature gives us
HB 116, which feels an awfully lot like amnesty to me and will give legal status
to illegal immigrants. As for the Deseret News, they laud BYU for
sticking to their principles and honoring their "honor code." Why,
then, do they not insist that our legislators honor our rule of law (honor code)
and our American principles of honesty and integrity with regard to illegal
immigration? Why the double standard?The Republican Party had
better decide who and what it is or it's not going to hang onto those of us who
are extremely disillusioned.
It is often said that there are 3 kinds of lies: Lies, Darn lies and statistics.
I'm sorry, but I don't believe the polling (designed and paid for by
politicians) that the gov. is obviously pressured to base his decision on. As
someone who used to work for a polling company, I know that the statistics can
easily be swayed by the wording of the question. For example, one survey we did
was about abortion. If the respondent approved of abortion in the case of rape,
incest or the mothers life was in danger, they were quantified as pro-choice.
Also, the method of choosing the respondents could also affect the results. If
only certain areas were polled and not others, it could gain them the results
they desired. If this board and the many other ones are any indication about how
the voters feel, Herbert should be wary of voting for this amnesty bill.I
find it laughable that they writer of the editorial calls the guest worker
provisions, "very popular". That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever
I don't think our government should be run by one questionable poll. I have never trusted Dan Jones, and more than once other media has conducted
polls that are just the opposite. You don't reward dishonest
So since when can a state issue a work permit? It's nothing new for elected
officials have no respect for technicalities like "laws" or "the
constitution", but I (used to) expect more from the Deseret News.
"It represents the will of the majority of Utahns as expressed in
polling."I'm sorry, but the DNews is not impartial on this
issue as indicated by their one sided reporting. How are we to believe they are
impartial on their polling? They are, in fact, misleading in reporting that 71
percent support the bill. 30 percent of that 71 percent only
"somewhat" supported. In addition HB116 hadn't been introduced when
the polling was done. It is obvious to me that the DNews is
worried that Herbert is not going to sign the bill into law. Why else would
they write this opinion piece now? Lastly, if you do a google
search on "Desert News polling and immigration" you'll see polls
conducted by the DNews and Dan Jones only months apart that contradict each
other. This fact alone goes to undermine the credibility of our new agenda
driven in town news paper.Herbert should be smart enough to know at
this point that any polling done by the DNews is not necessarily going to be
indicative of the truth.
It's a sad day. The voters need to rise up and reject all the elected officials
who supported amnesty. Tomorrow, I will cancel my subscription to the Deseret
Herbert has been around long enough to know the proper weight to give Dan Jones
polls. There are two guest worker programs, one gives amnesty, the
other doesn't. How do they know which they supported? One works with
with the "H" visa already in use. The other would require lawsuits, a
complete re-write of labor and immigration laws, and dozens of lawsuits. It is a
two year stalling tactic. We can have enforcement and a guest worker
program using the current visa available now, or we can watch lawsuits fly for
two years, and be right back here in 2013 with nothing changed.
Legislatures and government officials know this bill (HB116 ) will never see the
light of day. The Federal government is not going to turn over immigration to
Utah. This just puts laws on hold and encourages more people to come here
illegally. It assures a continuous supply of tax subsidized illegal labor to
Utah's business community. What has happened to this country. This
bill is not based on principle, but on greed. We should be wise enough to
understand the difference. You don't reward dishonest behavior. You don't start
a guest worker program while 7.5% of the state is out of work. You don't hurt a
persons ability to feed and house their family. That is the most destructive
thing society can do to a family unit. This solves no problems, it's
just continues to build on the old. That's what the the Utah compact was about,
no change. Just continue to allow the law breaking.
Arent we all immigrants? I am a fourth generation immigrant from England. I
think that most people who do not like this bill are just anti-immigrant period.
I wonder what the Native Americans feel about all of us being here? Or was it
their fault for being on our land before we got here?
My only question about this "poll" is what percent of the people
polled were working class Americans. Hey Dan try polling them, the one's who
take the full hit from importing cheap labor illegally.
not so fast,it is true there are not enough workers to provide all
the benefits promised under government programs, but without JOBS for the
workers, those extra workers (aka illegal immigrants) create a greater burden on
government resources. and guess what? there aren't enough jobs It
isn't popular, but it is true.
The majority of Utahns do not want HB116. What the DN writes is absolutly the
opposite of the majority opinion. This article reminds me of a defense
attorney's position; he is paid to make the truth sound false and the wrong
sound right. DN, I don't know how to shame you anymore than the write-in
posters already have.
The poll conducted by Dan Jones who has a conflict of interest, polled a little
over 400 people. Who were those people? 90 Delegates left work to meet with
Herbert. State Delegates represent the people. The people need jobs. Children
need to be able to work in fast food, men need to work in construction. We need
our taxes lowered and our crime rates lowered. We do not want to be California
because of bad legislation. We paid 455 million to support anchor children of
illegals and it is the illegal who decides where the money is going. Enough is
Enough. We live in tough times and it is to for measures that will take care of
the CITIZEN. Herbert is not for the people.
The Gov. had better veto hb116. I am a delegate also and he will lose my vote
forever if he does not. The DN is full of it, again with this article. Utah
does not need, or want a guest worker program. I will be interested in seeing
how my rep. voted.
Herbert is toast in our family if 116 is not vetoed.
The DN should consider their own poll. The comments reflected to the various
articles on immigration. Like the above comments reflect it seems that most are
against this bill. Which includes me. I promise that I will work hard to defeat
re election of any who voted for this bill. Did you hear that Sen Reid?When it comes to you I have already started! Reid seems to be alot like
another Sen Reid. In regards to this editorial Hog Wash!
The editors insist that this bill does not create a path to citizenship for its
recipients. Of course it does.The children these "guest
workers" will inevitably have will receive automatic citizenship under the
current, ludicrous interpretation of the 14th Amendment. Once these automatic
citizens reach their 18th birthdays, they will be able to sponsor their parents
for citizenship.It's plausible that the very phrase "guest
worker" is designed to deceive. These people will amount to more than
guests, because they will receive rights as well as privileges. They are also
more than workers, they are (net) tax consumers, eventual recipients of
sponsorship for citizenship, eventual voters for the big government regulatory
state that their Republican benefactors so abhor, and eventual parents of people
of the same description.
From the editorial: "the very popular guest worker concept.""Popular" among those who benefit from transferring to the (net)
taxpayer the cost of doing business. Not popular among the (net) taxpayers who
will foot the bill, at least not among the informed ones.I routinely
emphasize the difference between those net taxpayers and those who pay taxes at
all because so many people are under the naive impression that an illegal alien
who pays sales tax for his Slurpee is on par with the citizen who pays more in
all taxes than he consumes in public resources. Such misinformed people
represent the majority of the public who think unskilled, uneducated immigrants
are "good for the economy."
These elected officials have become a law unto themselves. They have received
info that the constituents do not want a guest worker program. Utah was very
high on the Arizona program yet the government did what they wanted instead of
making the tough call.Why make a new law for immigration when there
is already one in place? why why why? Who are these people serving anyway?I wish I could say I was proud of the legislature but in all honesty I
I am suspect that the special interest who is pulling the strings in the
legislature is the same special interest that is pulling the strings which
prompts this editorial
I wonder how the 17% of Utahn's who are unemployed or underemployed (the real
unemployment number) feel about this bill? They'll have to compete for jobs
with hundreds of thousands of illegals who will pour into our state to take
advantage of this amnesty program. To me it looks like they'll never find a job
again.I wonder why the environmentalists are so quiet when this will cause
additional use of water, power and pollution to our state?
Funny thing about this poll. I don't believe it's results. I have not spoken
to ONE person that thinks letting the illegals that are here illegally stay here
with a "permit" from Utah is a good idea. Herbert will loose my vote
and many others if he signs the 116 bill into law. People should be punished
for breaking the law regardless of race, sex, country of origin or social
status. I have to follow the laws and so should everyone else (including the
Where are the stats stating "most Utahns don't want this bill"? Is
there a legitimate poll out there stating such evidence? Is the "most
Utahn's" crowd the same bunch that hijacks the Republican state conventions
every election cycle? I believe most Utahns don't participate in the process at
the level necessary to truly make their wants known. As a current resident of
Mississippi who owns a home in Utah and eventually plans to return, I'm
interested in the politics of the state. I wouldn't vote for Gary Herbert for a
variety of reasons, but I don't think this is one of them. I will be
investigating this bill more, but it sounds like progress to me. Immigration is
a very complicated issue and more that just the 60 second sound bites most often
I am a GOP State delegate and I definitely support guest worker programs.I do not fear immigrants and it is indelibly clear to me that every
person commenting on this article descended from immigrants who came to this
land seeking better opportunities.I honestly do not understand the
elitism, rancor, prejudice, and short-sighted scapegoating that attempts to pin
all of our society's current ills on the same sort of immigrant hopes that
brought most of our ancestors to these very lands.It reminds me of
the Zoramites with their proud and blinding hypocritical speeches on their
Rameumptom in the Book of Mormon where they thanked God for having made them
"better" somehow from the beginning than their less fortunate
neighbors.Perhaps those of us less filled with thoughtless anger and
surprising misperceptions are less vocal, but if Dan Jones were to call me I
would certainly support reasonable legislation like this and I, for one, am
grateful to hear that I have other fellow-citizens with this perspective as
well.It's too bad that it's usually the angry and contentious that
are the most motivated to comment here.
Amnesty isn't just citizenship. To a person here illegally just for the work,
amnesty is being allowed to stay and work. Robles and Yapias have told Utah they
are just here for the work. This is the promise of amnesty, to keep
people here until they realize it's going to die in court. And that is cruel.
You are manipulating people to maintain a surplus of labor. It's not compassion,
it's selfish greed.
JP71,your ancestors came here legally, as did mine.Why
do insist on lumping illegal immigrants in with legal immigrants. LEGAL immigrants are MORE than welcome. They have already DEMONSTRATED a
respect for our laws by going through the LEGAL process to immigrate.Stop trying to obsfuscate by lumping all immigrants into one basket.
We should open Utah to all Mexicans that come here illegally. Why not? We need
more cheap labor to drive prices down. If I can pay someone 10 bucks to cut my
grass instead of 30 bucks whats wrong with that?
Utah should be an example to the nation::::: LOL hahahahaha
DavisMan, question. Can you give me the name of any "working class
American" that is going to be willing to work at McDonalds or pick cherries
or milk the cows. I keep hearing people such as you complain about all the jobs
that are being taken by imigrants. What jobs. All the good paying manufacturing
jobs have gone away because you are willing to give your money to Wallmart and
China. We need to control our borders but maybe we also need to be willing to be
a part of the solution. Stop complaing about things that you you are not willing
to help solve.
Bill Wright is a dairy man The reason for his bill is evedent. He uses imagrants
to do his work at a low wage.Everyone I know is against this bill unless they
are benifiting financialy from ilegal imagration.
You forgot to mention and give credit to Representative Sandstrom in your
editorial. He has work tirelessly and with great statesmanship through this
whole devisive process. Thanks Rep. Sandstrom
I don't know who writes these editorials But never in my life have I seen such
one sided bunch of clap trap presented a newspaper. Where is the compassion for
the TAX payer who has to foot the bill for all this? What will you do when the
hospital has to close the emergency room or close the hospital. It's happening
in California already. Who pays the bill when your identity is stolen? The
Taxpayer! Who pays for the extra jails? The Taxpayer! Why should the honest
Legal Taxpayer be penalized for illegals? Think about it-if you are a Taxpayer
you should be enraged over this. Are You?
Lost in DC,My ancestors came when the U.S. allowed a much larger
amount of immigrants in the country and they were helped by the Perpetual
Immigration Fund from the LDS Church. Now it can take years to get a
"No" on an application. I agree that people should not come in
illegally but the system is broken. Mexico is a war zone, and for
many of the people from Mexico the choice was to come in illegally or die. What
would you do for your family? I know what I would do. Yes some are involved in
criminal activity. But some are hard working folks just wanting a better life.
We must have compassion on people that are in need and not lump all
immigrants into the same "lump". We need to take a step back and
look at the human factor and not just the policy.
Did not God state: "You shall not bear false witness"?Yet
that is exactly what the DN does when they claim the bill would: "provide a
pragmatic guest worker program that doesn't create a path to
citizenship."Once legalized these "guest workers"
will birth lots of US citizen children. Since nobody wants to "break up
families", sooner or later the parents will also be on a path to
citizenship. The DN knows this, yet they claim exactly the opposite.Since the DN opposes ending this roundabout path to citizenship through
elimination of birthright citizenship for illegal aliens and temporary
visitors/workers, they knowingly support putting illegal aliens on a new path to
US citizenship.So what has possessed and caused the DN to knowingly
"bear false witness"??
The article gave us a very brief synopsis with lavish praise for the
legislation. As they say, the devil is in the details. I wish the article had
given us more details about the bill, so I could more easily determine whether I
agree with the synopsis.With the limited details, I have to
generally agree with many posters here who are concerned that Utah is about to
reward illegal activity. What we are essentially saying is, "If you break
federal law and cross the borders illegally, you are welcome here in Utah."
This will be interpreted by millions of non-Americans as, "Since the United
States winks at its immigration laws, and Utah is laying out the red carpet for
us, let's pack our bags for Utah!"I think this is the wrong
message, and would like to see Utah help the Federal government enforce its
laws, rather than provide a carrot to circumvent the laws.
HB116 enacts exactly the opposite of the Utah Compact which states: "We
respect the rule of law". HB116 instead places law breaking illegal aliens
at the front of the immigration line, while doing nothing to help the 4 million
real (lawful) immigrants waiting years and decades overseas, if anything it will
make them wait longer.HB116 is anti-immigrant, and anti-law.
Lave, most of the cherry crop is picked by machine. Has been for decades. The rest of your examples have plenty of people willing to work for a
honest wage. Let's stop making excuses for people who break the law, shall we?
HB116 also violates the Utah Compact stated purpose that: "Utah's
immigration policies must reaffirm our global reputation as a welcoming and
business-friendly state".90% of the foreigners who will benefit
from HB116 are from one country, Mexico. What about the millions of
non-Mexicans who wish to immigrate here? Utah is telling them tough luck, HB116
will give Utah a global reputation as not welcoming immigrants.
JP71: You said, "Arent we all immigrants?"The answer is
simple. "No."You are implying that we should allow anyone
to enter the country with no restrictions.My great-great
grandparents were immigrants. They followed the laws as they were at the time. I
am a native-born American. I do not come from a line of illegal immigrants, but
from a line of legal immigrants.There are legal avenues for those
who would follow the "American Dream." And then there are those who
have no regard for the laws and find a way to sneak across the borders, live in
the shadows, and take advantage. No, my immigrant ancestors did not sneak across
the borders or live in the shadows or take advantage. Nor, probably, did yours.
And I do not condone the actions of those who currently break the laws.
JP71, some of my relatives came (legally) from Mexico. With over 1 million
people each year receiving green cards, we are taking in people faster than we
ever have in history. And the war in Mexico did not start until 2006, long after
the bulk of people came here illegally. The problem is this
generation from Mexico has a entitlement attitude, they don't think they have to
wait in line, after all, they are not here for citizenship, but for jobs. If
they stopped coming, it would force business to use visas and honest measures.
We are our own worst enemy, as this generation is going to spoil it for those
who follow. That's fine with me, I am an American.
RRB, so if there are plenty of people out there willing to work for a living
wage I can assume you are willing to pay the price for the products and services
that you receive that are needed to cover those living wages. Not an excuse for
migrant workers just a reality.
JP71,Current legal immigration is at all time record high levels and
has been for many years, higher than when your ancestors came.Waiting times have trippled for many legal immigrants because of all the
illegal aliens and their relatives that have been jammed into the legal
immigraton system by past amnesties just like HB116, these amnestied illegals
crowd out legal immigrants, amnesty broke the immigration system. If you want
to reduce waiting times then oppose HB116 and any other benefit for illegal
aliens.Also the only Mexicans being killed are drug gang members,
non gang members are in less danger of dying than the average American. You
seem to be saying give refugee status to drug gang members.
Strong societies have always been built on inexpensive labor(some free).The U.K., China, U.S.A ., good kingdoms protecting their people.And we
share, our clothing, appliances, autos, and books.FREE LABOR FREE LABOR
FREE the people, well, I am free to choose good.
@sjgfI would respectfully disagree with your contention. We *are*
mostly recent (as in the last couple centuries) in the United States of America.
It has been one of our strengths and defining characteristics as a
"shining city set on a hill" welcoming any and all who want to be
free.In the most recent 100 years we have been growing more and more
proud, racist, and elitist. Our current immigration quota system found its
genesis in the naked ambitions of California congressmen exploiting some morally
unfounded but popular anti-Chinese racism back in the 1880's. It was such a
successful shtick that it was emulated and copied many times over to limit
different populations like the Catholics from Ireland and Italy until eventually
we had the current hodgepodge mess we've inherited today. Now we have those
like Senator Hatch bragging that they want to shut down *all* immigration from
any country if the hopeful doesn't already have a clear tie to the United
States.So very disappointing that we could grow so proud and elitist
so quickly. Five of my ancestors were on the Mayflower but I don't consider
them more "legit".
Compassion is a voluntary act. Any attempt to force it through government
programs is hardly compassionate. Liberals and Progressives are very good at
figuring out ways to spend tax payer dollars but never seem to find it in
themselves to give up a little more of their own. How about every person that
wants compassion start by doing more themselves and stop trying to force there
ideals down other peoples throats through the support of government enacted
programs.Our ancestors not only immigrated here legally but did so
without the safety net we currently have. They took personal responsibility for
there lives and did not look to burden the government as a solution to their
problems.As we have grown as a nation it became necessary that we
control immigration due to the billions that would flood our country if they
could. Millions come here legally every year. Those who want current
immigration laws abolished and allow unlimited amounts of immigrants into our
country are short sighted and fail to see the long term consequences.
OK. The article summarizes the bill, which means the author put his/her own spin
on it.I just read the bill. It blew me away to see how Utah is
trying to circumvent federal law. This bill makes it clear that it only applies
to people who are in the country illegally, and should not be here in the first
place.The legal analysis at the end of the bill makes it clear that
the bill will most likely be struck down as being unconstitutional. I've read
that George Washington had the policy of vetoing only legislation that he felt
was unconstitutional. Well, Governor Herbert, here is an unconstitutional law
you can veto, if you are like minded with George Washington.
DesNews and Dan Jones continue to pander on the side of illegal aliens and
questionable motive. The facts are not being exposed due to media bias. An
overwhelming majority of Utahns statewide support the VETO of HB116 including
GOP delegates and they don't support amnesty, which is exactly what HB116 is.
It's about time local pollsters and media alike started covering the issues
objectively like they used to do back in the day when rule of law meant
I'm afraid the distinction I'm about to make will be lost on most of my fellow
Utahn's who are single issue ideologues. I would never try to change their
minds. Many of these are loud and angry people who do not acknowlege facts
contrary to their close minded opinions. They do not listen to reason. My posts
are never for the true believer single issue demagogues.Having said
that, while I agree with the D News editorial in principle, I think it is
important to point out again the first principle of the Utah Compact,
"FEDERAL SOLUTIONS Immigration is a federal policy issue between the U.S.
government and other countriesnot Utah and other countries."I
will acknowledge also that the Utah comprehensive law is a model for the nation
and that by taking this action Utah may help give courage to national leaders to
do the same. However the key is "model for the nation." Utah can't
solve illegal immigration on its own or even with other states joining.To finish what Utah started, Congress must act.
What good does a criminal background check do if a person has not been convicted
of a crime, which all the illegal aliens who are using Social Security numbers
fraudulently are doing? This bill is a ruse. Utah will not tolerate the back
room deals of politicians (unnamed or the D News will block this message) whose
politics more closely resemble that of Nancy Pelosi and the windy city from
whence one of them came.
"If this board and the many other ones are any indication about how the
voters feel, Herbert should be wary of voting for this amnesty bill."This comment board...like all comment boards....is NEVER representative
of the general public....or even of the readership of the newspaper, either on
or off-line.People who actually think these boards paint an accurate
picture of public opinion and people who think polling is to be distrusted -
even when done by non-partisans - probably have one thing in common: they have
never had a class in statistical analysis.They likely have never
heard of the mean, the median or the mode. They probably think "margin of
error" means how much the results differ from their own view. While the wording of poll questions is important and some pollsters do use
better sampling methodologies than others, to discount a poll because you don't
agree with the results, is just plain silly.By the way, most
independent polling suggests that, nationally, the general public supports a
pathway to citizenship....whenever you ask the questions right.
we need to weed out criminals but we dont need to give illegals a free ride here
either. if they are illegal they should lose the right to be here . only if they
apply for work perment before coming here should they be allowed entrance here
with out getting any finicals help untill they pay taxes and heve been here 5
You know, I find the way the legislature has betrayed us as reprehensible. First we had Sandstroms bill that put some teeth into the law and
mandated E-Verify. It made it out of the house, somewhat gutted (police may
choose to enforce..or not). It was when it hit the senate that it was wrapped
into a "comprehensive" bill. This "comprehensive" bill
contained other bills that are so clearly against federal law (guest program
with a Mexican state) that the whole bill will certainly be struck down if
signed. So this is really a cynical attempt by the Senate and (and
some of those in the House) to appear like they are doing something to combat
illegal immigration, when in fact they are encouraging illegal immigration. It seems to me that we need to have an Honor Code like BYU. The
legislators must be honest in their platforms and when they go against their
stated political positions, we should be able to deal with them the same way
that BYU deals with their students. I don't see them waiting till after
graduation to take them to task. Why should we?
This bill is the exact opposite of what Utah citizens want and if Herbert signs
it, he will not get my vote in the next election. We do not want a bill that
allows people to immigrate here and not have to apply for citizenship. If they
plan to live here to have a better life, then do it legally and completely. I
would have absolutely no problem if every illegal in the United States marched
down to Immigration and got their paperwork in order and did whatever it took to
be here legally, even if that means going home and coming back in with the
proper documentation. Utah needs to uphold current immigration law and if the
Federal government doesn't want to make it easier for immigrants to become
citizens that is their choice, but we should not be trying to find ways to
circumvent the Federal laws already in place.
@facts_r_stubbornNice tactic. I'll need to try that sometime. Just
say that "what I'm about to say will be lost on most here" and
essentially shield myself from being called to the carpet. Because after all,
I'll be operating on a higher plain. I completely disagree with the
notion that giving illegals a back door path to citizenship at the federal level
is a good idea.Just because I disagree with you on the topic does
not mean I am loud, angry, nor closed minded. It only means I disagree with you
based on my experiences and the research I have done. To write people off and
degrade them through labels is a pretty classless move on your part.
The Utah Solution: same as the solution in California, which has lead to more
Americans leaving that state than entering.I am all for the
"Utah Solution" for three reasons:1) It completely puts
the lie to the claim of the open borders wackos that immigration is a
"federal issue." They're happy with making it a state issue, so long
as that means more cheap labor.2) It will be thrown out by the
courts, and the state legislature will have to justify the cost of defending it.
They can't.3) It ensures that immigration will be front and center
during the 2012 elections, which will not benefit Herbert, Hatch or all the
neofeudalist/cheap labor proponents in the state legislature.This
law will not make Utah a model for the country, anymore than our 19th Century
version of marriage did. What it will do is once again make us its laughing
stock.Furthermore, I expect all of the state legislators who voted
for this bill to move into neighborhoods where they can be surrounded by the
illegal immigrants they purport to love. Any other choice will demonstrate their
Hunt:Actually, the pioneers in 1847 entered a foreign country,
without permission. I've heard all kinds of nuanced explanations
trying to diminish or otherwise complicate the issue (much like the array of
rationale we hear today on immigration), but the simple, unalterable fact is in
1847 this was Mexico, and the pioneers came here uninvited.Fact is
fact. A very simple edict - obey the law. (Well... unless it is 1847 and
you're inspired by the Almighty.)
Read the bills & laws. Yes find a way to make Utah better. Why not let
human being be part of our country especially if they prove their value. Should
they have to prove anything? Well at least there is a way.Right now
a much bigger event is happening in Utah history. The Governor and Law makers
are attempting to make us, WE THE PEOPLE (who pay their bills) more and more
insignificant. Again, Read the bills and laws. Thanks!
Jimhale, The comment boards are sometimes a representation of the general
public...to claim "never" (or even always) in regard to any group of
people is inherently flawed logic. Just because you disagree with
my views doesn't give you the right to insinuate that I am uneducated
("People who actually think these boards paint an accurate picture of
public opinion and people who think polling is to be distrusted - even when done
by non-partisans - probably have one thing in common: they have never had a
class in statistical analysis.They likely have never heard of the mean, the
median or the mode. They probably think "margin of error" means how
much the results differ from their own view."). I have taken statistics
and am very familiar with the mean, the median the mode and Margin of error,
thank you. I don't discount the poll because I disagree with it,
but because obviously so many others disagree with it as well, and it is suspect
because of the liberal slant of those who payed for it. I disagree
that the general public supports a pathway to citizenship to illegal aliens when
so many Americans are unemployed.
Its fairly simple really.........If the Guv. signs the "guest
worker" bill it becomes obvious that jobs for illegal foreign trespassers
are more important than jobs for actual Utah tax-paying citizens!
@DMH"I would have absolutely no problem if every illegal in the
United States marched down to Immigration and got their paperwork in order and
did whatever it took to be here legally..."Yeah, but you see...
that's not what they want. They don't want citizenship as was reported recently
in the DNews. They just want to be able to exist in the land of the free and
the home of the brave without necessarily becoming citizens or even legal. This
becasue they have essentially ruined their own country, from which they've
escaped, due to abject neglect of the values we hold dear as outlined in the
Constitution and other documents.
A significant reason Mexico is in upheaval now is because after NAFTA a
multitude of Mexican corn farmers were displaced by much, much cheaper US grown
corn.To some extent they turned to an export market - drugs - and
sought alternative means of employment, namely labor in the US.
@10ccReally? Mexico had no law against illegal immigration into the
territory now known as Utah back in 1847. So I fail to see what point you are
trying to make.
Apparently 70% of Utahn's agree with a comprehensive, compasionate approach, but
30% of Utahns want an enforcement only vindictive. However those 30% are
extremely passionate in their views, and the 70% agree with the Utah Compact,
but they don't stay let the issue keep them up at night.
@jimhale said, "They probably think "margin of error" means how
much the results differ from their own view."This is totally
true. Particulary of the posts from the single issue demagogue bloggers on this
article. Notice how they always claim to speak for "all or the vast
majority of Utahn's agree with my narrow warped view of reality." These
statements are arrogant at best and clearly lies at worst. I can
have study after study and poll after poll proving they are wrong, and all they
can say is that the poll must be rigged in some vast conspiracy, where every
media member, professor, pollster and politician is corrupt. Every one is crazy
except for those who agree with their parochial views. Their vision extends
about two inches past their nose.The fact is the majority of people
are not crazed ideologues. They are just busy raising their families, working at
their jobs, serving in the their churches. And yes often, because they are busy
they often neglect their civic duties, and they certainly don't waste time
blogging, except for those of us who feel compelled to challenge the single
issue loons and their crazy ideas.
Hunt:Territorial integrity is a given, don't you think? I don't
feel the need to post a "No Trespassing" sign on my front door to
deter burglars. It's a given that my home is private property. Do
you see other nations as being fair game for invasion? Or does it all depend on
what laws (may or may not) be on their books?
@Alfred, That was my point, they don't want citizenship, they just want to use
up all of our resources. If they wanted to become citizens, then there would be
no problem, but all they do is use up our tax money, take our jobs, etc. This
is why any kind of guest worker program is out of the question at this point.
We have tons of Americans already out of work and need any kind of job to help
pay the bills. The last thing that this country needs is to have a bunch of
illegals coming in to use up our jobs and resources.
In July 1847, the Utah Territory was already under the control of the United
States army when the Mormons arrived. 7 months later Mexico surrendered the rest
to the USA. I wish people would be taught correct history.
BoomerJeff:Is US Army occupation the moral criteria for settling
another nation? When do we get to setup homesteads in Iraq and Afghanistan? I
understand there is oil in Iraq.Besides, I thought the whole point
of the LDS emigration to Utah was to *escape* the United States.This
is just another example of using nuance and circumstance to justify something
that was wrong.
I am also a State Delegate for the Republican Party and I can say that we need
to look for reasonable solutions not sit around and complain about things. It is
true that over 24 billion is sent out of the country each year but it is also
true that over 300 billion is made by these undocumented people and is spent
here in the US each year and 75% of them pay taxes on that money never to get
any of it back. They all pay rent or house payments and that means they do pay
into the education fund because property taxes are a large part of what pays for
education. Only a small percentage of them are criminals just as a percentage
of any group of people are criminals. Herbert asked for reasonable legislation
and the bills that came out don't offer amnesty since there is a fine involved
and a criminal background check. Amnesty is being let off with no consequences
this is not amnesty. Enforcement only will only make the people go further
underground but programs such as a guest worker program will allow people to be
open and help with solutions.
To @positiverealist and the others who are a voice of reason on these
hate-filled boards: THANK YOU! I'm definitely in the 71% that support this bill.
And there must be a lot of more us out there--we just have better ways to fill
our time than spewing hate on a DN message board.I think that Gov.
Herbert may even EARN my vote if he passes legislation like this, proving that
he is a pragmatist about issues that are far more complex and require more
thought than those with the "send 'em all back" mentality wish to
employ. I rarely have occasion to commend the Utah Legislature for
well-thought-out, reasonable, measured solutions but this is one case where I
will do just that.
It looks like Mexico is regaining all the territory that used to be
theirs....and they are doing it with help from Utah's government! Imagine that!
A typical trick of the media is to attempt to change public opinion by polls.
Depending on the wording of your questions and the sample you use, just about
any result you desire can be obtained. People want to label those against
illegal immigration as 'racist', or anti-immigration (like JP71), when that is
not the case. I support legal immigration and have a family member that became
nationalized through the proper process. There is an old saying that applies to
polling, "figures lie, and liars figure". The Des News has supported
illegal immigration and the Utah Compact. But I don't know about you, but no
one has contacted me for my position. Why, because I live in a very
conservative area. "It has long recognized by public men of all kinds
... that statistics come under the head of lying, and that no lie is so false or
inconclusive as that which is based on statistics. - H. Belloc"
The point is not whether the illegals pay taxes or not, or whether they bring
money to the economy or not, or whether they commit serious crimes or not. They
are here ILLEGALLY, and that is plain WRONG. I came here legally, and chose to
follow the rules. Why should they receive special treatment for breaking the
law? Please stop trying to justify their actions. And to my LDS brethren, isn't
it wrong when we try to justify our actions when we break a covenant or
I am always hearing about these polls in the media. How come I am never polled?
I doubt the majority is polled. I think they call 500 hundred people to get a
guesstimate and go from there. That does not make it a valid poll.
This bill is unconstitutional. The state of Utah cannot issue visas. It
essentially has the state of Utah aiding those entering our country illegally -
specifically countering federal law. This is limited to the federal government
perview. This point alone is why it should not have passed and why the governor
should veto it.
Contrary to John Charity Spring I think these are by far the best pieces of
legislation we could hope for. The guest worker program is a key to
comprehensive immigration reform. More stringent penalties for employers who
ignore the law is another.For a Republic to work we need educated
masses. We also need respect for the rule of law balanced with kindness and
charity. That is what this set of bills creates. This is not a
quick bowing to the demands of one faction as was seen in Arizona. This is a
I never thought hate and anger for fellow children of God was a value taught be
Jesus Christ. The second commandment is to "Love thy neighbor".
Sadly, most of the die-hard "anti-amnesty" people fail this.
RRB, If the Obama administration stops the implementation of HB116 it
will be used against Obama in 2012. It will be a hard sell for him to stop this
program. He might, but it would cost a lot politically.
mohokat, The only thing these comments reflect is that the vocal,
motivated by passion people generally hate people based on the location of their
birth, and distrust people based on the color of their skin. There
are lots of other people who are sick and tired of people who put more weight in
political than religious leaders. People who are tired of those who do not heed
the council to love others that is preached by President Monson and others,
people who ignore the command to "love thy neighbor".There
are lots of people who really do love, they are just drowned out by a few
die-hard politicos who may claim to be Latter-day Saints but when the principals
of their political party and the principals of God come in conflict, they always
chose their party.
The 12th Article of Faith of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints(LDS) reads as follows: "We believe in being subject to kings,
presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the
law." This is the scriptural basis of the LDS Church for obeying,
honoring, and sustaining the law of the land. I assume this applies to all the
laws of the land--not just selected ones.