I'm weary of the "BYU can't play on Sunday" discussion in March
Madness. HALF of the games are not on Sunday, until the final four, and then
NONE of the games are on Sunday. That's just a cheap excuse to continually
ignore the Cougars. They used to say BYU couldn't win because they had too many
returned missionaries on the team; now they say returned missionaries are an
unfair advantage. No matter what, if you don't like BYU (usually because they
regularly beat your team) any reason will do. Go Cougars!!
Sounds like wishful thinking from a Utah homer who's hoping that BYU will pack
it in so the Utes don't have to live in the shadow of the Cougars any long.
With the OSU football scandal, I think more and more people want more shools
like BYU, people with HONOR and morals.
Sure, Just not in the PAC12, Big12, Big10, SEC, Big East or ACC.Only
in little known "conference" call the WWC (I think that's what they
call it) and only in basketball.Hope this cleared up any questions
you might have had.
Why are Utah homers so anxious to see BYU abandon sports?Have the
Utes lived in the shadow of the Cougars so long that the Utes have given up and
are simply hoping the Cougars will go away?
BYU isn't the only team in the country that won't play on sundays.
hedgehog"I think..."That's new.When are you going to stop spamming BYU articles like you promised you would?
I think the publicity of late has proven what we want the world to know. Yes,
there are still kids out there who want to and can live up to high moral
standards, and consequences do occur when we don't live up to our written
commitments. Kids going to BYU should realize they let down a whole lotta
people, not just themselves, when they do break the honor code, also. Yes,
collegiate sports create challenges, but I, for one, hope BYU will continue to
be a national collegiate sports contender for years to come. Go, Cougars!
Once again Doug writes an article using flawed logic. Doug, the NCAA will deal
with the headache of scheduling BYU, because ultimatley they care about money.
BYU brings a crowd everwhere they go, and the NCAA knows that. Bronco said that
having an HC is an advantage in recruiting, because he can recruit a more mature
athlete, and that has obviously paid off in recent years. The HC is a stepping
stone, not a stumbling block, for BYU athletics. The recruiting pool is not
getting smaller; it is getting bigger. The life blood of BYU recruits are LDS
kids, and the LDS church is continuing to grow at an alarming rate. Think the
good b-ball player from NC who is considering BYU. He is a convert. That is one
example of many. Sports are used as a missionary tool by the school, and the
good publicity far outweighs the bad. Doug, please stop writing articles for
Deseret News. I have never read a more flawed writer than you.
As long as it makes money BYU will keep division 1 sports. If the athletic
department ever starts showing up in the red then you could see some sports
getting dropped. Being independent will not hurt BYU in football and the WCC
will be a good fit for the basketball team. Also for those who are accusing Mr.
Robinson of being a Ute homer I am pretty sure he graduated from Utah State,
don't get the two mixed up.
At BYU athletics exist because of the university. If athletics no longer fits
into the mission of BYU then the church will end them. Let the lessons of Ricks
College be a warning and a reminder to all of the faithful. The LDS Church will
decide BYU's fate and if athletics becomes a burden or a distraction they will
Oh brother. Does anyone approve these articles before they come out?
Just wait until the church doubles in size, then BYU will have 4% of the nations
athletes all to itself!
@JayDogg: I agree with your points in a way because I'm also a deeply dedicated
BYU fan (and I assume that you are too). But I disagree with you that Doug's
article is "deeply flawed"; he's trying to point out that BYU's goal
of maintaining its religious principles is increasingly incongruous with the
money- and winning-driven world of college sports.So, while I do
agree with you that BYU does bring in money because of LDS sports fans
worldwide, much of the rest of the country overlooks that fact because of the
attention BYU gets instead because of other things, like the honor code and
policy about not playing on Sundays. This does not mean that Doug's writing is
"deeply flawed" or that he's trying to belittle BYU.
The more likely reason athletics were eliminated at Ricks College when it moved
from a 2 year college to a 4 year university is the church didn't want BYU and
BYU-I competing for the same athletes.When it was a junior college,
Ricks became a feeder school to BYU. When Ricks became a four year school, it
would have become a competitor.Athletics at BYU is helping to
fulfill the mission of the school and the church by helping to spread the gospel
message.As long as BYU athletics continues to produce more good than
negative, sports will continue to thrive at BYU.
Whats the line? The only bad publicity is no publicity.Thank you,
National Press. You just performed a highly publicized pre-screening on behalf
of BYU for their athletes of the future. Sure, a few more athletes will stay
away, but all the hoopla will also have the effect of attracting high-character
athletes from a wider demographic who otherwise never would have known or been
interested in BYU.The LDS Church and BYU will never drop
intercollegiate spots. The Ricks deal was a different matter; BYU is the
flagship of the franchise and is therefore in a completely different situation.
And Church leaders aren't afraid of negative publicity. If so, there wouldnt be
an honor code or, at the very least, it wouldnt be enforced. Sunday
play? Not a problem. It would likely work to the advantage of the church and
school to have to forfeit games every year in the name of a principle.BYU fans know the drill. Sports are not the end game. Theyre a fun diversion,
but in the grand scheme of things, they are only that. Winning isnt the only
thing. Its just a thing.
What a absurd premise. BYU and the Church received a lot of positive press from
this issue, even from Jon Stewart. The BYU's position was juxtaposed with the
situation at Northwestern. BYU came our well in the press vs. Northwestern.
Someone has to have standards and live by them.
Obviously the LDS Church is benefiting from adhering to its moral Honor Code,
why would it choose to remove itself from the spotlight like that? There will
always be those who enjoy cheering for the kids who have values.
Ugh ... this is like those late summer articles that get written while we are
all awaiting football season to FINALLY start. They have to write something, BUT
there's really nothing to write about yet. I guess there is a point to the MWC
Tournament after all.
The article sounds more like the author is trying to beat a dead horse and raise
controversy to generate interest. BYU athletics will continue to grow and
increase in the national spotlight. The honor code will be a positive recruiting
tool overall. Just like BYU is there so young men and women who profess high
moral standards can have a place to pursue their education with far less
"garbage" around them, the athletics dept. is there so athletes
involved in all sports who are looking for a similar experience can have a place
to reach their potential in a morally uplifting environment. There are those who
would tear that down if they could and there are students there who do not live
the honor code but, overall, it is a fantastic place to go to school and to be
involved in athletics. All the little yappy dogs in the media across the
entire country can chase the big blue and white car and bark as loud as they
want but it won't slow down.Go Cougars!
Athletics was dropped at Ricks (now BYU-I) because the athletics department and
competitive athletics at that level were no longer needed to further the mission
of the church or ther college. It is folly to say that the church will never get
rid of athletics at BYU. The churches own track record simply does not bear that
out. It is not about publicity or negativity or money. BYU follows the mission
the church assigns it. Athletics is simply along for the ride.
BYU is the shining light on the Hill.Just read the 10 to 1 positive
articles for BYU, across the Nation this week, on the Davies deal.In
light of recent scandals at Ohio State, Auburn, Kansas State, Northwestern,
Pittsburgh, UConn., Notre Dame, where Administrators looked the other way, and
made "Exceptions" to their own rules, in order to win at all
costs....BYU is just fine, being BYU.Ricks sports were
eliminated simply because BYU-Idaho became a four year school. BYU-Hawaii is a 2
year school, & still plays a full slate of D-2 sports.I think
this article is a bit of a Strawman, trying to find controversy where none
exists.As long as BYU "Sticks to It's Principals", issues
can and will be resloved for the better, for both parties. The chance of BYU
dropping sports are pretty slim, because of the honor code. The
Crowton era will never be seen again. Everybody's paying attention. The Final Four has always been a Saturday/Monday setup, that is Tradition. Has
nothing to do with BYU. BYU simply has to go through the bracket which has no
Sunday play. No big deal.
Shaden,Doug is using his points as reasons for BYU dropping athletics in
the future. That is his main point. Go back and read the article. Your point
about BYU and college athletics heading in different directions is a secondary
point in the article, and not mentioned in my comments. Try commenting on things
I actually write about. I wrote that the church gets far more good
exposure than bad in athletics, despite what you say. Just go to other sports
websites and see all the praise BYU is getting for sticking with the HC in the
Davies situation. It far outweighs the bad. I never said "belittling
BYU". I only talked about Doug's flawed reasoning skils. If you don't think
Doug is a flawed writer, just go and click on his name, and you will find links
to plenty of articles where most the comments are on his flawed way of thinking.
Or better yet, just look at the comments above. The majority are against him.
"and the LDS church is continuing to grow at an alarming rate."No it's not, the LDS share of the US population percentage-wise has been
steady the last decade or two despite the fact that LDS members are known to
have high birth rates. However, without the creation of a new LDS school there
is an increased pool of athletes to draw from.
This is the worst article I have ever read on Deseret News. I am baffled that
someone would think this. How can anyone sit there and essentially say BYU is
bad for college sports because of their "demands". BYU is the exact
opposite of that for the exact reasons he mentioned. How does he not see that
college sports and suffering because these programs are filling their teams with
criminals and even then, when they get in trouble while in the program, they get
a slap on the wrist. Underage drinking, DUIs, assault, drug possession, weapon
possession are all things we've seen before and they get a "1 game
suspension" much like the crap Ohio State pulled earlier this year with the
"Tattoo Fest" and the players get to play in the big game because they
committed a crime and were "sorry" and "didn't know". Yeah,
right. This is what's wrong with college sports, not BYU.
The committee only needs to make sure that the y is on a Sunday free schedule
for the first week of the tournament. It will always be a moot issue after the
first two games.
Atl 134,I was talking about overall numbers, not percentages. That still
gives BYU a larger recruiting pool in the future.
Ohio State just banned their coach for two games when he KNEW weeks in advance
his players had committed NCAA violations. That's a school I have no respect
Internet rumors and innuendo about the future of BYU sports going away have
finally made it into the press. This ariticle is disguised in the current
conservation of moral dilemma that may face a religious school and their sports
program. What the article is really about is creating controversy and hopeful
wishing by some Ute author hoping to see the demise of BYU sports. Comparing
Ricks to BYU is ridiculous.
To write that BYU was "snubbed" by the PAC10 is simply not true. BYU
was never even a consideration, and therefore would not have been
"snubbed." "Ignored" is a better word to use.
If I'm not mistaken Doug Robinson has a son either playing football at utah now
of in the recent past. He certainly has a bias against BYU and it is apparent in
his writing.But he does make a few good points. For instance I do
think the church would end athletics at BYU if participating in them ever became
a negative for the church, and school, overall. But I don't think that will
happen in anything resembling the near future. That is every ute
"fans" dream though. utah simply doesn't compete with BYU very well
overall so seeing BYU end its sports programs would be the only way utah would
ever be able to compete with them. These are ute "fans" afterall so
the easy way out is what they seek. People like wedgie and christina only want
the long nightmare of their inferiority to end. They have no desire, or will, to
actually earn it.
Please don't use the BYU as a source for a missionary tool for the Church. BYU
and its Honor Code violaters have been a embarrassment to the Church. And no
matter how you Spin it, that is not a missionary tool school. If you want to
look at per-capita Church members, Utah State University fits the bill more of a
missionary tool! Why, they have a lot of returned missionaries on their teams,
who actually fullfilled 2 years of service. Not 1 year, not 6 months, but 2
years. Heck out of the 12 USU players on their basketball team 6 are returned
missionaries, and they returned with HONOR!
My issue with the BYU sports is this:BYU athletes are supposed to be
ambassadors for the LDS church, yet, the only qualifications for being an
athlete at BYU is a willingness to say "I won't smoke, drink, or have
pre-marital sex". And to me, there's a lot more to being Mormon than just
BYU's "honor code", like you know: serving others, being a nice
person, etc. While some athletes have amazingly fit the bill of
being both great athletes and great representatives of the LDS religion at the
same time (like Riley Nelson), unfortunately most are just great athletes who
happened to be raised Mormon and are in fact quite poor ambassadors of my faith.
I think BYU will do very well...says the lifetime Notre Dame fan.Welcome to the I conference...where exclusive TV contracts and playing
Whomever you like is the order of the day...in 5 years folks will complain about
you having your own network..blablabla. Just smile guys...you made the right
choice...just don't beat Notre Dame...K
Why are so many mormons here so arrogant like you've won anything. Your not duke
in basketball and your no USC in football your BYU. Only members of the church
care about or watch byu sports. Let's not get carried away. And second i am
deeply disappointed that no one is reaching out to the young lady during this
Brandon Davies issue. All I have been hearing is how spiritual you all are and
how much you wish Brandon to "get back" or "repent" How
about the girl? The reason he got national media attention was because he was a
good player on the team. If it would have been someone else no one would've even
cared. You guys pump your chests like you never do no wrong and then this
troutman"Please don't use the BYU as a source for a missionary
tool for the Church."BYU athletes represent BYU, which, being
owned by the LDS church, makes them representives of the church as well.By extension, every student at BYU represents BYU and the church.That will never be the case with USU athletes no matter how many
returned missionaries play for the Aggies.btw, there are LDS
athletes at Utah State who are also Honor Code breakers; the Honor Code is just
called something else -- the Thirteenth Article of Faith.
BYU is no Notre Dame Notre Dame is still much bigger than BYU. Notre Dame also
plays big boys and is recruiting as good as anyone. Byu on the other habd is
getting 1 star Instate poly's and slow instate DB's.
Gifford Nielsen, Vai Sikahema, Steve Young, Kresimir Cosic, Ty Detmer, Mike
Reid, Johnny Miller... just a few of the many, many BYU athletes who have been
GREAT ambassadors for the church, yet jealous fans who root for other teams are
too blind to see that. Who's putting sports over religion; BYU or those who are
jealous of BYU?
Don't worry they won't be beating Notre Dame anytime soon.
crowntown1"Only members of the church care about or watch byu
sports."Which of course accounts for the Jimmer mania that has
been sweeping the country and the numerous National Player of the Year awards
that are starting to roll in.BYU received far more positive than
negative press from it's response to Brandon Davies Honor Code violation. What about the girl? She's not even a BYU student, but I'm sure her
local ecclesiastical leaders are reaching out to her if she's sought their
help.Sounds like you're just casting stones because you hate BYU,
rather than having any real issues.
"Notre Dame also plays big boys..."Like Texas, Oklahoma,
Florida State, USC, Georgia Tech, and...Notre Dame?Notre
Dame may recruit alot of 4 and 5 star athletes, but that hasn't stopped BYU from
beating the Irish.Get back to us when you have a valid argument,
instead of hyperbole.
I like how he mentioned that BYU "rivals" Utah in sports in the last
30 years, almost as if to say they have been about equal. Here are the MWC
championships won as of February 2011 (not including BYU's recent Men's/Women's
b-ball championships):BYU: 135Utah: 47UNLV: 37New Mexico: 35SDSU: 31TCU:
28CSU: 27Air Force: 2Wyoming: 2Yeah,
I'd say BYU has "rivaled" Utah the past ten years. And that was in
Utah's glory decade of football. Go back the previous 20 years to the times of
the WAC, and I imagine similar numbers.Back to the topic, BYU will
be fine. Part of the reason they chose the WCC is because of their high
religious tolerance. BYU will always have a home there, at least for now.
Why are making excuses for BYU?? They are a LDS school and they have to sign the
honor code. It's laughable that you have to start comparing yourselves to other
schools now. The point is you guys(fans) are delusional to think BYU athletes
LDS or not are all these fine young men. You guys don't hang out with these guys
in the clubs where they drink and party.
Re: Royal blue She is a member of the church, my beef is
with all these BYU dorks who post their sympathy's and boast their spiritual
advice and "Get Wells" to Davies but not about the girl he got
pregnant? It's a bunch of hypocrisy to me. And yes only members of the church
watch or care about BYU athletics. Are you gonna argue with that???
I disagree with the BYU-Idaho analogy. I believe politics ruled this decision
pure and simple. BYU insiders did not want any competition for their players.
But realistically Ricks could recruit very well. As long as they were a junior
college they would have never dropped sports at Ricks; I am convinced of that.
They built a new football stadium, etc. and suddenly dropped sports when they
became a 4 year school. I believe the good the sports does far outweigh any
Guess what BYU has to schedule better opponents from now moving forward to get
any kinda BCS buzz and they gave to win. If they could not achieve that in the
MTN WORST what makes you think they can do that as an Indy? And please don't
respond with "Because they are BYU"
I apologize for generalizing like that. BYU has fine young men who play sports
there. But my point is they should be held to a higher standard. So BYU fans
should not feel to protect themselves by making excuses. Just repent, do your
thing and move on.
Notre Dame football is on TV every week during the football season because there
are so many Catholics in the country. As Mormons continue to grow in numbers
the national media will respond because there will be money in it for them. And
because the BCS is all about money, they too will respond when BYU starts to
draw a larger national audience. Just as the BCS made special rules just for
Notre Dame, if they see money in it, they'll bend over backwards to accommodate
BYU. I would say BYU has a bright future on the national college sports scene
because every year there are more Mormons.
Well written article. In a lot of ways it would be better for BYU to drop
intercollegiate sports as was done at Ricks Collegde (now BYU Idaho). BYU
proclaims to want to compete at the highest levels and puts it's sports heros
(Jimmer and Jake) on a pedestoool (even though they violated the honor and the
obligation of serving missions as all other young LDS men are expected to do).
So it is not likely that BYU can have it both ways. I am VERY proud that BYU
stands up for honor and integrity. Sadly, the goals of sports achievement don't
really appear to be compatible with BYU's overall mission, so maybe the Church
should seriously consider dropping sports. The fact that these high profile LDS
athletes continue to violate the honor code only brings more ebarrassment to the
school and the Church.
@crowntown1,You miss my point. Talk to me in 5 years regarding the
state of BYU football, and their recruiting. BYU as a standalone is actually
less threatening than when they were in the MWC, so big boys will play them
(early in the season before their conference play starts)I really
don't care much about "Stars" next to a kid's name. Does he fit the
scheme and can the staff develop him. Bronco usually does a good job...lets see
if the changes in staff get him the results he wants. With ESPN on board, A
solid young QB, BYU will make some noise and get a ton of exposure...all looks
positive from where I'm sitting.
Common from someone of a different faith, Mormon BYU haters are strange birds.
I will never understand it, no matter how many ways you try and justify it. The
school is an extension of your faith. Lay off the kids who make an occassional
mistake. After all, none of us are perfect. As an outsider looking in these
boys and the school do a lot to bring goodwill to your church.
Actually BYUHAWAII is a Four Year school. I don't think they had
Intercollegiate athletics all those years but are a four year school. I think
there athletics costs a whole lot more than it would at BYUIDAHO. Travelwise
that is. That is the confusion is how they can justify having
Intercollegiate AThletics but not BYUIDAHO. I would not mind them returning
there. I heard it won't happen. but than again I only heard numerous times
that Ricks would never be a four year school. NEw center seats 15,000 maybe
time to bring them up there. Big Sky Conference or Division II one would be
good fit I think.Eventually could bring Money to school. I do not
think BYU Provoe Or BYUH will drop intercollegiate athletics anytime soon.
How about the thought that really, NO college kids should be playing on Sunday.
That seems like the best answer for me. Pros play on Sunday, when they are grown
men making a living and choose that. College plays every other day. Just seems
right. I thought it was weird when college games started happening on Sundays.
Last time I checked it was not just one religion that believed in a Sabbath day.
Did you ever think that BYU was Right and the Rest are Wrong!!!~Instead of BYU Playing On Sunday perhaps they are the ones that should Not Be
Playing on Sunday.Sunday is not just a another day and it is not
ment to be one of the most roweded dys for shopping of the week.Working on Sunday requires Good People of All Faiths to work on Sunday or lose
their jobs. Yhat leaves them sometimes out of Church for years and or with no
one to take their kids to Church.Laie is Closed On Sunday and for
the Most part so is Safford Az. The public parks are not open for organized
sports on Sunday.EAC (Thatcher Az) who played with Ricks before the
name change, also did not plat on Sunday. In Safford or Thatcher you could lose
your TR Playing on Sunday.Youth could lose their kiddie work ticket.You could go to the park and play catch aand cook food but not play league
sports. Or Golf events.It is wrong as aq member to believe that the
Church should change on the issue.If you have beliefs then abide by
Hey Johnny. Johnny Come Lately. You are way late getting on this train.
BYU will not cave and start playing on Sunday. It is more likely that the NCAA
will cave to BYU. All BYU has to do is put themselves in position to contend
for a national title in a sport, and the NCAA will have to reconsider its
scheduling.Consider the case of Men's Rugby. How many games did BYU
have to forfeit before the NCAA finally caved and changed the championship from
a Sunday? Year after year, it seemed, BYU was forfeiting the semifinal game
because the championship was on Sunday. No longer. And what happened after the
day was changed? BYU won a championship with two or three years.Do
the same in other sports, and things will change. It would certainly help also
if ALL religious based institutions would take a stand against Sunday play.
(Here's looking at you, TCU and Notre Dame.)
Just exactly why the Y should continue competing in athletics.
what a rediculous article, BYU has successfully been playing college sports for
an number of decades. You dont need to play on sundays to make it work and BYU
continues to prove it. If BYU was to do away with sports that would be quitting
and thats just not gonna happen. Get some new material Doug this nonsense of an
article is a waste of peoples time.
" Last time I checked it was not just one religion that believed in a
Sabbath day. "Actually there is, or at least Christianity is
the only one that uses Sundays. Or should we take Saturdays and Fridays off too?
Anyway college football shouldn't be on sundays because that's when NFL games
are. There's a simple separation there. But what about all the other sports?
There's NBA games every night of the week so it's not like Sunday HAS to be
avoided though it does tend to be avoided anyway aside from tournament time.
crowntown1I might respond, "Because we are BYU" if I could
make heads or tails of your rambling statement. I can read 4 languages fluently
but I still can't figure out what you are trying to say. Slow down, organize
your thoughts and try again tomorrow.
What I love most in this thread are the people who presume to counsel the Church
on whether it should allow inter-collegiate athletics in its flagship
university. Of course, in their arrogance they also make the declaration that
an LDS athlete who doesn't serve a mission is being dishonorable. I do have to
disagree with one such person - this latest incident brought no dishonor to BYU.
This is born out not only in the articles that the media published
about it, which clearly were mostly favorable, but a lot of the commends in the
ensuing blog threads. Just the choice of words and attitudes in those posts
attacking BYU's decision indicated that those people are really not the kind of
people in whose opinions I care about (kind of a character issue), and the
rational and well-balanced people praised th university's actions. I
do like my opinions, of course, but I'm not about to tell the Brethren how to
make their administrative decisions.
@"Unbiased" - "Common(SIC) from someone of a different faith,
Mormon BYU haters are strange birds. I will never understand it, no matter how
many ways you try and justify it. The school is an extension of your
faith".Allow an active High Priest in the LDS faith to explain:
Among many (not all) of the cougar faithful, there is a preponderance of
arrogance and self-righteousness which puts off other people, even many active
LDS. Further, it seems that many cougars, including you, believe it is some
sort of religious obligation to root for your school's athletic teams. I can
assure you that such trivial matters are far from the main purpose of the
church, which is to bring people closer to Christ. Although I don't agree with
Rock's article completely, I believe he was correct in mentioning that church
leaders would not hesitate to shut down BYU athletics if it continues to create
embarrasment for the church and impedes, rather than enhances, the missionary
effort. When BYU began its athletics program, many of its trustees had
misgivings. Continued honor code violations or hate-filled outbursts by BYU's
athletes could bring about the end.
Why all the negative comments? I think many of you are missing the point. Doug
is not saying that BYU should or will drop sports. He's just bringing up some
thought provoking issues that are very relevant due to today's collegiate
climate and recent happenings. I've never read anything Doug has written that is
negative towards BYU. So either my reading comprehension is messed up, or all
the negative commenters reading comprehension is messed up.Anyway,
great article Doug (as usual). Let the yapping dogs yap.
BYU is not going to abandon their Sports program! BYU has started a trend by
going Independent. I predict within 5-7 years Schools like Texas, USC, Florida
and others will look at the BYU model and do the same thing! The Money is to big
for them to pass it up. Texas and USC AD's have already talked about it.(see
internet)Big 6 conferences are a little nervous of losing the big name Schools.
One reason the Big 12 has not expanded is because they are waiting to see what
Texas decides to do. Notre Dame is smart! they turned down the Big 10. If
joining a conference was so great, then why didn't the Irish take the invite?
Something to think about!
Ratman"When BYU began its athletics program, many of its
trustees had misgivings"You really think that any
"misgivings" BYU trustees might have had back in the 1800's are shared
by BYU's trustees today?BYU athletics isn't embarrassing the church.
In fact, the vast majority of publicity generated for the church by
BYU athletics is positive. Even Brandon Davies' suspension received far more
positive than negative responses from the national media. How has
BYU enforcing rather than giving lip service to an Honor Code embarrassed the
church?The arrogance Utah fans talk about is really just jealousy of
the Cougars doing well.
gogogoffI think more and more people want more shools like BYU, people
with HONOR and morals.--------------Yes, morals like this...
BYU apologizes to USU for ill-advised Jumbotron message -- Deseret
News (Nov 18, 2010)BYU football: Max Hall reprimanded by Mountain
West Conference -- Deseret News (Nov. 30, 2009)BYU football: Max
Hall apologizes for tirade -- Deseret News (Nov. 30, 2009)
The wringing of hands is way over played.
Doug, all BYU had in football their first 3 or 4 games was their running attack.
While I admit that losing Unga was a big blow, saying that BYU lost because
they lost Unga is an overstatement. BYU started 1-4 for many other reasons over
not having a running attack.As far as BYU ditching NCAA sports, not
going to happen anytime soon. Win or lose, it's still the best missionary
effort the church has outside of the actual missionary program. Sports are the
front porch of a university - it's all most people see or focus on when they see
I'm going to get "creamed" for bringing this up. In my humble opinion
(as a True Ute and a Mormon) the worst publicity ever received by BYU resulted
not from Honor Code violations, but from arrogance. I was far more embarrassed
(as a member of the church that owns BYU) by Max Hall's comments than from
mistakes of choice made by Unga or Davies. I'm happy for BYU's basketball
winning season. BYU's Honor Code is fine--there will be violations (People
understand the frail human nature.) What is more inexcusable is a lack of
humility and respect for all others. This can be forgiven of a non church
school like Utah (I'm a proud supporter of Utah)--it can hardly be expected from
or forgiven of a religiously professing student body or their stalwart fans.
Get off from your "high horse," Cougars.
I teach in a small town that has no LDS members. Everyone I know in this town
approve of how BYU upheld their standards. For those who say that LDS members
or BYU students are arrogant, I say "Yes, there are a small percentage of
LDS faithful who are arrogant, but it is not limited to BYU or BYU sports or the
LDS." I have seen first-hand how people can be ignored, shouted down,
criticized, persecuted, and just plain shunned just because they have different
opinions or life-styles than the predominant mores in an area. Yet, every
community I have lived in outside of Utah has seen LDS members (and BYU Grads)
held up as examples to be followed because they do strive to adhere to standards
and include people from other faiths. It is because of these shining lights
that the Omaha Planning Commission approved the building of the Winter Quarters
Temple. The LDS members in the area had voluntarily come to the rescue of the
city after a natural disaster and helped with both the cleanup and the
rebuilding of churches, businesses, and individuals. In other words. they just
practiced BYU's religion.
Dropping sports at Ricks? Big mistake. Expecting adherance to the honor code?
The right thing to do. My guess is that a far larger percentage of regular
students at the Y run afoul of the honor code than do athletes. Playing on
Sunday? Leave that to the pros.
As Big Media and Big Money continue to engulf the NCAA, the collision between
BYU -- it's mission, standards and religious practices -- is unavoidable. The
two sides will part company at some future date.
Robinson called out the snobs for education , but clearly he did not attend the
announcement luncheon. Utah was also sought out because of their research and
the way the then PAC 12 schools could share educational opportunities. I am
growing weary hearing about the so called Honor and dignity of the student body
and the respect of the sports program when we have Max spouting hate words , (
see Respect Others in the honor code , reprimanded by the league but NOT by the
coaching staff as there was a bowl game the next time that they played), and
then we have the taunting of the Jumbotran operator when they won a close
in-state rival game, couple that along with the major uproar caused by the BYU
replay officials when they play San Diego State. Please give these moral,holier
than thou, comments a rest. I am LDS and active but I am ashamed at the
arrogance of some of the students, fans, and faculty at BYU. Sometime I would
hope that the BYU soapbox would just go away and not continually stir their pot
with these moral victories and superior chest thumping. Please save me
pain and moral lectures.
Be not fooled Y fans. There are a handful of very powerful LDS authorities that
would dump the sports programs in a minute. When they are at the top, they will
do so with little regard to anyone, just like they did at Ricks.
RE: Uteology"Yes, morals like this...BYU apologizes to
USU for ill-advised Jumbotron message -- Deseret News (Nov 18, 2010)BYU
football: Max Hall reprimanded by Mountain West Conference -- Deseret News (Nov.
30, 2009)BYU football: Max Hall apologizes for tirade -- Deseret News (Nov. 30,
2009)"You are using flawed logic here. BYU, as an institution,
did not do these things, they only sought to rectify the problem. Rather, TWO
individual students made mistakes. That's hardly representative of the
institution or the student body. The only reason these two instances even made
it to the press is because they are so atypical of BYU students. Things like
that happen every week at the Big Ten school I teach at and no one bats an
I respect BYU a great deal. The academics is tops. The campus is a great
environment for kids to go to college. It sets a high standard and I respect
that. I think a lot of non Mormon Ute fans are going to grow increasingly tired
and probably frustrated by PAC 12 fans who are going to mock them and have some
"fun" with them because most sports fans outside of Utah see the U of
U as a Mormon school. It could get interesting because the PAC 12 won't have BYU
to mock so they will probably turn on Utah to vent some of that anti Mormon
vile. Here is a question for the BYU folks: If the excellent accounting
program at BYU could only prepare graduates that had to take jobs that required
them all to work on Sunday (I know this is fictious, but stay with me) would BYU
continue to offer degrees in accounting? By the same token BYU will not play
football on Sunday (good for them) but the players who go further will have to
work on Sunday in the NFL. Any thoughts?
The lessons of history are a great teacher. We can and should learn from the
past. Obviously, mankind hasnt; and as long as mistakes are made, hopefully,
there will be the means for us to learn from others experiences and discuss the
issues. This article is one man's reflection about a particular
moment in history and its consequences: a fall from grace and the actual effects
and potential collateral damages. Even though elements of the event have
happened many times before in history and have been discussed and analyzed, I,
for one, am grateful Doug Robinson and the DN have provided this forum to
address these issues in today's climate and with such a wide audience of varying
knowledge, skills, and experience. It has been fascinating to see
all the different ways people look at this latest Honor Code episode and the
reactions to it. Clearly, participants, observers, writers, and readers are
taking sides. And the line between good and evil is being more clearly
illuminated for mankind. The discussion is most welcome, if just by this
reader, who prefers to learn vicariously from history (and the actions of
others), rather than from personal foray.
Dutchman Sports programs in general are not intended to prepare the
participants to play pro sports. A 2005 study showed that 21% of college
athletes think that they will go pro and only 1% actually ever make it.Sunday argument = fail
Y-Not-uOooh conspiracy theory; not doubt by someone "in the
I think this is the golden era of sports at BYU. And I think that is true
precisely because of its commitment to the Honor Code.Also,
BYU-Idaho's decision to abandon its athletic program wasn't based on religious
or honor code issues. The school was at a crossroads with the transition from a
two to four-year school and decided to go another direction. BYU, Provo has
fully committed itself to running a successful athletic program, so I don't see
it going away anytime soon. Still, the article brings up some
good, albeit sad, points about decaying ethics in intercollegiate sports.
"...if athletes continue to bring public embarrassment to BYU."While there have been isolated incidents that have brought embarrassment
in the past (e.g., multiple-player incident during Crowton era), does every
player suspension bring "public embarrassment to BYU?" Public
embarrassment to the player perhaps, but it seems that there is FAR more respect
given to BYU than condemnation when they enforce the honor code. Yes, there is
occasional ridicule about the code from the outside world, but BYU and the
Church have never been embarrassed by criticism about -- nor apologetic about
standing up for -- their beliefs. Considering that it is probably only a 1%
issue and after listening to the formal press confereneces, etc. by Holmoe and
Rose, I sense concern, but not embarrassment on BYU's part....
When statistics are used to document criminal records, you have to understand
the large numbers of players on teams. Rosters for college teams usually carry
about 80 players. Most are there for "honor and glory" and do not
play. They are "water bucket" spear carriers. This means that the
actual numbers are skewed. Fourteen per team in the top ten and seven percent
in the top twenty-five are therefore astronomical in actuality. Teams crry a
two team depth chart with some players doubling over at more than one position.
This means that you are probably looking at number that correlate to about fifty
players. I would also bet tghat the number probably cross function
predominantly to the top 22 players which could mean about half of the top
players in the top ten on each squad had criminal backgrounds.
It might be important to ask: How important is the Honor Code to BYU
overall?It is very likely the reason the University has grown so
large. It is very likely why BYU is academically harder to get into than any
school in the PAC-10/12 except Stanford and California.Did the
recent controversy help or hurt missionary work? I'll bet it helped. It was
fodder for positive work place discussions all over this liberal city. It
probably was everywhere.In the end, this life isn't about winning
Many non-LDS athletes are reluctant to sign up for what they might consider the
life of a monk to play sports at BYU. You can bet rival coaches mention all of
this when they're sitting in a recruit's living room. Yes, they may mention
this, but what about this recruiting conversation in the living room? Just think
about it, Mom, Coach so-and-so from this top 10 college football team says I can
maybe play football with some of the 138 players with criminal records almost
14 per team. I may also have a chance to play with the 7 percent of the players
on teams finishing in last year's top 25 that have criminal records, including
charges for assault, domestic violence and burglary. Wow, Mom, I dont want to be
a monk, I want to play for a top football program and really live.Is there
still a place for BYU in college sports? Ask your Mom.
jimhale,The honor code means everything to BYU. It will far out
last atheletics.Dutchman brings up some good points. An interesting
analysis would be to compare the percentage of athletes at BYU who have violated
the honor code vs the percentage of other students who do. I know those numbers
are not reported, but it would be interesting to see the comparison.
Although I am a lifetime member of the Cougar Club, i have concluded that
multi-million dollar big time sports are not compatible with the honor code. The
move to a smaller confernce for basketball is a good first step. The BCS is not
worth what it takes to get there.
BYU has already dropped swimming and track - two big sports. I can see dark
clouds on the horizon for the Y as the NCAA moves into more sunday play. Also, I
think this Brandon Davies deal is going scare alot of African American mothers
to death (fair or not) and they will steer their kids elsewhere. Just guessing
but I am thinking 10 more years and BYU is out of NCAA competition. I don't see
the NCAA making any special rules for the Y anymore... i think the missionary
exemption will be the next casulty.
Doug is great.BYU can do what it wants and I don't see them dropping
sports anytime soon.G-force: liked your comment. But let's look at
the flip side. Most moms like discipline, but they like forgiveness too.
Especially when it means their sons get to play in the NCAA tourney. If their
kid is kicked off for violating a rule, perhaps a rule that doesn't make
doctrinal sense to her or her son, she may regret telling her son to "live
like the monk." jimhale, another reason why BYU is academically
more difficult to get into is that it's a private institution and therefore
doesn't have the obligations of a state run school (such as Utah/USU). IMO, if
the honor code has anything to do with admissions becoming more difficult, it is
because of LDS raised kids who are taught that BYU is the only school for which
they can "stay good." Therefore, those going there are already steeped
in the belief system. I would think this has less to do with non-LDS individuals
wanting an honor code (save those international students who are grateful to be
studying in the states).
@ patriotWhoa friend! Afraid that you are a bit premature with
your pronouncements about the "demise" of swimming and track programs.
As a grandfather of a track athlete, I was very interested to learn of this
MiP,Good points. From what I have read of Brandon Davies'
background, his Mom sent him to BYU for the academics and the honor code. Also,
Michael Lloyd's mother is totally supportive of BYU, even though her son was
basically asked to leave the basketball team.
Doug, you made one comment about the criteria as to why BYU did not go to the
PAC10. "In the end, the considerations for membership seemed
to be dictated by TV sets (read: money), Sunday play, political leanings (read:
too conservative for the liberal Pac-10 crowd), and, according to some snobs,
academics."There is no question that BYU wins on TV sets and
potential money that can be generated. But they lose on Sunday play and
politics. The academic thing is not a snob thing, it is an attempt to justify
the bigotry and religion and politics. No other reason.The bottom
line, deal buster, only compelling reason, and you really have to go no further,
is one word religion. Had BYU not been a religious school with a no Sunday play
standard, they would already be in the big 12 or pac 10.You can
leave all the on field banter of this team is better, does not make a
difference. Religion shut out BYU. That may not be bad!!
There is a big time place for the Cougs! This is a "rivals" wish that
they not compete anymore. Why not you lose so often to them in every sport.Add into the mix all the praise BYU has recently received and the many
"hits" looking up the honor code and all my neighbors asking about the
church, Yes, there is a huge place for BYU in the athletic world. Do you really
think they took the step to independence to cancel the program a few years
later?Keep dreaming rivals, there is more to BYU athletics than just
playing the game.
What a lame article. BYU has a code of honor, the rest of the nation does not.
Deal with it. As long as this "limited" team is still beating utah in
most sports I don't think there is any question about Y sports. BYU is playing
several national games and is a national brand. That doesn't just go away with a
bad season. After BYU stays in the regular Sportscenter routine
throughout the 2011 year I wonder what the tune will be from those questioning
@ratman, name already used and hailstormAd I, as a resident of this
state, am embarrassed by the continual crude, vulgar and generally classless
behavior of utah "fans". The university of utah is the flagship
university of our state and the lowclass behavior of a large segment of its
fans, students and employees is a humiliation to our state. It reflects on all
of us and now that behavior will be seen weekly by fans of schools in most of
the western states. Seeing as though the pac10 is a higher profile conference
than the one utah was previously in this means even more people will see these
louts behaving in classless ways.Unfortunately individuals like
yourself are so concerned that BYU fans may behave arrogantly that you ignore
the absolutely abysmal behavior of a large segments of utah "fans" and
the embarrassment they are to our entire state.
"BYU embarrassment" comes from BYU administration leaders as much or
more than BYU athletes. Remember the low class firing of dedicated athletic
officials and coaches. The only reason BYU would be embarrassed lately is
because people outside of the church criticize them for getting worked up over
something as minor as sex. The fact the some kids at BYU have sex wont stop
just because you do away with sports. One of the most important
things to remember is "BYU is not the church". Let BYU
settle into their comfort zone of midmajor status and they can continue to do
BYU will always be on the collegiate sport landscape. You just don't throw away
a money generating missionary tool that has had incredible success since the
80's if not 70's. So really I don't think Doug is trying to stir controversy. I
think he is trying to sift the smart wheat from the gullible tares. That is like
saying that the LDS church will begin to tear down temples. No hand will stop
the work from progressing and the sports department at BYU is a huge missionary
tool. IT will be around forever!
Reading some commments and the opinions of Mr. Robinson, and for all those
thinking that this whole "Honor Code Issue" is an embarrassment to the
church, to BYU, don't actually see what's taking place. Though this is
unfortunate turn in a young man's life, and how even more unfortunate that a
private matter became explosively public...we have before us the Atonement of
Jesus Christ being put to use. Anyone who tries to shame others for not keeping
the statutes of the church are hypocrites themselves. As church members, you
must learn to forgive, and bare each other up, especially in a time of their
deepest sorrow...I believe that's what you'd like the Savior to do for you when
your impurities are called up. I reiterate the words of Pres. Kimball, "The
best way to repent is to not have to." But all the same, we all fall short
of perfection. BYU and the LDS Church stand for redemption of sin through the
Atonement of Jesus Christ; there's nothing embarrassing about that.
My problem with BYU football is that has decided that it no longer wants to
compete for championships and wants to chase the almighty dollar.
I'd really like to see someone quantify the "missionary tool" that BYU
athletics is. How many converts because of BYU sports primarily? (And that
means you can't count those who had LDS friends already who fellowshipped
I don't think the question is whether or not BYU should be involved in
athletics, the question is AT WHAT LEVEL should BYU be involved in athletics. I
think the move to the WCC is perfect for BYU. I have never believed that big
time athletics was part of BYU's mission (for all the reasons stated in the
article). In the WCC, they will be competing against like-minded religious based
schools. Perfect. Keep the athletics, but keep it in perspective.
RE: junkgeek"I'd really like to see someone quantify the
"missionary tool" that BYU athletics is. How many converts because of
BYU sports primarily? (And that means you can't count those who had LDS friends
already who fellowshipped them...)"That's a great question. I
wish it was one that could be answered. While I highly doubt there are more
than a handful of converts who attribute their conversion to sports, BYU, or BYU
sports, I know that thousands of people had their first exposure to the LDS
church this way. In fact, I'm sure many others have had experiences like I had
this last week with the Brandon Davies story. I've had several students,
colleagues and friends ask me about BYU, the LDS church, and our standards.
Prior to this week most of questions I got about the church were from people who
knew I was a big BYU football fan. It would be cool to know how many people
started investigating the church because of football, honor code violations,
I don't think Doug was trying to tear down BYU or BYU fans. On the contrary, he
seems to be a supporter of BYU. He was simply presenting the question many
people are thinking about but nobody wants to ask. I have always enjoyed
Doug's articles. His humor and insights are outstanding. If you are offended by
this one article, you must not be familiar with his work. He is one of the best
sports journalists in the state; maybe the country.
"You also have to wonder how patient church leaders will be if athletes
continue to bring public embarrassment to BYU."With all due
respect, are you kidding me?The coverage of Brandon Davies'
suspension was wholly positive. Countless stories were written about how
impressed the writers were that BYU made that decision without worrying about
their ranking or possible financial loss.Every time a Harvey Unga or
Brandon Davies is suspended, the appreciation for BYU (and the LDS Church) goes
up, not down. Maybe BYU should create some kind of athletic
"Survivor Island," where a dozen athletes compete to see who won't get
thrown out of school for an Honor Code violation. Like the curvy
Hollywood starlet once said, "The only bad publicity is no publicity."
Some people stay away from BYU because of the role the Church plays in their
private lives, but others welcome it. It also looks like the NCAA is bending
over backwards to try and accommodate the "no Sunday play" rule. From
what I've read BYU has drawn praise for enforcing their rules even when it
possibly meant giving up a chance at a final four appearance. So why the long
Who is this straw man you're destroying? I'm an Aggie, post-Mormon, and bear BYU
nothing but ill, but I know nobody who says "There isn't a place for BYU in
BYU academics are above the level of the University of Utah. I have this on
authority of at least one person who attended both institutions. I
know since the coming of Coach Mendenhall BYU has openly spoken of the honor
code in football recruiting. There are lots of schools that are in the NCAA
even though they make even their athletes live up to high academic expectations.
The military academies which have more strict rules than BYU
continue to particpate in the NCAA. The end of inter-collegiate
athletics at Ricks College has more to do with its becoming a 4-year-college.
It would have then had to compete in a new set of athletics and that would have
taken a large outlay of funds. The tract-system used by BYU-Idaho would have
also proven difficult for athletic plans. In the Davies case I
think we have an occurance where keeping the athletic program is encoraged.
This has given the Church exposure that is on the whole positive. Maybe it has
caused more libertines to realize they have no desire to join the Church, but
these are not the people missionaries will baptize anyway.
I think RitD may have pointed out the biggest issue in ending BYU-Idaho
athletics. This of course causes us to ask "why then have BYU-Hawaii
athletics". Well, BYU-Hawaii clearly draws from a different pool, much
more international than BYU. BYU and BYU-Idaho largely draw students from the
same areas. If you split the top LDS athletes who want to go to Church-owned
schools in half, than each school will end up with half the draw.This works in other things that are not zero sum games, like professors,
students and fine arts productions. However in the highly victory oriented
world of NCAA sprots, being able to win is key and this occurs best when you do
not openly compete. Lastly, just imagine the bad blood that could
be caused if BYU and BYU-Idaho both heavily recruited the same athlete.
I would not go as far as some and say that BYU will "never" drop
intercollegiate sports. I will say that I see no reason to think that they will
leave intercollegiate sports because of the factors that were spelled out in
this article.To begin with BYU showed by taking their men's soccer
team into a minor sports league that they were willing to think out-side the box
when that would help best. Possibly the biggest factor in being in the minor
league was that it allows BYU to take the soccer team on international tours
whenever it wants. With soccer being a much bigger sport virtually everywhere
but the US having the soccer team tour to build aawareness of BYU is key.Just this week BYU players have won championships in at least two track
events. College sports are a lot more than football and basketball. It is only
in football that BYU is going independent. There will have to be a
lot more repeats of the Rugby incident before BYU even considers leaving
intercollgiate sports. Interestingly enough if I understand the women's Rugby
team has no official link to BYU.
Does anyone know definitely, is the women's Rugby team actually affiliated with
BYU. I have read some things that suggest it is not. Why it is not I am not
sure, but this may either be caused by or cause of the very belligerent attitude
on the part of the Womeen's Rugby Association toward the women's team not
playing on Sunday. I know the women's rugby case is not NCAA. This
is an important distinction to make. If Robinson could point to a case of the
NCAA not holding to the rules on Sunday play it would be one thing, but when it
is a non-NCAA organization the issue is different.
Bluto, BYU-Hawaii is a four year school.
I have known people who joined the LDS church after first being BYU sports fans.
I am not saying this to prove it is a good missionary tool, that needs to be
determined by much deeper discussions. However it proves as false the claim
that only LDS people are BYU fans.
Dutchman, Your preparing players analogy fails because football is not a
degree program. Most college football players do not go on to play
professionally, so the analogy breaks down. On the other hand, most doctors
have to work some Sundays, but BYU still has a pre-med program. I
have never accepted the doctor/football player equivalency, but I think that is
a thought that really is worth considering.
Patriot, When did BYU drop track? They just won two national
championships in events yesterday.
I attended the MTW tourney this weekend and felt a little uneasy about the
"jimmermania" . I saw saw signs comparing him to Noah, "let the
floods come, we don't need Noah, we have jimmer". I saw a fan walking
through the stadium after the new Mexico win with a sign reading "you just
got jimmered".I saw groups of fans litererally bowing to him when he
scored. This was a big venue for a lot of people to see BYU for the first time
as a national power and I think we kind of squandered the oppourtuninity to show
the other fans what BYU is all about. Instead the "jimmermaniacs" gave
them a look at fanatism and hero worship at it's worst. The In you're face, I'm
better than you, you just got jimmered, fans showed a lack of humility and
frankly poor sportsmanship. We are about to journey into the national spotlight,
let's show the country what BYU stands for. Remember proverbs 16-18. pride goeth
before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall. You can all call me a
nut, but look inside yourself and ask why do we play?