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Utah

Mormons need to work to increase favor

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  • dave
    Aug. 6, 2010 3:57 p.m.

    A good first step would be the church releasing it's stranglehold on Utah. Allow normalization of the laws and elimination of the blue laws.

    Visitors know it's the church that forces them to go to the equivalent of the DMV for wine. Forcing auto dealers to be closed on Sunday... these two are just a small sample.

    until these are rectified the church will be seen as suspect. By their deeds.......

  • Kit2350
    Aug. 6, 2010 4:00 p.m.

    Now we're not only being criticized by non-mormons, but mormons too. Just what I needed.

  • M&Ms
    Aug. 6, 2010 4:02 p.m.

    Interesting article. Very good information. But I'm not going to start saying, "We claim" and "I claim" just so people can feel better. Using those phrases just gives people an opening to say, "So you don't really believe it, you just 'claim' it." It's almost like I'm apologizing by saying, "I claim," just so I don't offend anyone. No one ever seems to care about offending a Mormon.

  • Henry Drummond
    Aug. 6, 2010 4:03 p.m.

    While I am not an "active" Mormon I am saddened to see this. Mormons do much good in the world and I'm sorry to see them being increasingly misunderstood. I think that at least part of the problem is the tendency for Mormons today to respond to criticism or misstatements about their beliefs with angry accusations of religious bigotry rather than with patience and truth.

    Criticism is an opportunity to educate. Why don't you just talk about what you really believe in when others get it wrong? If people say you are not Christians, why not just respond by telling people what Christ really means to you rather than railing against them for their lack of understanding?

    Responding to criticism or ignorance with anger doesn't create a better public image, it just does more harm. What purpose does it serve to make charges of religious bigotry against the PAC-10 for inviting the University of Utah into their conference but not BYU? Wouldn't it have reflected the spirit of the Church better to make a more magnanimous gesture? Don't most people prefer to see a sermon rather than hear one?





  • tinkerbell101
    Aug. 6, 2010 4:04 p.m.

    this is just my idea why, I am a member and I get treated pretty poorly by members here in Utah!!! I see judgemental, prejudice, and fairweather mormons here, I don't see them forgiving and kind here!, I hate going to church, so maybe they should think on how they treat other people!! not just the in crowd of the church! it isn't God's church anymore! it is the people church

  • hayduke
    Aug. 6, 2010 4:18 p.m.

    People have a bad view of mormons because they counteract the small amount of good they do with bad. In Utah we see how they say they want small government and yet constantly try to make it bigger and legislate morality on non mormons. Then with prop 8 the whole country saw them try to do the same thing. When Glenn Beck is the most famous mormon people are going to hate you. When most of the faith don't even understand that they seem like scientology light to the rest of the world mormons cant even begin to try and look normal to the world.

  • mkSdd3
    Aug. 6, 2010 4:21 p.m.

    Dave, the church doesn't create laws, and the church is not responsible for the blue laws, liquor laws, or car lots on Sunday law. The state legislature passed those laws. If people like you would quit spewing falsehoods and incorrect information, maybe we wouldn't have to keep correcting you.

  • mkSdd3
    Aug. 6, 2010 4:24 p.m.

    tinkerbell, it sounds a lot like you have an us versus them attitude going on here. Maybe you are half the problem.

    But then again, maybe you are not a member after all, just someone that is posing as a member so you can cast a few stones.

  • Conservative Democrat
    Aug. 6, 2010 4:27 p.m.

    The Mormon church controls UT and your proof is in the blue laws and the state liquor stores? Oh, please. I've lived in Utah and know about the laws (and the perception) that you are talking about. If I use your logic, what am I to think about states in the Midwest and South that have entirely dry counties? Do you believe the Mormon church controls those states or localities too? Or are you suspicious of any area within the United States that is predominantly controlled by a highly fundamentalist viewpoint. The Mormon church does not control Utah or its citizens. It rightfully expresses an opinion and lets the citizens of the state make their own choices.

  • MotherofFour
    Aug. 6, 2010 4:28 p.m.

    I believe this is good information. Most of my life, I lived as a religious minority outside of Utah. Many people were skeptical of me because of what they were being taught in their own churches about mormonism. I don't hold it against them, it is what it is and as members of the LDS church we all can do our best to set the record straight.

  • mkSdd3
    Aug. 6, 2010 4:35 p.m.

    hayduke, Are you suggesting that a Mormon is not allowed to have a say in politics? Last I heard, even Mormons have a vote and can have their say in how things are run. I guess that it is OK to hate the Mormons and blame all the problems on them.

  • RobSing
    Aug. 6, 2010 4:36 p.m.

    lets watch this message board fill up and we will all see why people's view of mormons is "unfavorable"

  • Monsieur le prof
    Aug. 6, 2010 4:47 p.m.

    There's so much hatred and bigotry on this blog that I can't begin to imagine what it must be like elsewhere. I think it's gays, ex-Mormons, and southern Baptists that are the most vocal in their opposition to Christ's re-established church.

  • fuziz
    Aug. 6, 2010 4:47 p.m.

    Here is the problem - mormonism encompasses more than just religion, it is a large part of your social lives. The immersion makes you much less likely to meet other people. Then, when you do, you make some joke about the ward house, which just doesn't interest me, and makes me feel like an outsider. I have several good friends who are mormon. They rarely mention religion around me, and if it does come up, they don't get offended by a little ribbing about their church (you can joke about my religion, and occassional agnosticism if you'd like too. I don't mind). I have met many more mormons who, honestly, kind of bore me socially. They are too serious about their religion in what should be a social setting, and they are too stiff for slightly off the wall jokes. I don't begrudge you your religion, but if it occupies 33% of your thoughts and conversation, we just don't have much to talk about. So my advice - place yourselves in more settings in which no one else follows your religion and relax. And please, don't even think about converting me.

  • Bebyebe
    Aug. 6, 2010 4:48 p.m.

    The legislature had to scamper up to temple square to get the profit's approval to change the private club law.

    Utah is a theocracy. The 'church' runs everything.

    Living in Utah will always result in dislike of mormons.

  • dalep2u
    Aug. 6, 2010 4:55 p.m.

    mkSdd3...I hate to inform you that while you are "Technically" correct in that the church doesn't set the laws, they do have religious representitaves that do...who force their view of religion on everybody else. Come on...you know better than that!!!

    Same for you conservative Demo...you KNOW that the reason we have intolerant liquor laws, No Auto Sales on Sunday is because of the INFLUENCE of the LDS church. Don't bury your head on this and loose the point on symantics. It's this kind of logic that makes Mormons look bad.

  • Gr8bald1
    Aug. 6, 2010 4:55 p.m.

    Thought provoking article. The gospel facts are there, yet it seems our missionary approach and delivery needs a boost.

    Close to forty years ago I joined the church. It has been a huge benefit for me and my wife. Our six children were active and raised in the church. Only two remain active.

    After a significant time pondering why, at least the partial conclusion is that somehow they lost the desire. For a long time I have felt that "desire" should bump "faith" out as the first principle of the gospel.

    If I had a chance to teach my other children again, I would emphasize and motivate desire, reason, and understanding.

    My wife and I were helped greatly by joining the church. Our children still have the principles and character they were taught in their youth and by example in the home. Yet they now believe the "world" has better answers -- or at least easier.

    It may take them 40 years to re-learn the gospel principles and that answers may indeed be found in the scriptures, general conference, church, and church books --- and of course, on your knees.

  • Vanka
    Aug. 6, 2010 5:12 p.m.

    How would any intelligent person ever get a favorable impression of an organization described as follows:

    "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is THE Kingdom of God on the earth, but is at present limited to an ecclesiastical kingdom. During the millennial era, the Kingdom of God [the LDS Church] will be both political and ecclesiastical... and will have worldwide jurisdiction in political realms when the Lord has made 'a full end of all nations (D&C 87:6)'"????? [this is from the Bible Dictionary of the LDS Church]

    Those of us who support participative, democratic government, civil rights, and liberty are opposed to such totalitarian regimes. The LDS Church deserves to be seen in an unfavorable light.

  • Zadruga Guy
    Aug. 6, 2010 5:12 p.m.

    Bebyebe, the LDS Church has absolutely no control over what the legislature chooses to do. The Constitution of the State of Utah expressly forbids it or any other religion from doing anything like that. That is unique in any state's constitution. Thus, Utah is the ONLY state that CANNOT be theocratic.

  • hayduke
    Aug. 6, 2010 5:17 p.m.

    mkSdd3, I am suggesting that the mormon church should stop trying to act like a political force, like they did with prop 8. I have no hate for mormons only the bad people who try to force it on others, people like chris buttars, mike waddoups, glenn beck and the rest. Theyre pathetic people who share a religion and the world sees that religion. I know a whole lot of amazing mormon people but they dont get seen on the public level. You should all hope that Huntsman runs for president so a good mormon can be seen in the public.

  • San Diego Chargers Fan
    Aug. 6, 2010 5:21 p.m.

    It is really funny to read the comments from you folks in Utah -- so much bitterness and divisiveness!

    Here in California, people are great and we have been encouraged for quite some time to be actively involved in the community -- for the exact purposes that Gary Lawrence advocates in the article.

  • The Atheist
    Aug. 6, 2010 5:32 p.m.

    Vanka,

    You must be joking. People don't dislike the LDS Church because of obscure doctrines about world domination.

    They dislike the LDS Church because the regular, everyday members exude an arrogance that is annoying as all get out!

  • the truth
    Aug. 6, 2010 5:34 p.m.

    RE: Bebyebe | 4:48 p.m


    Simple solution for you,

    if do like the "LDS" influence in this state and it;s politics,

    go live where thre are NOT a lot mormons.


    TH fact remains the people here in uta( and the churuch) have the right speak up, the people can to particpate in politics, hold office, vote and make laws here,

    if you do not like the laws you are free to "vote" with your feet,

    no one is forcing you to stay.

    As others have pointed out there are places in the US with more strict laws than utah.

    And ther place with less strict laws,

    and you are free choose where you want to live.

    But that is Beauty of freedom,

    and the system we have here in the US,

    where each state and each community can make the laws they want live under,

    IT's a patch work country,

    and you can live in the patch of your choosing with others of like mind.


    A lot better than the grey quilt the LEFT wants us all to live under, and a lot freer

    the LEFT wants to force all to live by their laws anywhere.



  • San Diego Chargers Fan
    Aug. 6, 2010 5:35 p.m.

    I think the point of the article has more to do with how people outside of Utah view members of the church.

    It seems that the culture and politics of Utah are a completely different matter, even though most of the comments here are about how bad non-members are treated in Utah.

    My advice to people in Utah is: join the military or work for some company that will take you to other parts of the country and allow you to rub shoulders with people of other faiths. Let your light be seen by others.

  • RobSing
    Aug. 6, 2010 5:35 p.m.

    Christ's re-established church!!!??? ha ha ha ha ha!!!!
    That's awesome!

  • San Diego Chargers Fan
    Aug. 6, 2010 5:41 p.m.

    This article has nothing to do with the legislature or politics. It is about learning to speak a different language when talking about the church to non-members.

    If you spend much time outside of Utah, you will either learn that language, or you make a fool out of yourself quite quickly.

  • Vanka
    Aug. 6, 2010 5:42 p.m.

    To San Diego...

    Who is in Utah? Why make such ignorant assumptions?

  • 10CC
    Aug. 6, 2010 5:52 p.m.

    Hayduke:

    No doubt about Glenn Beck severely limiting opportunities for Mormons in the US. He is essentially the pied-piper of the Tea Party, whose members pretty much have their minds already made up when it comes to religion.

    To everyone else Beck is essentially offensive, not to mention marginally rational. He really doesn't help the LDS cause, much, if at all.

  • ironmania
    Aug. 6, 2010 6:04 p.m.

    To San Diego:

    Why do you assume that only people in Utah care about Chris Buttars, or the state liquor laws, or auto sales on Sunday? Are you too ignorant to see that those are the very reasons that people hate mormons?

    It's because we can't buy cars on Sunday!

  • ironmania
    Aug. 6, 2010 6:08 p.m.

    Harry Reid is a shining example of a Mormon who doesn't try to impose his beliefs on other Americans.

  • Grandma Kitties
    Aug. 6, 2010 6:35 p.m.

    Living in Utah has been a challenge. I was born here and lived here for several years, until my husband graduated from BYU and took me and our two baby boys off to California. Hurray!! It was wonderful. Our family grew by the birth of two more boys and we were very active in our southern Californa ward. We lived there for 20 years. I had and have lots of non-LDS friends.
    From southern California, we were transfered to Tucson, AZ. Great ward and Stake were in Tucson and many of non-LDS friends. All of our sons served missions and were married in the temple. They are all active with two living in the mid-west where both have LDS and non-LDS colleagues and friends. One son and his family still live and work in Tucson. One is an lawyer in Utah.
    Thankfully, we moved from Utah and this helped our kids look at people of other ethnic or religous backgrounds with tolerance and respect. I don't know if this would have happened if we had stayed in Utah. Sad but true, some are afraid to reach out and make friends with non-members.

  • Jimmy James
    Aug. 6, 2010 7:25 p.m.

    Right on Lawrence!

    After my mission and while still living in Utah, I was completely under the impression that everyone generally knew who Mormon's were and for the most part respected that.

    Then I moved to the East Coast...

    Yeah, people have no clue who we are or what we believe, and have really only associated us with negative stereotypes that they've heard.

    We have a long ways to go, and a lot of work to do. And to those bagging on Utah, what gives? Utah is an amazing state and I for one am looking forward to returning as soon as possible.

  • Jeanie b.
    Aug. 6, 2010 7:30 p.m.

    We are raising our children in Utah and we yearly attend a different church's services so they can see that not all people need to live like we, as LDS members, do to be good people. We encourage our children to befriend everyone, and they do.

    Parents can teach their children to be accepting or bigoted no matter where you live.

    While living in California I was proselytized by a friend who hoped I would see the error of my Mormon ways and join her religion. I wanted to be her friend more than I wanted a convert to my religion so I didn’t talk of my religion very much at all. When she realized that I had no intention of converting she became very cold and the friendship faded. I was offended and determined that I would not do the same thing to anyone else. I also decided that I was who I was - and that was a Mormon woman. I would be who I was and my friends could be who they were.

    Today I enjoy good friends from all walks of life in spite of different beliefs.

  • Idaho Coug
    Aug. 6, 2010 7:44 p.m.

    To me there are a couple of issues. One is general perception and the other is the historical/doctrinal issues many confront in today's high tech world when investigating Mormonism.

    I travel a lot for my profession and have many non-LDS friends and colleagues. Many hold the typical assumptions like polygamy, no coffee/alcohol, Prop 8, Utah, ultra conservative, Osmonds, etc. When they really open up about those assumptions, many find them strange rather than commendable (despite what we like to think). I am pretty liberal for a Mormon and actually that has lead some to eventually moderate their initial assumptions to a more favorable and normalized perception.

    The other issue is that many investigators will take it on themselves to research the Church via the internet or loved one's will take it upon themselves to do it for them. Some things they find are strange AND false. But some things they find are strange AND true. Many of us don't know how to respond to the strange but true stuff. And our responses can some think we are trying to hide or dismiss things.

    These two issues have been reinforced repeatedly through personal experience.

  • Idaho Coug
    Aug. 6, 2010 7:57 p.m.

    A recent experience kind of brought home what many non-LDS (in high LDS population areas) often experience.

    A family member was holding a wedding reception. One was from an LDS family the other a non-LDS family. After much debate, the LDS mother agreed that the non-LDS mother could provide alcohol for the reception.

    The room ended up being divided between the LDS sitting on one side talking about callings and other ward activities while sipping on their non-alcoholic drinks - and the other side drinking alcoholic drinks and talking about anything other than Mormon topics.

    I have seen this in various forms throughout the years. I have often seen a Mormon who cannot comfortably interact socially with non Mormons. I have a feeling that assumptions were only reinforced for all that evening.

    Personally, I have sat in many bars on road trips getting to know my non-LDS colleageus better - often discussing the Church in a positive way and hopefully portraying that members can turn down alcohol while still appearing fairly normal.

    I think non-LDS admire our standards more when they can actually relate to us. Too often we come across more weird than principled.

  • Samwise
    Aug. 6, 2010 8:24 p.m.

    To Grandma Kitties

    That's interesting. My parents were able to raise myself and my siblings to look at people with ethnic, religious, and other differences with respect. And they did it in Utah. I have never felt I was better than anyone just because I am Mormon or from Utah. I have always been taught to respect others' beliefs. I try to live by this, even in cases where I completely disagree with the beliefs of another. I am thankful my parents raised me this way, and they would have done so either IN Utah OR out of Utah.

    Some in Utah need to work on doing better and looking outside the bubble. But from what I have seen, quite a few do a very good job of it. One thing that does need to be done away with in the Church is pride that comes from some both IN Utah and OUTSIDE of Utah. Frankly, I have seen quite a few "Non-Utah" Mormons show pride just because they are from outside of Utah. I have seen both sides, and neither is better or harder than the other.

  • Bebyebe
    Aug. 6, 2010 8:42 p.m.

    To 'The Truth'

    It's still a free country and I can live anywhere I please. If you don't like that YOU go live somewhere else.

    Your response is EXACTLY why people don't like mormons.

  • attentive
    Aug. 6, 2010 8:47 p.m.

    I attended a very small Branch back east before I moved to Utah. All of the members of that branch were spread out for miles and miles. Home teaching and visiting teaching took an entire day for most people because many of us were 60 miles apart. I was told before I moved here that Utah Mormons were different. All I can say is that I wish I were back in my little branch where everyone really gave an effort and loved and cared for each other, where they didn't compare houses or cars or boats or the prosperity that the Utah Mormons have. There weren't class divisions back where I came from.

  • bloggy
    Aug. 6, 2010 9:41 p.m.

    Nothing interests people more than to hear what others think of them. It's rarely pleasant, but usually insightful and humbling.

  • LDS Liberal
    Aug. 6, 2010 10:15 p.m.

    the truth | 5:34 p.m. Aug. 6, 2010

    ============

    Ladies and Gentlemen,

    May I present to you, "the truth".


    ...

  • P
    Aug. 6, 2010 10:24 p.m.

    @attentive 8;47 - My experience too, but having been born in a State where the Southern Baptists were the majority on the city council and in the state legislature, we had Sunday closing as well (including even drug stores by law.) I was the only LDS boy in my high school and I had (and still have) many other friends of different religious persusions.

    As i went to college, was in the army, worked in varoius places and traveled a lot my background served me well. I have always tried to support "good" things and "good" politicians. I do understand that not everyone might agree with my defination of "good." I have campaigned for people who I thought would best represent my interests and values.

    Sometimes they won, others lost. At the next election I campaigned against based on their record of what they had done or not done, not on their religion (I even voted against Mitt Romney but I thought his dad was a great Governor for Michigan not because he was LDS, but in spite he was LDS.)

    The article is about we need to "get along" better, tolerance doesn't have to be total acceptance.

  • LDS Liberal
    Aug. 6, 2010 10:25 p.m.

    Grandma Kitties | 6:35 p.m.

    Agreed!

    Similar story here.

    Born and raised in Utah (Bountiful)

    LDS Mission on the East Coast (Washington D.C.)

    6 Years serving our Country in the Military.
    [Agreed, San Diego Chargers Fan | 5:35 p.m.]

    And once finished Engineering At Weber State,
    moved to Seattle for 22 years.

    Moved back to Utah 2 years ago.

    1. Utah is NOT the same as it used to be. (Worse not better - as atested in this article)

    2. Leaving the Bubble was the best thing to ever happen to our family.


    I like to think it was the same lesson our Heavenly Parents wanted us to experience by coming here to Earth also -- re-enforces the whole getting out of the Bubble -- learning to love and accept others -- concept.

  • Joggle
    Aug. 6, 2010 11:13 p.m.

    As a person who is a transplant from another state I can tell you that most people find Mormonism oppressive, repressive, intrusive, overly strict, limiting, and weird. They think the rituals are strange and the doctrine unbelieveable.

    I find that Mormons are so saturated and obsessed with their religion that they can't relate well to mainstream society. The holier than thou attitude is a turn-off and the friendliness seems insincere and the beginning of an attempt to convert.

  • B
    Aug. 6, 2010 11:17 p.m.

    I don't remember reading in the scriptures that the church would be well liked and popular with the world.

    It's odd that for as 'backward' as this state is, so many people have chosen to move here to raise their families. (I'm talking to you, California.)

    There are unfriendly, self righteous people in every state in this country. If you don't feel welcome here in Utah, what have you done to change your situation?

    I went on a mission to Eastern Canada. (kind of a sleepy, and some would say, backward place.) I heard missionaries rip on the culture and the church out there. It DIDN'T endear those missionaries to the people of Eastern Canada. Why would you think ripping on Utah will make the natives open up and love you?

  • blu bergamo
    Aug. 6, 2010 11:57 p.m.

    It wasn't until I left the church that I realized just how disliked Mormons are. Now I can see with an open mind what an awful church it is. I've also found that everyone in all the other churches is so much nicer and welcoming than I ever experienced in my whole upbringing as a Mormon.

  • Clarissa
    Aug. 6, 2010 11:57 p.m.

    To Idaho Coug,

    I am LDS and would have had to sit on the other side of the reception. The smell of alchol makes me sick. Maybe because it reminds me of my father's constant drinking or because of the injections I must take daily. I have to hold my breath I feel nauseous. I wouldn't be apart on purpose. I would actually explain this to the other party if necessary, but I'm afraid they would be offended. Bummer.

  • MissouriJoe
    Aug. 7, 2010 12:05 a.m.

    Let the church's PR department worry about perception problems. Just live your life, be nice, and relax a little. It's not that hard.

  • KM
    Aug. 7, 2010 12:36 a.m.

    @blu
    Sorry you feel that way. I have found that the Church here in UT has many wonderful and outstanding members, who would give the shirt off their backs to anyone in need. They live the gospel the best they can. Its true that there are others who are judgmental and uncaring. But, they are in the minority. I hope you can look for the good in the lds church, as you do in other churches.

  • Demiurge
    Aug. 7, 2010 12:53 a.m.

    The Mormon Church created a whole lot of negativity when it injected itself into the center of Prop 8 in California. That negativity will take years to undo if it ever disappears. Stay out of California politics with your morals and money. Better yet, if you can't handle California, stay in Utah.

    Neo-Mormons like Glenn Beck ranting ignorance on TV become the face of the religion, like it or not, fair or not. Also, to claim that the Mormon Church doesn't have a huge influence on politics and the laws in Utah is just silly. It was amazing how much liquor laws in Utah moderated when the carrot of the Olympics was dangled, and not one wit before.

  • RAB
    Aug. 7, 2010 1:03 a.m.

    People have always and will always have a bad impression of the church. It has been the same since Christ was on the earth. It is always easier to believe the negative and there have always been enemies of the church that are willing to spread the negative. It takes ten times as many good examples to overcome one bad example. It takes ten times as many true stories to overcome one deceptive remark. Our only recourse is to just keep trying to live the gospel and not be afraid to share our actual beliefs.

  • ENDavis
    Aug. 7, 2010 1:09 a.m.

    Having lived both in and outside Utah, having been both in and outside of the Mormon church, here is why I think the Mormon church has an image problem.

    I have found that LDS in general (not everyone of course) has a persecution complex. Mormons have a long history of problems with their neighbors, so it's perfectly understandable that any criticism leveled at the church would now be viewed by Mormons as persecution, and church members become defensive. The problem is though, this behavior only further hurts the church's image with outsiders.

    If someone outside the church gives a neutral or positive response to a Mormon, the Mormon will generally react poitively toward them. However, as soon as anyone gives a critical or negative response to the Mormon the discussion almost immediately becomes divisive or vitriolic. Look at some of the comments here for example: "if (you) do (not) like the "LDS" influence in this state and it's politics, go live where thre are NOT a lot mormons." Mormons have created an us vs. them mentality. "You're either with us or your against us." You're either a Mormon or an anti-Mormon.

  • my slc
    Aug. 7, 2010 1:12 a.m.

    "Simple solution for you,

    if do like the "LDS" influence in this state and it;s politics,

    go live where thre are NOT a lot mormons."

    Same old song.

    I think it should be:

    Utah, love it or change it!

    I am here and going to stay. thank you.

  • Levi
    Aug. 7, 2010 1:18 a.m.

    When you have a bad experience with a restaurant (or any business actually) you almost always tell your friends all about it.

    Such is the case with the mormon church.

    My friends know everything there is to know about the mormon church. At first, they really didn't believe me - just too far fetched. But with a little further research, they now really understand.

    They do not have a positive image of the mormon church.

  • The Real Maverick
    Aug. 7, 2010 1:31 a.m.

    Excommunicate Glenn Beck. That will win a lot of support.

  • MoJules
    Aug. 7, 2010 1:58 a.m.

    I do indexing, and we created a group in Skype to do share batches. So we have a chat group and we have people from the UK, Holland, Australia, Pauaguay and Hawaii, plus the mainland. WE have LDS, other religions, an atheist. We have never met, but we have a very strong bond, we never discuss religion or politics. We talk about our family and about the indexing projects. There is such a warmth and friendship there and we care about each other. Sometimes the non Mormons outnumber the Mormons on a given day, but they are working on a project that is put out by the LDS church. I am sure that if we were all to post about an article that had religious or political threads here on DN we would be clashing. But that doesn't happen, because we find the human in each other. And it has to happen on both sides.

  • BYU Blue
    Aug. 7, 2010 4:18 a.m.

    There are 21 other states that either prohibit liquor or auto sales or both on Sundays, 43 states at the least have state mandated times when no alcohol can be sold or served. Yes Utah auto dealers have to be closed one day of the week, but did you know they have a choice of either Sunday or Saturday? Mormons are not the only faith that has a “Sabbath” day. That’s why the state legislator gave dealers the choice to pick and choose to accommodate to other religions. Car dealerships are closed on Sundays because of the owners not the legislator.
    You have 6 other days to buy your liquor or your car. If those 6 days during the week don’t suffice, it sounds like more of a personal rather than a legislative problem to me.
    The church is not at the ear of the governor and the legislator whispering to them what they want done. Those bodies are made up of elected officials, elected by the people of this state. The church isn’t drawing up bills and debating them on the floor.

  • carpediem
    Aug. 7, 2010 4:18 a.m.

    I served my mission right in the heart of the Bible belt, so I was actually able to see first hand a lot of the misconceptions people have. To be honest if I didn't grow up a member and just read or heard stuff about "Mormons" I would think they were weird too. There were times we would teach someone and afterwards they would get online and do research and they would never speak to us after that. I think we need as a church a much bigger presence on the internet! There isn't enough good stuff about us on the web, and the web is where a lot of people research religion.

  • BYU Blue
    Aug. 7, 2010 4:19 a.m.

    The church doesn’t influence state law the people who write and vote on the laws do. The people who hold office are under their own will and power and using their own judgment not the churches. I believe Edmund Burke said it best: “Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays instead of serving you if he sacrifices it to your opinion.”
    If you don’t agree with their judgment, run for office or campaign for whomever you support. That’s what they did. You have the same opportunity as they do, that’s what makes this state and country so great.
    Stay and live here we’d love to have ya, or leave whatever makes you happiest, it’s your right ya know.
    I heard Indiana is nice… oh wait they have the same liquor and auto sales laws that we do…

  • BYU Blue
    Aug. 7, 2010 4:23 a.m.

    The church doesn’t influence state law the people who write and vote on the laws do. The people who hold office are under their own will and power and using their own judgment not the churches. I believe Edmund Burke said it best: “Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays instead of serving you if he sacrifices it to your opinion.”
    If you don’t agree with their judgment, run for office or campaign for whomever you support. That’s what they did. You have the same opportunity as they do, that’s what makes this state and country so great.
    Stay and live here we’d love to have ya, or leave whatever makes you happiest, it’s your right ya know.
    I heard Indiana is nice… oh wait they have the same liquor and auto sales laws that we do…

  • BYU Blue
    Aug. 7, 2010 4:23 a.m.

    There are 21 other states that either prohibit liquor or auto sales or both on Sundays, 43 states at the least have state mandated times when no alcohol can be sold or served. Yes Utah auto dealers have to be closed one day of the week, but did you know they have a choice of either Sunday or Saturday? Mormons are not the only faith that has a “Sabbath” day. That’s why the state legislator gave dealers the choice to pick and choose to accommodate to other religions. Car dealerships are closed on Sundays because of the owners not the legislator.
    You have 6 other days to buy your liquor or your car. If those 6 days during the week don’t suffice, it sounds like more of a personal rather than a legislative problem to me.
    The church is not at the ear of the governor and the legislator whispering to them what they want done. Those bodies are made up of elected officials, elected by the people of this state. The church isn’t drawing up bills and debating them on the floor.

  • My2Cents
    Aug. 7, 2010 4:41 a.m.

    In my experience there are two kinds of Mormons and they are completely different. We have the ones in Utah born and raised close to home and they are the worst representatives of Mormonism. Deceit, lies, and greed runs their lives. The Utah Mormon is hypocritical, biased, deceptive, narrow minded, and have no thought processes. They have no self respect and the opposite of everything they preach.

    Then there is the rest of the world who represent Mormons and what it should mean. Having lived in both worlds there is a distinction in how they think and do things. There is much more respect for others and others choices of life. They scorn no one and respect and help their neighbors without knowing their religion or expecting a favor in return. They act more like brothers and sisters and will even argue their points like a family.

    That's a rough summation but an accurate interactive observation. The world sees Utah as the definition of Mormon and Utah doesn't represent it well, including in our news media and government with all its bias, deceit, and greed. Things Utah Mormons condemn other religions for.

  • srw
    Aug. 7, 2010 4:57 a.m.

    To: Vanka (5:12 pm)

    I can see how that quote from the Bible dictionary could be disturbing. But there is more to the story than what is told there...

    Members of the LDS church believe that Jesus Christ will return to the earth someday, and that during the time he is here (the "millennial era") he will reign as the king of the earth, both as a political and religious leader. It will not be a democratic government, it is true, but Christ will be a merciful and perfect monarch. Members of the church themselves are not expecting to have political power at that time. At the present time, members who are interested in politics are welcome to participate in running for office, etc., if they want to, but there is not a drive either for or against it.

    I am LDS, and I support a democratic government too. I can assure you that world domination is far from LDS members' thoughts and intentions! :)

  • that is neat
    Aug. 7, 2010 5:07 a.m.

    I am headed to Nashville in two weeks and I am looking into visiting the Jack Daniels Distillery while I'm there. Interesting it is located in a county that has been dry since prohibition. Due to Tennessee law, the White Rabbit Bottle Shop is closed sundays everyone, FYI.

  • brentpet
    Aug. 7, 2010 5:26 a.m.

    15 states in the United States have blue laws in place that prohibit car dealerships from opening or selling cars on Sunday or Saturday. I don't think the Mormon church has sufficient power to impose their will on all of those states.

  • Max
    Aug. 7, 2010 6:24 a.m.

    In an attempt to form a cartel to increase their market power, some Protestant groups have banded together by simply calling themselves Christians and assert that anyone outside their cartel is not a Christian (when what they really mean is that anyone outside the cartel is not a Protestant). Such word games can really be confusing to those who are neither LDS nor Protestant. I always explain that Protestant and Christian are not synonymous and while all Protestants are Christian, all Christians are not Protestants and that LDS are among those Christians who are not Protestant. The fact is that LDS are believers and followers of the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the center and foundation of our religion. Yes, we are most certainly Christian.

  • Mayfair
    Aug. 7, 2010 6:48 a.m.

    Living outside of Utah, I'd say except for those who's hearts have been softened and prepared--(a few by their contact/knowledge of members) but mostly by Divine Intervention--the vast majority of people either:

    A: already have decided in their own minds (from the disinformation or blatant lies of their own churches) or from ridiculous TV programs such as the Frontline/American Experience "The Mormons" just what, and how, and who 'Mormons' are, and couldn't care less what active faithful Mormons really are, or what they really believe.

    Or

    B: Their not knowing is exceeded only by their not caring, and NOT WANTING TO KNOW.

  • Mountanman
    Aug. 7, 2010 7:09 a.m.

    Jesus said, "If ye were of the world, the world would love you because the world loveth their own. Because ye are not of the world, the world hateth you". "The world hated me before it hated you."
    I for one, perfer to be accepted by God more than the world! Keep the faith brothers and sisters and worry not what the world can do. Jesus Christ overcame the world and if faithful so will you and I.

  • Rod
    Aug. 7, 2010 7:23 a.m.

    KM;
    I was a Mormon at one time, my wife still is (although not active). We have lived in Provo for 7 years and have not had one Mormon knock on our door to introduce themselves. We have had Jehovahs Witnesses stop and talk (we weren't converted to their belief either). I am sure that there are many outstanding and wonderful people in this state, as there are in all states, I have only met one person in my whole life that would give you "the shirt off his own back" and have nothing to replace it with. I have never met anyone else that would do that unless they had a much nicer shirt to replace it with. Holier than thou. None of you (of any religion) have more "truth" than anyone else. I don't hate Mormons. I don't hate anyone. My wife and I are considered good neighbors and hard workers. Even though we are an older couple no one has ever offered to help us do anything. I do love the mountains though. The outdoors is my religion. Thanks for listening.

  • mtgregson
    Aug. 7, 2010 7:42 a.m.

    Jesus Christ lives. He is the redeemer of this world. From my experiences of choices that I have made good and bad and studying truth, and light. I know that He leads this church and that it belongs to him. Except that or not. Those that do not, even some that are part of His church that 'claim' to believe with their mouths. It is his church. No man amoung us leads this church and no one in the church is perfect. In fact those of you that claim to believe that talk about Utah Mormons that don't treat you right... what are you doing about it? Are you seeking Christ yourselves? Are you reaching out and loving even those that may not deserve it? This is what Christ teaches. No man is perfect, and if we say we know what is right or what is wrong without really expiriencing it or studying it we are just giving lip service and following the influence of the world which is the 'popular' vote. Look and Live. We did not evolve from tadpoles. If you look and prayerfully of your own free will I promise you you will find out.

  • Kimball Woodruff
    Aug. 7, 2010 7:47 a.m.

    Hilarious! Look at the LDS responses to this thread. It's amazing that 39% have a favorable impression of these people. After reading these responses I certainly don't.

  • Rocketman
    Aug. 7, 2010 7:56 a.m.

    To understand how others view Mormons, think about how you view Scientologists and Jehovah Witnesses: mostly good, devoted people but with odd beliefs. When you think of "Brigham Young" University, you think of a great Mormon/Utah leader, but for the rest of the world Brigham Young is the most powerful icon for Mormon polygamy (whether we like it or not, BYU is an ongoing advertisement for the church's past connection to polygamy, undermining its attempt to disassociate from it). We might think of Mormons as 14 million strong, but for others, that's in the context of almost 7 billion people (.2% of the global population). If Tom Cruise ran for president, it may be hard to admit, but his religion would be a factor. Our image of ourselves in life, can be quite different from the embedded identity we have in the marketplace.

  • ObamaRepublican
    Aug. 7, 2010 7:59 a.m.

    Where ever you live or go in this world, people blame the majority or the minority for the various problems in the area.

    Take responsibility for your own actions, stop blaming others for your failures and get moving in life.

    So you have to buy your booze at a state store, and you can not buy a car on sunday. Life just can not go on with those crazy Mormon rules!

  • Wash DC Reader
    Aug. 7, 2010 8:05 a.m.

    It sounds like this guy has really put in a lot of thought into his research. I have to say that I agree with him in most all of his points. It is this type of innovation that needs to come more from the member level. I hope more is written on this topic by this and other researches.

    Keep up the good work.

  • 1Observer
    Aug. 7, 2010 8:08 a.m.

    People on both sides need to lighten up. And members of the LDS faith (I am one) need to teach by example and truly love others and quit worrying about what the world thinks about them. It isn't a popularity contest. It is a religion governed by agency or choice. Some people, likely a large majority of people, are not going to join or believe because they choose not to. That is the way it has always been. Christ wasn't crucified because he was popular, but because he unapologetically taught the truth and it scared people because it was different from their traditions and threatened their power base. Nonetheless, He loved unconditionally and stayed true to His message. That is what we all must do. Everyone chooses to take things far too personally.

  • qapilot
    Aug. 7, 2010 8:27 a.m.

    Too many people, including Mormons, critics of Mormons, and Lawrence himself, are missing what's happening and what "to do about it." When people are asked about the basis for their negative opinions about the LDS church, they largely come from these sources:

    1. Inaccurate rumor and gossip ("I knew this Mormon kid in high school. He never had Christmas or birthday parties, and he wasn't allowed to donate blood!") This is where most of my non-LDS friends got their negative opinions. People talk without checking facts. This will never change.

    2. News and entertainment media, i.e. critical reporting about "polygamist Mormons," the popular "Big Love" TV program, etc. This will never change, and will likely get worse.

    3. Active campaigns against the LDS hurch by other Christian groups. This is huge, as we saw during the campaign of Mitt Romney. It will never change.

    The solution? There is none. Opinions will be overly negative for a long, long time. So what? We just need to stop worrying about becoming popular or understood (a huge and vain waste of Mormons' energy), and just live our religion, and be great to our friends, neighbors, colleagues and relatives.

  • texlds
    Aug. 7, 2010 8:31 a.m.

    It is our insularity that is killing us. Far, far too often we're talking to the world in our own provincial lexicon and syntax.

  • Janet
    Aug. 7, 2010 8:38 a.m.

    How do we address "No man can serve two masters," "one Lord, one faith one baptism," "lead us not into temptation," and "Be ye in the world, but not a part of it" while trying to be well thought of by a world that is increasingly open to anything but "intolerance" or claims of absolute truth? What success I've had in this area has come from honesty. I am the same person at work, at church, and at home. A few at church think I'm too liberal, a few at work think I'm too conservative, and my husband likes me pretty well just as I am. Friends who are not LDS know they can ask me anything about our religion, and I will give them an honest answer without trying to convert them. As Shakespeare said, "To thine own self be true, and it must follow as the night the day: Thou canst not then be false to any man."

  • Dennis
    Aug. 7, 2010 8:45 a.m.

    The influence of Mormonism is felt in everyday life in Utah. Everywhere you go, everything you see, virtually everything you hear.
    No matter how you spin it, the "church" is "utah" and "utah" is the "church".
    Right, wrong or indifferent, it's a blessing to some, and a complete irritating distraction to others.
    Outside Utah, (I live on the East Coast now) the impression is commonly simililar to the turn of the last century. I've been asked numerous times if I come from a polygamous family. It's not ignorance, it's impression. In local eyes, news like Warren Jeffs indicates he was a "mormon".
    The Church can't fix it's image without facing a dramatic change in attitude, doctrine and belief. That's not going to happen.
    Love it or hate it, the Church is what it is and the members are way, way to sensitive about it.

  • easternobserver
    Aug. 7, 2010 8:45 a.m.

    Many good points in this article and in the comments. LDS lingo is overwhelming and confusing. The totality of doctrine and beliefs encompassed in the word "gospel" is an excellent example. To most of the rest of the world, the term refers very specifically the contents of four books of the NT -the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
    A couple of days before my baptism, one of the missionaries asked if I knew the gospel was true. I think my response was, "Which one?" Neither of us had a clue what the other was actually saying. I really don't like the terms "members" and "non-members" - very exclusive.
    A few members of my family are relatively recent converts from Catholicism to a large far-right Protestant congregation. They think Glenn Beck pretty much walks on water. The upside is that they know he's Mormon and respect my lifestyle more. Food storage was a big topic during a recent visit. The downside is that they think he represents the Church and that I agree w/ everything he says. Sometimes I wonder if there aren't days when Brethren wish he'd picked another church.

  • skeptic
    Aug. 7, 2010 8:45 a.m.

    As I see it: The LDS Church is supposed to be the church of Christ. But I don't feel the presence of Christ in the church, I feel the presence of Mormons and mormon social politics. There seems to be a big divide between what is said and done. The LDS church congregation seems to lack a sincere spiritural love of fellow man. It feels more like something akin to a fraternity and if one is an insider, then I guess there are advantages and benefits; but to outsiders, it is cold.

  • KM
    Aug. 7, 2010 8:58 a.m.

    @levi
    I really do know about the LDS church. Anybody who will ask with a sincere heart will know for themselves whether its true or not. So, you are right, people can really know. Thats the beauty of the LDS church. Don't believe me, find out for yourself that God lives and answers the searching prayer to him.
    Also, funny how obsessed people are about Glenn Beck being a member of the church. Deal with it! The members of the church come in all stripes. I'm sure you are just fine with Harry Reid being a member of the church.

  • Bebyebe
    Aug. 7, 2010 8:59 a.m.

    Yes the Utah government does control the politics in Utah. From todays SLT "Could Utah loosen its grip on booze biz":

    "Jon Butler, an attorney who has represented The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on liquor issues, attended several of the privatization board’s recent meetings."

    Why does the LDS church need an attorney to represent it on liquor issues!?

    You can talk 'til you're blue but no 'gentile' will ever believe that the church doesn't control Utah.

  • bribri
    Aug. 7, 2010 9:04 a.m.

    I love Utah , but Mormons are not nice , they are the best ,other people are nothing , I am french and they don't like us . why ? but Utah is so beautiful and non Mormon so kind .

  • Jeanie b.
    Aug. 7, 2010 9:12 a.m.

    I agree with Mountanman.

    If we claim any religion that teaches us to be kind - it's God who we need to be sure we're well-know and liked by.

  • mtgregson
    Aug. 7, 2010 9:16 a.m.

    This is the truth! Thanks you Mountanman, this is beautiful!!

    Mountanman | 7:09 a.m. Aug. 7, 2010
    Jesus said, "If ye were of the world, the world would love you because the world loveth their own. Because ye are not of the world, the world hateth you". "The world hated me before it hated you."
    I for one, perfer to be accepted by God more than the world! Keep the faith brothers and sisters and worry not what the world can do. Jesus Christ overcame the world and if faithful so will you and I.

  • Alberta Reader
    Aug. 7, 2010 9:28 a.m.

    Joggle
    I have read your post here as well as others articles from DN (LDS related) 20 yrs ago I was told I had a pessimist attitude. At first it irritated me then I realized I did and have spent 20 years trying to change and be happier. With your posts you come across as pessimistic are you? It seems like you see the glass half empty all of the time. Check in the mirror and see if some of those undesirable traits you see in the Mormons is not reflected in your own behavior as well. Just a thought for you. I now thank that person that helped me in my efforts to change how I see things

  • Jimmy James
    Aug. 7, 2010 9:33 a.m.

    After reading some more posts, I can't help but comment again regarding Utah Mormons:

    Utah Mormons are NOT intrinsically different from other Mormons, they just so happen to live in a place with a lot more Mormons. While this means that there are a lot more "bad" Mormons in Utah, it also means that there are a lot more "average" and "good" Mormons too. (Think of a bell curve distribution).

    From a Mormon perspective, living around lots of other Mormons offers some unique disadvantages and advantages. While I am grateful for my time spent out of Utah as it has given me some great perspective on a lot of things, it has also helped me come to the conclusion there's no other place I want to live long term other than Utah. (It doesn't hurt that I love outdoor recreation, and in my opinion, Salt Lake City is one of the best cities to live in for outdoor recreation.)

    So go ahead and weigh the advantages / disadvantages of living around lots of Mormons, and make a choice.

    But please, don't be fooled into thinking that that choice makes you better than someone else.

  • dave
    Aug. 7, 2010 9:37 a.m.

    Those attacking us that are showing why LDS's are not liked or trusted are proving our points.

    The article was about the LDS church and it's lack of favor. We pointed out a few things that stand out and add to the negative opinion. You can attempt to rationalize all you want. The fact is that what we pointed to is a reason some look on the church unfavorably.

    Comparing some of our stupid laws to other stupid laws is counterproductive. Stupid is as stupid does. Yes there are pockets of Baptists that have similar laws. It does not make it right.

    Until the Utah government stops treating non-mormons as second class citizens the unfavorable opinions will continue. The state shows a total contempt for those that do not believe as the majority. The majority being LDS.

  • morning
    Aug. 7, 2010 9:50 a.m.

    I picture a room full of Mormon bashers who wake up every morning and look for ways to spread negative information on these comments. I think if the study had asked the question: Do you know a Mormon and what do you think of them? The answer would most likely be positive. There is so much disinformation about the church that anyone not knowing differently would be negative about the church as a whole.

  • Hanksboy
    Aug. 7, 2010 9:57 a.m.

    Very insightful research. Reading some of the naive comments on this board makes one realize why those outside the faith have negative impressions of the LDS Church. The fact is most members of the LDS Church just assumes that everyone will embrace them and their faith simplry because "it's true." The church is one of the few in the world that's growing so people obviously see something there. It isn't the church or its teachings that make people skeptical, it's the church members.

    No, the church does not legislate in Utah but it heavily influences legislation; to say otherwise is disingenuous. Many, many Utah Mormons are insular, preferring the ward and other members to those who do not belong to the faith; to say otherwise is disingenuous.

    Church leaders doubtless are working to change percpetions but if they are to be successful many of the church's members must change THEIR perceptions, and their attitudes.

  • Not_Scared
    Aug. 7, 2010 9:58 a.m.

    I grew up LDS. I hadn't seen the LDS Church around here except for pairs of white shirt bike riding missionaries on journeys of parental appeasement. Then, Prop 8 came. We had Mormons going though our neighborhood dividing it. Mormons can marry in temples, my family where polygamous Mormons for three generations. We had Mormons telling me about traditional marriage.

    "Lying for the Lord refers to the practice of lying to protect the image of and belief in the Mormon religion, a practice which Mormonism itself fosters in various ways. From Joseph Smith's denial of having more than one wife, to polygamous Mormon missionaries telling European investigators that reports about polygamy in Utah were lies put out by "anti-Mormons" and disgruntled ex-members..."

    By your fruit.

  • dave
    Aug. 7, 2010 10:02 a.m.

    morning | 9:50 a.m. Aug. 7, 2010

    Your persecution complex does not help....

  • Albemar
    Aug. 7, 2010 10:03 a.m.

    For good or bad, the LDS may not be know for a lot of things, but they a surely known for their dislike of Gays & Lesbians.

    They have cemented this into the public's mind so strongly it will take decade for people to change their perception, if ever.

    For many, many young people, this intolerance over shadows any good the LDS Church and its members can do. For many people, how you treat your fellow human beings, is the most important measure of a group. In the eyes of many, the LDS Church has done a horrific job and has greatly damaged their reputation.

    The damage done to the LDS Church's image is the very reason LDS leaders came out in support of the two gay rights laws (employement & housing) that have now passed in seven Utah cities.

    This would have never happened without the LDS Church's support and the LDS Church would have never supported it without a reason that benefits them.

  • Bob Smith
    Aug. 7, 2010 10:15 a.m.

    As a non-Mormon, I have some thoughts on why others view you negatively, which I offer to try to be constructive, not critical.

    First, recognize that many people really don't like it when your missionaries knock on their doors or stop them on the street to sell them your religion. You think you are doing God's work, but they think you are invading their privacy. For every person you convert, you must cause a thousand others to think you are an annoying nuisance. I don't think it's a coincidence that Jews and Catholics, who don't proselytize, are viewed more favorably.

    Second, I don't have to tell you the impact of Prop 8, but I'll remind you that it's not just gays who were offended. Nearly half of California voters rejected it, and there just aren't that many gays, even in California. It wasn't your position that offended people, it was your rhetoric. The ads and the phone calls from my Mormon neighbors were truly hateful.

    Third, you must realize that some aspects of your religion will strike outsiders as kooky. I mean, really, Kolob?

  • Cleetorn
    Aug. 7, 2010 10:15 a.m.

    The Church is what it is. It is not subject to the whims and ideologies of men. Accept it or don’t. We all have our free agency, after all. We would hope that all men teach through exemplary behavior, but we know by sad experience that many teach through vilification. This is so in nearly all churches, organizations, groups and associations. There are “good” Mormons and there are “bad” Mormons, just as there is good and bad people and practices everywhere else. If someone wants to have a poor impression of the LDS people or faith, or anyone else for that matter, they are certainly welcome to do that. That’s one of the fun things about living in America. We are welcome to our own opinions no matter how ridiculous they may be. And that goes for both sides of the coin.

  • JoeBlow
    Aug. 7, 2010 10:16 a.m.

    I agree with parts of what MY2Cents say and not others.

    I agree that there are basically 2 types of Mormons. Utah Mormons and Out of Utah Mormons.

    I find the Out of Utah Mormons much easier to stomach.

    The LDS in Utah all think alike. They see it everyday. They dont need to wonder if its a sin to drink alcohol. They know it and everyone they know knows it. They are uncomfortable in a restaurant when others are drinking. They think everyone that drinks gets drunk.

    Their accountants, doctors and dentists and lawyers are all mormon. That is by choice.

    They have no Non Mormon friends that they hang out with that show them that a glass of wine or beer is no big deal for most people.

    They wont drink coffee and dont think you should either. They would never fathom the idea that they may serve coffee to their non mormon guests.

    Outside of Utah Mormons are much different. They have to fit in to a society in which they are not the majority.

    They are much more accepting. They have no problem if you have a beer with dinner. Out of space.

  • Cleetorn
    Aug. 7, 2010 10:16 a.m.

    While the Church as dictated by the Savior is perfect and designed to “perfect the saints” (and not only the Mormon ones), its people are not. Some are shining examples of true Christianity while some are not. Perhaps it serves as a back-handed compliment that better is expected of those claim membership. We can all improve thorough service to one another. We need to bury the hate. We need to be more tolerant of each other whether “of the faith” or not — regardless of what “faith” that might be. In the famous words of Rodney King, “Can’t we all just get along?"

  • Ridgely
    Aug. 7, 2010 10:27 a.m.

    Boy how quickly we forget...Gary Lawrence was listed as a States Grass Roots Area Director during the Prop 8 campaign, and his company was reimbursed hundreds of thousands of dollars for polling data by the LDS Church. Remember his assertion that Mormons would essentially be viewed in a positive light and greeted as liberators for their role in Prop 8?

    Strangely Prop 8 or the role of Lawrence Research is never mentioned in this article, which seems like a huge gaping void when talking about non-members perceptions of the LDS Church and its adherents.

  • Cleetorn
    Aug. 7, 2010 10:29 a.m.

    For Levi | 1:18 a.m. Aug. 7, 2010:

    I'm impressed! His/her "friends know everything there is to know about the mormon church." And here I thought there was no one but the "inventor" of the Church that had that kind of knowledge. I would love to meet some friends like this. The conversations would be endlessly enlightening.

  • Tommy2Shoes
    Aug. 7, 2010 10:32 a.m.

    We recently had some friends (neighbors for 7 years in California)come for a week. They are wonderful Catholics and we are wonderful Mormons. We get along fine. On Sunday they attended Mass in American Fork, went out for a family lunch and movie. My wife and I went to our Ward and taught our primary class.

    They live in Clovis now and while they like it there, they love Utah. This is their second visit and plan to come back every two years. Their children call us grandma and grandpa. They were impressed by how friendly the people are and the low crime. While they may never live here and will never leave the church they love, they respect us and we respect them. They loved the Bees game, the mountains, Park City and In-N-Out and Starbucks. We had a great time teaching them to play Ticket to Ride. We are friends forever.

  • Informed Voter
    Aug. 7, 2010 10:44 a.m.

    My daughter grew up in California, married, and several years later moved to Utah. She had plenty of friends in Calif, LDS and neighbors of other faiths, but after 3 years in SLC, she has hardly any and none as "good friends". Members associate with their expanded families, long-time ward friends, and she and her husband feel unaccepted by the ward. She has made a big effort but it is not reciprocated. Clicks are alive and well in her ward and neighborhood.

  • Gary
    Aug. 7, 2010 10:49 a.m.

    Interesting article. It is true that people of other faiths do not know enough about the church and that's our own fault. He is right that we need to do things differently to spread the word of truth. It's not about getting them all baptized. That's God's job. Ours is getting them to hear what the church truly represents from us personally. If we can do that much more without trying to convert, there will be more truthful information spread and more favorable reports and understanding. Even when Christ reigns on this earth, there will still be hundreds of religions that prefer to stay to their own beliefs. So like the article suggests, if I were all of you, I'd look into it a bit more and utilize the suggestions given. It just may surprise you that the results are positive. It won't surprise me though as I am going to use the 13 articles of faith more by asking people how much they know the church believes and then give them a card for them to read. There they will get the idea better than reading it from the internet. Great article!

  • Joggle
    Aug. 7, 2010 10:53 a.m.

    @Alberta Reader

    I don't see life in general pessimistically or negatively, but I do see religion (as a WHOLE) that way because of the negative impact it has had on people and the world both past and present. That's not to say it's all negative. There are positive aspects to religion. My post on this subject reflects how many people outside of Mormonism see it. Mormons may feel persecuted or unfairly portrayed, but that is mild compared to how many religious people treat atheists/agnostics/non-believers.....like something in them is flawed. Your post reflects that!

    Why is it that people think a person has to have religion to be happy? I am happy without it and I love living in Utah. I admit I have a negative attitude toward people in general....not just Mormons...due to working with the public and dealing with their rudeness for many years. Otherwise, I enjoy people who display sincere, positive, and caring attitudes and will react positively to those attitudes. I try to have a positive attitude toward people, but I admit I select my friends carefully and most do not live in Utah.

  • custer
    Aug. 7, 2010 10:56 a.m.

    An organization that is supposed to control what happens in the state of Utah, can't even control who becomes the mayor of Salt Lake City. I am not impressed.

  • Joggle
    Aug. 7, 2010 11:08 a.m.

    @Alberta Reader

    You are wrong! I am both optimistic and pessimistic. It depends on the subject. I love Utah for the most part, but I can't say there aren't some negative aspects to living here. There were negative aspects to where I used to live, too, but I am happy to be here and happy in my life here. I just posted what I know about how many people perceive Mormons. There are reasons for people's negative reactions to certain things including religion, but it doesn't mean THEY are to blame for that reaction. It would do you well to refrain from trying to dicipher or judge someone from a forum such as this.

  • StandAlone
    Aug. 7, 2010 11:10 a.m.

    Part of the problem is that people are too easily offended, not just outside the LDS church, but inside as well. This is why some members leave. People shouldn't have to walk on eggshells every time they talk about the Gospel to someone, for fear of offending them. I think about Nephi and how he favored speaking plainly about the Gospel, so it was not mis- understood. And yet this approach still angered many people.

    When I watch General Conference, I see the Brethren speaking clearly and plainly about what we represent and what we believe. Those who may have a guilty conscience or have been fed lies and misunderstandings about the LDS church, are more likely to be offended or confused when hearing the truth.

  • county mom
    Aug. 7, 2010 11:12 a.m.

    Well, I read about the Mormons and blue laws and about all kinds of other things that the people of Utah and the LDS faith need to change. I was born and raised here in Utah. I lived in other states since graduating from high school. Go to the southern states and try to get anything on sunday. It's call the "Bible Belt". Go to Washington and just fold your arms, and bow your head in a public place. Utah is not the only place with its funny laws and rude people, but you can buy a car on sunday here and get a beer if you wish. People are not perfect. I have lived in wards that were not freindly and I have lived in loving openly caring wards. This is not unique to just Utah. I have found it is mostly me. If I walk into church happy and freindly I draw people to me and make friends.

  • DesertRat
    Aug. 7, 2010 11:15 a.m.

    I wonder what a poll of Christians would have been for the first 100 years or so after Jesus died -- probably a lot of negative perceptions (false ones).

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan
    Aug. 7, 2010 11:31 a.m.

    Elimination of the Utah blue laws?
    You mean allowing stores to be open on Sunday? How would that help people think more clearly we are Christians?

    Anyway, somehow I recall that there are stores open in Utah on Sunday.

    No, what we need to do is share our message more often and more boldly. I will be the first to state I have not shared the gospel enough, declared the good news of the restoration enough, and helped others see the light enough.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan
    Aug. 7, 2010 11:33 a.m.

    Kit2350,
    All is not well in Zion. There are too many who are confused. There are too many who do not know.
    75% of the population not knowing that the Church excommunicates for polygamy is a sad statistic.
    I am not sure all we can do, but we need to do more than we do.

  • Hanksboy
    Aug. 7, 2010 11:34 a.m.

    @county mom - Well said. Thanks you. Your comments are profound in their simplicity.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan
    Aug. 7, 2010 11:40 a.m.

    Fuziz,
    It is clear from this article that Mormons do not shareaccurate information about their religion enough.
    If people do not know that we teach that Joseph Smith restored primative Biblical Christianity, if they do not know that we only allow a person to be married to one living spouse at a time, then we clearly do not share the message of our faith enough.
    Speaking of it less and speaking out less against the stupid and inane polygamy jokes are not the answer.

  • Demiurge
    Aug. 7, 2010 11:49 a.m.

    Nobody with a reasonable science education especially in geology, history, and anthropology is going to become a Mormon no matter how pretty it gets made. It simply will not happen unless the person abandons their education. Much of my opinion of the LDS church is based on doctrine, not on the Mormons themselves who can be very nice people - except in the case of Prop 8. I can't tell you how the groups of LDS on street corners soured any little bit of positive opinion remaining.

  • Demiurge
    Aug. 7, 2010 11:52 a.m.

    By the way, polygamy is not something I have an issue with. It will be practiced whether or not the participants are legally married, just as gays will. I believe consenting adults should be allowed to do what they will short of violence and coercion, and that includes signing marriage contracts.

  • Not_Scared
    Aug. 7, 2010 11:55 a.m.

    This sounds like a branding problem. This reads like a marketing study.

    Wasn't it hoped that by using 3.2 billion federal dollars and getting the 2002 Winter Games Mormonism would look more mainstream? God works in strange ways and the Salt Lake Winter Games became the topic of jokes about self righteous Mormons acting scandalously.

    By alignment with the Christian right Mormons thought they would gain acceptance. Conservatives loved Mormon money they just like being distanced from Mormonism.

    Then, it was Prop 8 and fighting for traditional marriage. In an age of "Big Love" when you put Mormons and marriage in the same sentence many giggles are heard.

    This is just my observation. I liked the days when Mormons won't bothered by appearing mainstream. My grandfather's generation wouldn't have sold out to get the Olympics. They knew they were a different culture. They knew their different culture filtered out certain elements from Utah.

    A different generation took over and learned the hard way that to bring people to Utah doesn't mean you can convert them.

    So, we see anger in Utah because Mormons are losing influence. You created your problems.

  • RAB
    Aug. 7, 2010 11:57 a.m.

    If we Mormons would just embrace homosexuality and all the other extramarital sexual behaviors, encourage alcohol consumption, abandon our beliefs in modern day revelations that say this is the actual church of Jesus Christ, deny that we believe our doctrine is true, completely ignore our leaders, stop temple work, give away all tithing money, and grossly overemphasize the importance of abandoned practices of the past — everybody would love us. Come on you guys. We all know that God just wants us to be liked.

  • loisfaye1213
    Aug. 7, 2010 12:01 p.m.

    I was impressed with this article and can relate to the idea of finding room in one's life to learn and appreciate people of other faiths, and by being open to learn what we can from others, they are more likely to want to learn why you are who you are. I have always felt like I needed to be an ambassador for the church, so I have many friends of other faiths, and I know that they respect me even if they do not agree with me. I grew up in the evangelical community and joined the LDS church when I was 18 yrs. old and I have never looked back. I have a very good Catholic friend who was moving and needed help. I called the Catholic church to see if they could help her, and no one responded, theh I asked my LDS church and they came and helped her move and paid for the rental truck. Which one do you think was a true christian? I am so sad to see so much "hate" out there and really feel sorry for people who are constantly spewing hate as they respond to a story.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan
    Aug. 7, 2010 12:02 p.m.

    Samwise,
    Your comments are very good. I have known enough people from enough places to realize any attempt to pigeon-hole people is unwise.

    Again blue laws and Prop 8 definantly do not lead to fellings that we are not Christians. Whatever else people think of Glen Beck, he is clery a Christian, with his lead book being "The Christmas Sweter".

    While some of the gripes may indicate why people dislike the Church, it does not at all explain the ignorance of the Church's basic teachings.

  • JoeBlow
    Aug. 7, 2010 12:04 p.m.

    to John Pack of Mich.

    You write - "No, what we need to do is share our message more often and more boldly"

    Right.. Like that will help to endear mormons to their non-lds neighbors.

    Just be neighborly and leave religion out of it.

    Thats what people want from you.

  • R.Burgundy
    Aug. 7, 2010 12:08 p.m.

    I think it so funny that people think the LDS Church was the only Church in on the prop 8 battle. I am sure if many of our friends outside of the LDS faith looked in to it they would find many of their Churches were just as invoved if not more!! Yes, some people don't like the LDS Church's stand on Prop 8 and therefore look unfavorable at Mormons, However alot MORE people of other Faiths are happy with what the LDS Church did and now have good things to say about the Church!! I do not think prop 8 hurt the LDS Church one bit! in fact, it actually helped it's perception not only here in California but Nationwide! Stay Classy!

  • Joggle
    Aug. 7, 2010 12:18 p.m.

    Part of the problem as I see it is the misconception by people who wish to spread the word. Most people have heard or learned about "the word" in one form or another. Many religions share similiar aspects of "the word". It may not be exactly the LDS "word", but the general message is very similiar. Many don't want to be approached and don't want to hear your version of the message boldly shared. They want to choose to hear it rather than having to be forced to politely listen or to shut you out. Most religions don't go out door-to-door trying to sell "the word". For the most part it is a turn-off....with exceptions of course!

  • BYU Blue
    Aug. 7, 2010 12:22 p.m.

    There are 21 other states that either prohibit liquor or auto sales or both on Sundays, 43 states at the least have state mandated time periods when no alcohol can be sold or served. Yes Utah auto dealers have to be closed one day of the week, but did you know they have a choice of either Sunday or Saturday? Mormons are not the only faith that has a “Sabbath” day. That’s why the state legislator gave dealers the choice to pick and choose to accommodate to other religions. Car dealerships are closed on Sundays because of the owners not the legislator.
    You have 6 other days to buy your liquor or your car. If those 6 days during the week don’t suffice, it sounds like more of a personal rather than a legislative problem to me.
    The church is not at the ear of the governor and the legislator whispering to them what they can and can’t do. Those bodies are made up of elected officials, elected by the people of this state. The church isn’t drawing up bills and debating them on the floor.

  • Carson
    Aug. 7, 2010 12:23 p.m.

    The Internet has hurt Mormonism people can now read your history and see how it was all put together. Mormons claim it's Anti but 99% of the teaching and doctrines came out of the mouths of your early leaders.

  • Kim
    Aug. 7, 2010 12:23 p.m.

    Outside of Utah I have encountered the most discrimination/bigotry against Mormons in the states west of Colorado. These states have have relatively large LDS populations. East of Colorado the church exists in relative obscurity. I am not sure even the most robust PR campaign by the church is going to change the image of the church that much. I think the larger issue is how do we individually respond to this view of the church? I agree that getting defensive does not help. We just need to ignore the hateful comments and love everyone. Have friendships outside the church that are every bit as close as friendships in the church. Be a part of the larger community where ever you live. That will do more than anything to dispel all of the misconceptions.

  • my slc
    Aug. 7, 2010 12:25 p.m.

    To paraphrase Sally Field:

    "I haven't had an orthodox career, and I've wanted more than anything to have your respect. The first time I didn't feel it, but this time I feel it, and I can't deny the fact that you don't like me, right now, you really don't like me!" (1985)

    Why does the church even care if folks like them?

    You are what you are.

  • ECE
    Aug. 7, 2010 12:34 p.m.

    Good article. If members learn to relate a little more to non members its going to make thing a lot more comfortable for both sides.

  • Hellooo
    Aug. 7, 2010 12:48 p.m.

    I am not LDS, but if you were to ask 1000 people randomly chosen about anything in America, they would have about the same ability to respond knowledgeably. Ask them who is the Vice-President, where is Greece, who is head of the Catholic Church, do Jewish people believe in Christ, anything. You would get similar polling results. The negativity would be true with regard to any "Christian" religion. The last institution in America to which prejudice and bias is justified, constantly proclaimed and accepted. It may be to some small extent "Mormons" fault, but to a large extent, it just shows the general lack of knowledge or interest by Americans in anything but themselves.

  • Tlingit
    Aug. 7, 2010 12:52 p.m.

    "I say that any church that can have Glenn Beck and Harry Reid as active members is a big-tent religion."

    [Chuckle] Good point.


    @dave | 3:57 p.m. Aug. 6, 2010

    I'm sorry, but that is one of the most ludicrous things I have ever read.

    The WHOLE POINT of a federated democracy is to create a country where states can set their own laws, laws which reflect the beliefs of their citizens (within the bounds of the Constitution).

    I don't see Californians going out of their way to create laws to appeal to Utahans, do you?

    And I wouldn't expect them too.

    In fact, if I did, I would literally be anti-America.

    There is nothing more American than allowing states like Utah and Alaska to be blue, and states like California and Washington to be red.

    Consequently, it's more than a little ironic that you criticize the Church for its "stranglehold," while insisting that Utah "normalizes" its laws to conform to "visitors" beliefs.

    That's rhetoric, Dave.

    To be clear: you want to force Utahans to believe only as you do, and not allow them their own beliefs.

    Tch tch.

  • idablu
    Aug. 7, 2010 12:53 p.m.

    I agree with the basic tenet that we should do more to inform the public to correct the many misconceptions about Mormons.
    But call it a persecution complex if you want but the fact remains that there is a huge public and media bias against Mormons. Just look at the scrutiny Romney took about religion. No one else was asked about their religion.
    Show me any other religion that has more misinformation and hatred spewed against it in the internet and other media sources with the possible exception of Islam. At least it is politically incorrect to bash Islam but OK to bash the LDS.

    There are a lot of good LDS people and some not so good. But many of the posters here prefer to stereotype, generalize, or just plain hate, and those people are unlikely to be persuaded otherwise. One definition of bigotry is judging an entire group of people based on misbehavior or bad experience of a few.

    I like the advice of just striving to live your religion, be an example without judging and being the best neighbor you can be. Swaying attitudes is a tough battle, especially in Utah.

  • Joggle
    Aug. 7, 2010 12:58 p.m.

    Keep in mind...don't blame the messenger because the message is unpleasant or something you disagree with....or something unbelievable. The message may be more to blame than anything rather than the person delivering it. The messengers may have good intentions, but unfortunately for the messenger the message may not be welcome or needed.

  • dave
    Aug. 7, 2010 1:05 p.m.

    Tlingit | 12:52 p.m. Aug. 7, 2010

    I did not judge the validity of these laws (although I believe they are designed to punish the non-mormons as they serve no practical purpose). I am very aware that the constitution allows states to be foolish if they choose.

    The subject of the article seems to be lost on you and others'. Read the article. Understand the article. reread what I wrote. I wrote as to why people do not like mormons... That's all. It is the truth.

  • John-Dude
    Aug. 7, 2010 1:05 p.m.

    Hi. The article was interesting. My first thought was: if members could just forget about "the Church" entirely and focus exclusively on living with charity, faith, and hope, choosing not to judge others because we're so blessed, as others seem to have so much less in comparison (with our fulness of the Gospel, authority, blessings, etc, etc), if members could forget they ever heard the words "one true" ANYTHING and just focus on living by example the way Jesus did, then I think a lot of the misconceptions would die a natural death on their own. Sometimes, I think here in Utah, we're very focused on how our blessings separate us from those around us, but that separation in our minds ends up affecting the way we think about the people around us. Utah culture seems full of these distinctions (Spanish Wards, Tongan Wards, Singles Wards, Priests, High Priests, non-members, etc), and it leads people here to separate THEMSELVES proudly by our perceived blessings, even before WE are separated by those who don't understand our culture. Maybe we could start by removing the separations in our own minds/culture first, so we look "true" from outside.

  • Ridgely
    Aug. 7, 2010 1:09 p.m.

    This is an interesting article but I keep wondering where in the Salt Lake Valley do we have neutral spaces and events that promote mingling of Mormons and Non-Mormons so we get past these loaded perceptions?

    So many events and milestones in our "community" are exclusive to one group or the other. Even the FAIR Conference is just counter-programming to the Sunstone Symposium, just like the LDS Film Festival is counter-programming to Sundance, or the Pride Parade is counter-programming to the Mormon Pioneer Day Parade. Non-Mormons go to Red Butte Gardens and Mormons go to Thanksgiving Point. We either read the S.L. Tribune or the Deseret News. Sometimes it seems like we live in parallel universes that never touch.

    Where's the middle ground where everyone can let their defenses down?

    Excuse the strange example but I really miss the elaborate Christmas Windows at ZCMI, where everyone could enjoy them without judgment, exclusion or fear of proselytizing.

  • mamiejane
    Aug. 7, 2010 1:13 p.m.

    It's hard to have positive feelings about a Church that is forcing non-member businesses to close on Sunday at the new city creek center. Business owners who follow the dictates of Islam or Judaism will be forced to organize their businesses around the LDS sabbath, rather than their own day of rest. This kind of forcing the rest of us to set aside our deeply held beliefs if we want to do business in Utah doesn't breed respect.

  • Idaho Coug
    Aug. 7, 2010 1:19 p.m.

    So many members of the Church believe that almost anything about LDS history and doctrine that is negative or embarrassing must be "missinformation", "misconceptions", "outright lies", etc.

    Folks, we are trying so hard to package the LDS religion into a nice neat little package that can be accepted by everyone. Numbers, PR and apologetics seem to have been the driving force of the LDS Church for many year now.

    We ARE very different. Our history and doctrine DOES have some things that are hard to accept or view in a positive light for many people.

    Certainly there is some missinformation. But even information from the most critical websites do contain a great deal of truth.

    And I think that is okay. I personally do not accept all that has been done or taught since Joseph Smith. But I know we have been and are lead by BOTH revelation and imperfect human beings. So I am not just okay with LDS history and doctrine but I love it.

    The problem is so many members want to pretend anything that does not fit into a pretty little perfect message or pass-along card is a lie or anti.

    Continued

  • Linus
    Aug. 7, 2010 1:20 p.m.

    Friends,
    Have you not heard, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." For some reason, no matter where I am, I am not surprised to find that local customs and practices reflect the predominant preferences of the people who live there. Utah will have free-flowing liquor laws as soon as the majority wants them. Utah will have open car showrooms and sales lots as soon as the majority wants them. Utah will have gambling and lotteries as soon as a majority want them.
    Most who move to Utah, including me, moved here willingly. Some, including me, even like the culture they find here. I like it here. If I didn't, I would look around for some other place to live. I would say to our offended, critical and bitter friends, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

  • KM
    Aug. 7, 2010 1:42 p.m.

    @joe blow
    It sounds like you are the one who is hung up on the word of wisdom (abstaining from alcohol and tobacco) most LDS don't give a hoot about whether somebody is drinking or smoking. True religion is between you and your God. Its individual. So go ahead and smoke all you want, It doesn't bother me in the least. Just don't blow it in my face. LDS are alot less judgmental than you might think. I think they are mostly trying to live their religion the best they can. You know ... live and let live. Have a great day! And I mean that!

  • The Atheist
    Aug. 7, 2010 1:47 p.m.

    I read so many "faithful" LDS acknowledging they need to "get their message out" - WRONG! That is part of the problem! You treat non-Mormons like they are targets for your "message"! That is not treating them like they are real human beings or sincere friends. I no more want you to be my friend if you are targeting me as a "potential convert" than I want to make friends with a pushy car salesman!

    I repeat, NO, you do NOT need to get your message out! We do NOT need to better understand Mormons and your message! Keep religion out of your relationships. That is the only way to be true friends.

  • Joggle
    Aug. 7, 2010 2:08 p.m.

    @idablu

    Show me any other religion that has more misinformation and hatred spewed against it

    It's not a religion....but atheists/non-believers are more like to be treated worse and have more misinformation. They just don't go around like Mormons trying to spread the word as much as Mormons do. It grows on its own mostly.

  • onewhotries
    Aug. 7, 2010 2:14 p.m.

    I am thankful for my testimony of Jesus Christ and His Gospel!
    When I joined the LDS church, as a person of color, some white members left the ward in protest saying it was a "white church". Now I hear Blacks asking, why do you go to that "white church". I believe after the Lord saw the church established [by those that had the means] he opened priveledges to All His children of which there are more of color than not.
    Now we have missionaries going to all parts of the world to teach, add to what others already have. Utah Mormons need to see that it is to be shared by one and all, that God is no respecter of persons. That because you might be of pioneer heritage you do not have a monopoly on God or His teachings!

    Unlike many of you, I don't feel that I am better or worse than anyone else;I just believe that I am His child ,too ,so I strive to show love to all; mormons,jews, muslims,protestants,black,white, asian,african,american.european,man,woman,child everyone!
    We must live truth; by example is how we teach it!

  • onewhotries
    Aug. 7, 2010 2:43 p.m.

    To me the best way to get ones' point across, be it religion or otherwise, is to be sincere in your relationship with other people. We can't say we have the fullness of the teachings of Jesus Christ if we shun certain people and judge them, whether by color,race, habits, or beliefs. We can't say 'what you have is good now let us give you more', if we act or behave in such a way that non-mormons will feel we think we're better then they are.
    I think it would help to listen to what Mr. Lawrence said and consider it without emotion; just the facts.

    Truly living our religion is the best example.

    Loving others,being kind, patient, long suffering,teaching and preparing our children to do the same, will do more good than complaining or being offended. Then, just maybe, our neighbors, coworkers,and all others will want to know what it is, that we have, that helps us to be this way; especially as the world is today.

    We are charged to spread the restored gospel and we can....with His love.

  • Tlingit
    Aug. 7, 2010 2:48 p.m.

    @dave | 1:05 p.m. Aug. 7, 2010

    While I'm sure you found it emotionally satisfying claim to have superior understanding (while belittling and mocking the understanding and lifestyle of others) ...

    In reality, you seem much less self-aware than the Mormons you love to loathe.

    Contrary to your double speak, when you label Utah's laws as "foolish" and serving "no practical purpose," you are most definitely judging "the validity of these laws."

    And you were most definitely NOT just writing "as to why people do not like mormons."

    You were telling Mormons to change their laws to be more like other states.

    The "truth" is there for us all to read and re-read.

    BTW, you aren't the only person with an outsiders' perspective on Mormons.

    I am a convert to the Mormon church, as is my wife.

    We lived all our lives in England and Alaska and are somewhat recent residents of Utah.

    Anyway, I enjoyed the insights from this article, many of them confirming what I've long believed.

    But Utah doesn't have to change its laws and beliefs to prove it is world-friendly.

    That's YOUR agenda.

  • Joggle
    Aug. 7, 2010 3:03 p.m.

    Regarding onewhotries post:

    You say: Loving others, being kind, patient, long suffering,teaching and preparing our children to do the same, will do more good than complaining or being offended. Then, just maybe, our neighbors, coworkers,and all others will want to know what it is, that we have, that helps us to be this way;

    Don't you see how insulting that is to non-Mormons? We don't need your religion to be that very same way, too. Your post insinuates non-Mormons AREN'T that way or that people NEED your religion to be that way.

  • LOL
    Aug. 7, 2010 3:07 p.m.

    Mormonism is widely regarded as a cult.
    Some view it as a folk religion.
    Others see it as not a religion at all, but as a political movement with obvious business overtones.
    Frankly I think Glenn Beck is doing a tremendous disservice to the Mormon people with his bizarre government-hating tirades, day after day after day ...
    This is becoming very tiresome to mainstream America and might explain why our youth (the future) are registering as Democrats in droves.

  • The Atheist
    Aug. 7, 2010 3:12 p.m.

    to onewhotries,

    You wrote:

    "We can't say 'what you have is good now let us give you more', if we act or behave in such a way that non-mormons will feel we think we're better then they are..."

    I challenge you to identify what I have that you consider "good" and then build upon it with anything that you think I LACK - and do so without implying that what you have, and therefore YOU are "better" than me and what I have...

    I will be eagerly waiting to read your response...

  • Tlingit
    Aug. 7, 2010 3:22 p.m.

    @ The Athiest

    Thank you for your honest (and non-mean spirited) comments. Believe it or not, as a very active Mormon, I couldn't agree more.

    I am wondering what you think of what "John-Dude" wrote.

    @John-Dude

    I REALLY appreciated your comments as well. In fact, I think you and "The Atheist" made the most intelligent, well-thought-out comments yet.

    As a convert to the Church, I've always CRINGED at the recruitment mentality, as well as the us-them mentality (even between wards in Church sports).

    None of it is healthy really.

    I and my loved ones converted to the Church as a direct result of natural and real friendship, coupled with a testimony of the Spirit.

    Not because we were netted by the recruitment program of the month.

  • Alberta Reader
    Aug. 7, 2010 3:22 p.m.

    Joggle
    Glad to see you read my post and responded. Your response though just furthers my impression of your attitude in general. Sometimes the truth hurts to hear. You leave me no choice but to judge you in the way you post.
    I do know all people have good qualities and you would be no exception. However you come across as not liking, or feel you don't need religion in general, and more specifically do not like the LDS faith.
    If you don't want me to consider you pessimistic then try some positive comments. You have been on at least 3 LDS related articles this week and every post is Negative. This is the only side of you are showing that is how I draw my conclusions.
    Like I did I know you will think about what I said.
    If all else fails stay away from DN LDS Newline and you won't be so irritated

  • dave
    Aug. 7, 2010 3:24 p.m.

    Tlingit | 2:48 p.m. Aug. 7, 2010

    Take my advice or leave it. It's worth what you paid.

    Nobody wants anyone to change their beliefs. If the laws are a reflection of the belief.... Well.. That's another issue.

    Again, I am telling you why I dislike mormonism. It is my opinion. As long as I am legally discriminated against I will continue to discriminate against my oppressor. My way is to avoid mormon owned businesses, buy my wine, etc from out of state and spread the word about Utah's evil empire... Utah is my home, I own a business and love it due to the geography... nothing else.

  • Vanka
    Aug. 7, 2010 3:35 p.m.

    Joggle has said it well.

    I am reminded of a scene from an X-Men movie where a human doctor says they "just want to help the mutants". The "mutant" responds: "Do we look like we need your help?"

    It is offensive, patronizing, arrogant, and blind to presume you have some sort of "truth" that everyone else is lacking, and feel it your duty to "enlighten" those of us so "unworthy" to be unable to "see" your "truth".

    The very language you use is filled to the brim with presumptuous, offensive terms and ideas, and betrays your [erroneous] assumptions of moral superiority.

    Until you honestly and sincerely strip away such deeply-seated arrogance and pretense, you will continue to be looked upon with disdain.

  • Protectourfreedoms
    Aug. 7, 2010 3:36 p.m.

    How can you "increase favor" when there is censorship of ideas and facts the Mormon Church find uncomfortable. The Catholic Church tried this with the abuse of children. It blew back in their faces. Every time Mormons censor someone because they share facts which they know are true and verifiable it just makes them all the more determined to expose the truth.

    You would say you believe in democratic freedoms. What about freedom of the press? What about freedom of religion? These freedoms can only exist when views, which individuals or churches do not agree with, are able to be expressed freely and openly. When this is not the case there exists a dangerous theocratic dictatorship. If Mormons want to work toward increasing favor they must protect democratic freedoms. One of the reasons why Mormons are viewed with disfavor and distrust is because many people know they are being anything but candid about their founder, doctrines and practices.

  • PJ
    Aug. 7, 2010 3:45 p.m.

    Its all about "persecution" and "perception"...Please stop! My beef is and always will be the history, things like Mountain Meadows and the lack of accountability and acknowledgment by leaders and members. Also polygamy, a very questionably lifestyle, yet the church is at the forefront of banning same-sex marriages. My point is, if you are Mormon then you support everything your church does, including whats in the past. Nobody is perfect, including you.

  • notever
    Aug. 7, 2010 4:09 p.m.

    I grew up around Mormons and their church. I can sit in a group of strangers and in a few minutes, tell who is Mormon. If you know them, they give themselves away quite quickly. Sooner or later they just have to mention "our church" even if they are the only Mormon in the group. If they are Mormon from Utah or Idaho, they also have many cultural oddities that they do or say. There is even a way of talking that you only find with Utah and Idaho Mormons. It is almost a regional accent. That is how all consuming the church is.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan
    Aug. 7, 2010 4:10 p.m.

    The nicest people I ever met at Church were in a ward in Provo. True there were a set of husband and wife Hispanics originally from Arkansas and Texas, but they had lived in Provo for a few years and the wife called me "mi hijo" (my son, a term of endearment) from the moment I met them.

    To Demiurge,
    I know lots of Mormons who were born and raised in California. Some are converts to the Church, many life-long members. Contrary to your view the Mormons are not some outside invaders, but real citizens of California who have probably lived in California longer, on average, than the population as a whole.

    I think B's question "If you feel unwelcome in Utah, what have you done to change that" is a good one. I would say to members of the Church that they need to read Elder Ballard's talks on being a Christian neighbor and start living by his teachings.

    However, I think we all need to realize things can be improved and be willing to try.

  • atl134
    Aug. 7, 2010 4:38 p.m.

    One of the big problems is that our most visible aspect might be missionaries who are often viewed as similar to door-to-door salesmen (and those are often viewed as annoying and manipulative). Heck, even this article reads like a "do and do not" guide on converting people.

  • atl134
    Aug. 7, 2010 4:51 p.m.

    " Anybody who will ask with a sincere heart will know for themselves whether its true or not. So, you are right, people can really know. Thats the beauty of the LDS church. Don't believe me, find out for yourself that God lives and answers the searching prayer to him.
    "

    This... this whole "if you're sincere you would end up believing the way I do" thing. Very annoying and arrogant, and I'm LDS myself.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan
    Aug. 7, 2010 4:53 p.m.

    qupilot,
    Things can change. There is atually progress being made in getting people to recognize that since The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is referred to as being "commonly known as the Mormon Church" to be a Mormon a person must be a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

  • Owl
    Aug. 7, 2010 4:58 p.m.

    Evangelicals will never give the LDS Church an even assessment nor will the far left.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan
    Aug. 7, 2010 5:05 p.m.

    Bob Smith,
    Catholics don't proselytize? You have an awful lot to learn. Catholics are among the most active proselytizers in the world.

    I do not hate Jehovah's Witnesses. People knowking on your door is not "an invasion of privacy".

    First off, even if someone knocks on your door, nothing forces you to open it. second, if you do open it, you can always just shut it. I had enough doors slammed in my face as a missionary to know that that is a perfectly possible option.

    Actually, the Church does all sorts of outreach efforts. The Church sponsors all sorts of service projects in various communities. Today was the culmination of a project in my stake where people donated back packs and school supplies and then they were distributed to needy children in Detroit.

    Then there are the family history centers. The majority of the patrons at the family history center I volunteer at, in fact the vast majority, are from other faiths. I want to say a majority are Catholic, but I really do not know.

    Obviously the Church and individual members could do a lot more, but we are doing something.

  • atl134
    Aug. 7, 2010 5:07 p.m.

    "I think it so funny that people think the LDS Church was the only Church in on the prop 8 battle. I am sure if many of our friends outside of the LDS faith looked in to it they would find many of their Churches were just as invoved if not more!!"

    LDS represented 50% of the money and 75% of the volunteer hours for the pro-8 side despite being 2% of californians... my LDS church being singled out in particular is justifiable.

  • atl134
    Aug. 7, 2010 5:11 p.m.

    "I do not think prop 8 hurt the LDS Church one bit! in fact, it actually helped it's perception not only here in California but Nationwide! "

    You must not have liberal friends because I repeatedly had friends tell me that they hated the church pretty much solely because of this (they were previously neutral, thinking of us as a quirky christian group). I had zero cases of people expressing the reverse.

  • atl134
    Aug. 7, 2010 5:14 p.m.

    "Just look at the scrutiny Romney took about religion. No one else was asked about their religion.
    "

    Obama? I'm pretty sure fox news spent two straight weeks with nothing but bashing Obama's church. Also almost 10% of the electorate thought he was muslim in that one poll...

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan
    Aug. 7, 2010 5:15 p.m.

    Not_Scared,
    Are you serious about your blabbing about the Olympics?
    Most of the people connected with the alleged scandals were not Latter-day Saints. The mayor of Salt Lake City during the whole process was never a Latter-day Saint.

    Actually people going to Utah and joining the Church is more common than most on here will admit.

    The percentage of Latter-day Saints in Utah is quite probably larger today than it was in 1950, for sure than it was in 1975.

    However Utah has less than 1% of the US population. So if we want to change perceptions in the US as a whole, we have to think beyond Utah.

    About 2/3rds of LDS in the US live outside of Utah. There are people in my ward who have never even visited Utah, and I am in a Young-single adult ward where every member is at least 21.

  • the truth
    Aug. 7, 2010 5:20 p.m.

    RE: Bebyebe | 8:42 p.m. Aug. 6, 2010

    Typical ANTI- or NON- mormon response,

    If the Mormons do not want change for you, will not capitulate to ALL your demands, they are the bad guys.

    UTah is strongly mormon area,

    you knew that coming here,

    you should not expect them to change for you or bend over backwards just to please you.


  • atl134
    Aug. 7, 2010 5:20 p.m.

    "Show me any other religion that has more misinformation and hatred spewed against it"

    Based on christian facebook groups.... catholics get more than we do (probably because they're bigger than us, reverse the sizes and that'd be us) mostly directed at them from evangelicals. Evangelicals take some fire, and everyone just plain dumps on atheists/agnostics who tend to fire a lot of it back.

    Polling shows that people are more willing to vote for a Mormon than they are for an atheist (the gallup poll showed atheists were the group at the bottom, even lower than homosexuals).

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan
    Aug. 7, 2010 5:20 p.m.

    Joggle,
    If the vast majority of the population can not identify that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints claims to be the ancient Christian Church restored than it is clearly a problem of not getting the basic message out.

    This may be seperate from why there is a negative perception of the Church. However, if we feel, as I do, that a key to having a good impression of the Church is having a correct impression of the Church, than we need to find ways to share the message of the gospel more.

    Many may have heard the message of the Church, but clearly the vast majority of the population does not understand it. On the other hand, the proportion of the US population that does is much greater than the number of Latter-day Saints, so we are making some progress.

  • Dennis
    Aug. 7, 2010 5:23 p.m.

    re:Dave
    Get a life and stop looking at the Church and Utah with rose colored glasses.
    This is an article about the image the Church portrays around the country. The Church is looked at as ridiculous everywhere but Utah and Idaho.
    Ask yourself why!

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan
    Aug. 7, 2010 5:25 p.m.

    67% of the US population does not even realize that Mormons believe the Bible. For years the Church was distributing free Bibles. I have known people who would bad-mouth the Church but had a full footnotes and Bible Dictionary copy of the Bible because that is what they could come by the most cheaply (specifically because it was left behind by the last owner of their house).

    Only 12% of the US population can identify the central claim of the Church to be the restored Church of Jesus Christ. This is not the type of figure that indicates most people have heard the message of the restoration. This is the type of figure that indicates the vast majority of the US population has not heard the message of the restoration in a meaningful way.

  • atl134
    Aug. 7, 2010 5:35 p.m.

    @john

    "The percentage of Latter-day Saints in Utah is quite probably larger today than it was in 1950, for sure than it was in 1975. "

    It's not, this is the first year (2009 I mean) that the LDS percentage increased in several decades (and it was like .008% or something rediculously small like that where I joked that my moving here for college was half of that). The thinking with this year was that the recession kept people from moving and well... LDS members outbreed non-mormons.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan
    Aug. 7, 2010 5:36 p.m.

    Ridgely,
    The Mormon/ everyone else divide of Utah is false. Most Catholics could not stomach the "pride parade" and similar things. I remember entering Temple Square once passing a street preacher raging about how evil President Hinckley was for allowing the Pride Parade to occur.

    Jon Huntsman, Sr., was one of the members of the committee that helped with the raising of money to renovate the Cathedral of the Madeline. Thomas S. Monson has spoken at events there multiple times. A Catholic Cardinal has spoken at BYU.

    I knew of a ward in downtown Salt Lake City that spent months planning the community picnic in the city park.

    The Pioneer Heritage Park has sought to reach out by reconizing Catholic and other contributions to early Utah. Evangelical meetings have been held in the Tabernacle.

    I am sure that there is more that could be done, but assuming that it is only Mormons who dislike Gay Pride Festivals is a false starting premise.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan
    Aug. 7, 2010 5:48 p.m.

    onewhotries,
    Depending on how you define "those of color" the claim there are more with it than not may be accurate. However, at least in the only place where actual Church policy had to change to spread the gospel, this is currently inaccurate.

    Polynesians, Melanesians, Negritos (that is the actual name for the racial group, there are a group who live in the Philipines and some other South-east Asian areas who have generally been pushed to the mountains and such by the Malays), Asians of all kinds, Native Americans from all the Americas and actually everyone else besides those of African descent.

    The actual full inclusion of Native Americans in the Church has at times been less than good, but they were ordained to th priesthood at all times through Church History.

    I have many friends and associates in the Church, including the only person I personally know who ran for congress, who are of African descent, and the most awesome person I baptized on my mission was such.

    I just want to make sure the record is set straight. Elder Kikuchi has been a member of the 1st Quorum of Seventy since 1976.

  • Tlingit
    Aug. 7, 2010 5:50 p.m.

    @dave | 3:24 p.m. Aug. 7, 2010

    Wow, I would hate to live a life so full of duplicity and contradictions.

    o You run a business in Utah, so obviously you see nothing wrong with taking profit from Mormons, yet you "avoid Mormon owned businesses."

    o You claim to be discriminated against in Utah, yet claim the right to discriminate against Mormons. How does that work? The ole "two wrongs make a right" excuse?

    o You "spread the word about Utah's evil empire" yet "love it due to the geography." Don't you know that Mormons are the ones who made this geography livable?

    o You claim you believe in democracy and autonomy of states, but not for Utah. Utah needs to change its "foolish" laws to conform with other states.

    Yeah, I understand why not everyone would embrace the Church as our family did, but on the other hand, I really don't see myself being happy living so angry and inconsistent.

    Live and let live I guess.

  • Demiurge
    Aug. 7, 2010 5:51 p.m.

    Exactly right atl134. The LDS being involved in Prop 8 has severely hurt impressions of the church here in my part of CA. The measure would have gone down to quiet defeat were it not for the money and the chanting groups on street corners.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan
    Aug. 7, 2010 5:52 p.m.

    Exactly how are we supposed to increase the number of people who realize that the basic belief claims of the Church are that it is the restored Church of Christ, or increase above 25% the percentage of those who know that Mormons do not practice polygamy, without sharing about the Church?

    People like Atheist can gripe about us sharing our message all they want, but until they can explain a way to increase the knowledge of others without sharing what we know I remain unconvinced.

    No matter how good and upstanding of a person I am it will not change the perception of the Church if I never say I am a Mormon. Beyond this, I have learned that no matter how much a person knowns about me and my family I still have to tell them point blank that Mormons do not practice polygamy for them to accept that, and even then many say I lie.

  • ds7
    Aug. 7, 2010 5:52 p.m.

    the practice of "knocking on doors" to "bring people religion" or even a "message from jesus christ" puts mormons in the same demographic as jehovah's witnesses.

    the era for "tracting" for "investigators" has passed. it's doing more harm than good.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan
    Aug. 7, 2010 6:04 p.m.

    To LOL,
    By "our youth" do you mean LDS youth or US youth? If you are claiming lots of LDS youth are registering as Democrats and trying to say this is somehow bad, you have an odd position. At many levels this is a good thing, at least if the theory that Glen Beck hurts the Church is valid, and at worst it is a neutral thing. Registered Democrats can and do serve missions, marry in the temple, hold church callings, serve in the first presidency and many other things in the Church. It is not a "the shy-is-falling" event, and I would expect a Glen Beck hater to realize this.

    The fact is that the majority of Americans are not secularists or atheists. Prop 8 was supported by a majority of voters in California. These may lead to the media elites hating us, and may then lead to them trying to smear the Church more, but they do not directly explain the dislike of the Church in most of the US. Indirectly maybe, but directly no.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan
    Aug. 7, 2010 6:12 p.m.

    atl134,
    Do you have any friends who are other than extreme liberals?
    The fact of the matter is that the majority of people in California voted for Prop-8. More people in the US support than oppose such measures. So it is clear that your sampling of friends is not representative of the US as a whole.

    Beyond this, how much of this is actually because of what the Church did, and how much of this is a result of the misrepresentation and lies thrown at the Church over the matter.

    Missionaries in no way expressed support for Prop 8. Claims that they did are lies. The Church was not funneling tax exempt donations to Yes on 8, it donated no money. It did make in-kind donations of time and resources, but those constituted less than 1% of all money expended in the effort.

    The claims about how many volunteers were LDS or how much of the money came from Latter-day Saints are all suspect. Religion is not reported on voter forms, contributors of less than $100 (like myself) are anonymous, and so.

  • jimhale
    Aug. 7, 2010 6:21 p.m.

    What chanting groups on street corners in California?

    The only chanting people I saw on my Oregon news were the "no on h8te" groups who were blocking the entrances to LDS temples.

  • wild flower
    Aug. 7, 2010 6:37 p.m.

    Mormons need to cool their jets and remember they are not better than all other peoples (TRIBES OF PEOPLE) just because they were raise to believe so. It is a narcissist society to think you are better than others who exist on this earth.

  • LDS Liberal
    Aug. 7, 2010 7:04 p.m.

    OK, another personal example....

    After living out of the bubble for 22 years, we move back to Utah.

    At work, I do my thing, live my life.

    After about 6 months, a gal comes up to me and asked if I was a "Mormon."

    When I asked her why, and was it because I didn't smoke or drink coffee (the 'normal' que in LIBERAL Seattle) her answer shocked me.

    Remember this is right here IN Utah...

    Her said, ...
    "You treat me just like everyone else."

    I was stunned, so I asked why that was the reason she had to ask if I was LDS.

    She continued....
    "...did you know I was gay?"

    I said, "No. I thought maybe?...but it didn't matter to me one way or the other."

    She broke down and cried and said, "I've lived here my whole life, and No-one has EVER been that nice or treated me just like everyone else.....especially Mormons."

    My reply - "look, we're all going to Hell -- not one of us is perfect. My only chance of Salvation is to love everyone, be nice to others, and then beg for mercy."

    So much for the WordofWisdom.

  • onewhotries
    Aug. 7, 2010 7:43 p.m.

    Been busy with other things so just getting to respond to those who were offended by what I said,;and for that, I am sorry.
    I'm also Sorry that you did not get the point I was trying to make.
    For example; if you have a degree in, say science, and I discover something, anything, that surpasses what you already learned,and you're satisfied with what you know, great! But, what I discover, if it's valididated by other scientists and I offer it to you then I am offering more knowledge, that which you were lacking.It doesn't take away the fact that you're a scientist , it only strengthens and adds to your knowledge making you a better scientist.
    I don't think of myself as better or smarter, etc., than you or anyone else. I just "question all things and hold fast to that which is good." I use to be a non-mormon,I didn't like the way some of them treated me and my children, I didn't like nor do I like it now that some LDS have a superior attitude; so again, if I sounded that way...SORRY!

  • John20000
    Aug. 7, 2010 8:01 p.m.

    Vote margin on Prop 8 was 599,602 more yes than no. There are about 540,000 Mormons in California. Even if every Mormon voted no, it still would have passed. Yet, Mormons are easy targets like they always have been. Rioting outside temples, vandalizing chapels, and intimidating members are just some of the no on h8te followers' tactics.

    Almost every Catholic and Jew in California voted yes on prop 8, but harassing a Jew would be anti-Semitic.

    What is amazing about that survey is who views Mormons in a bad light. Read it again.

  • Demiurge
    Aug. 7, 2010 8:36 p.m.

    There were Mormon groups with signs on every major intersection in this area during the weeks before the election. The local church build whatever you call it had its lawn covered with the signs.
    John20000 is suffering from bizarre math. Every vote moved from the yes to the no column shifts the count offset by two, one up, one down. it would have taken 300,000 votes to defeat the measure. In a state the size of California that's about 1%. The LDS Church indeed did funnel several million dollars in money and more in other things to the Yes on Prop 8 campaign. The Church has already admitted once to submitting an incomplete (read false) statement on what it spent. Don't try and dodge out of it, you've earned whatever feeling you left behind.

  • atl134
    Aug. 7, 2010 8:39 p.m.

    @John

    Oh, first off, out of politeness, you already know me from a facebook group and my username here isn't as forthcoming about that as yours (Andy Lesage)

    "Do you have any friends who are other than extreme liberals?"

    Since I'm LDS, more than what you might be thinking, however, my comment referred to non-member friends so they wouldn't count and I don't have many non-member conservative friends.

    "The fact of the matter is that the majority of people in California voted for Prop-8."

    Can't argue with that, nor can I argue with the fact that more support those kinds of things than oppose. However... those that oppose it got a massive drop in their view of the church (heck, I haven't paid tithing in 20 months now so I'd like to thank prop 8 for allowing me to pay off a student loan). I don't see supporters getting a large increase in their view of the church. We're still the quirky Christians or those perverters of Christianity (or whatever the chrisitans who hate us call it)... just convenient allies to them, that's all.

  • atl134
    Aug. 7, 2010 8:40 p.m.

    "Almost every Catholic and Jew in California voted yes on prop 8"

    Would you like to share the stats on that? (after all, Catholics dominate that gay friendly northeastern US).

  • atl134
    Aug. 7, 2010 8:46 p.m.

    Looking up CNN's exit polls for Prop 8, Protestants were 65-35, Catholics were 64-36, Jews didn't have a high enough sample size for the results to be given there. Non-religious were 10-90.

    White evangelicals were 81-19. that's as close as you're going to get.

  • skeptic
    Aug. 7, 2010 9:47 p.m.

    John Pack Lambert; It is a little bit ingenuous when you say you Mormons don't practice polygmy. You may not practice it today, but you believe in it. It is written in your scriptures. It is like others saying that they don't practice racial discrimination, but they believe in it. If you believe in it then it is in your heart, and to say that you don't practice it is a cover up.

  • Ridgely
    Aug. 7, 2010 10:55 p.m.

    To John Pack Lambert of Michigan at 5.36pm.
    I only mentioned the Pride Parade and the Days of 47 Parade as examples of community events in Salt Lake City where only one portion of the community participates and/or feels welcome. I meant no offense. If that example doesn't work for you then insert The Boy Scouts Jamboree and the Sustainable Green Living Festival, or anything else.

    We have plenty of segregated programs, events, and venues in Salt Lake City but very few that are inclusive for the entire community. Structurally that makes for a divided and I believe weaker, less trusting, and less neighborly city.

    So I reiterate my central point. Where are our community events and civil spaces where EVERYONE can be included and be together UNCONDITIONALLY?

  • Gordon T.
    Aug. 7, 2010 11:06 p.m.

    There are good and bad people in every religion. What people object to is the controlling nature of the church. This produces people who have a skewed sense of reality. Every religion is a cult to some extent, however the church seems to control its people to an extent that people view as very unrealistic. Mormons who are not tithing are discriminated and not seen as "members". If Christians who are not Mormon knew what the church actually believes in very very few would consider them Christian.

  • donburi
    Aug. 7, 2010 11:11 p.m.

    @onewhotries: I got your point (and I'm sure that most did). Nice posts. Thanks.

  • durwood kirby
    Aug. 7, 2010 11:17 p.m.

    By their fruits shall ye know them. If the fruits are good, the good vibes will come with them.

  • zinnia
    Aug. 7, 2010 11:41 p.m.

    OOOOOOH PLEASE!!!!!! Good grief, Heck sakes! You folks are all ready for the funny farm. What a hilarious people!

  • silverlaker
    Aug. 8, 2010 12:05 a.m.

    Re: John20000 | 8:01 p.m. Aug. 7, 2010

    "Almost every Catholic and Jew in California voted yes on prop 8, but harassing a Jew would be anti-Semitic."

    Orthodoxy makes up approximately 11% of American Jewry. Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist congregations all accept and welcome gay Jews including ordaining them as clergy.

    I don't know how you could make such a statement on who voted for prop 8. It is just not accurate.

  • Joggle
    Aug. 8, 2010 2:23 a.m.

    @Alberta Reader

    It is presumptuous to think I'm negative because I simply disagree with you or because I have an opposing opinion. Naturally you will have a negative reaction to an opposing view, but I'm not responible for your negative reaction....you are. I'm not irritated; I'm only strongly opinionated. You wouldn't expect me to agree with you when I don't in order for you to have a more positive view of me, would you? I can't help that you don't like my opinion! I have a right to disagree.

    I'm happy to report I am never irritated when I post here or I wouldn't.

  • Dennis
    Aug. 8, 2010 8:06 a.m.

    Mormons are "Mormons". That's the problem in a nutshell.

  • JoeBlow
    Aug. 8, 2010 8:32 a.m.

    To John Pack

    "Catholics don't proselytize? You have an awful lot to learn. Catholics are among the most active proselytizers in the world."

    I have yet to have one come to my door, have you?

    In other countries, I do believe they work to introduce those who are not Christians to Christianity and specifically Catholicism as part of their relief work.

    But I have never heard of Catholics hitting up Christians for conversion.


  • my slc
    Aug. 8, 2010 2:17 p.m.

    jimhaleL

    "What chanting groups on street corners in California?"

    I keep a house in Newport Beach and SLC. You must not have been in Irvine. The crowds were thick on the corners and chanting and singing during drive time and weekends.

    It was a nightly game to see how many lawn signs could disappear. The ward had signs on the lawn.

    It was a bitter campaign and there are still ugly overtones around.

  • Nostradamus
    Aug. 8, 2010 3:46 p.m.

    Huh....nearly 200 posts on this article. So far only 8 on the 10 aid workers killed. Funny where this very average article has taken the discussion. I am LDS, I am happy to be, I happen to agree with the Church's stance on gay marriage (oh, yes and everything else - you see I believe the Lord is leading the Church), I agree the people in the Church are not perfect and I am tolerant of other religions...the Church does way more good than any other Church I have seen..I was a missionary and I was treated nicely by most and experienced some very rude and crude treatment, this wasn't appreciated by me, but I understand everyone has their rights. I feel bad that there are members of my faith that do bad things, but I am extremely proud of the many that do so many good things. I am also amazed at how many good people, LDS or NOT that are wonderful and good people. Now back to the good articles and GO UTES!

  • Pagan
    Aug. 8, 2010 5:01 p.m.

    Perhaps if the LDS church practiced more tolorance...

    Or excomunicate Glen Beck.

    One of the two.

  • Alberta Reader
    Aug. 8, 2010 5:10 p.m.

    Joggle
    Who knows we may become friends yet. Conversation even like this seems to have that effect.
    I understand the point you are making.
    It was Jesus Christ himself that said "Go ye unto all the nations and preach and baptize in my name."
    So all Christians should be trying to share a message if indeed they follow the Saviour.
    Thus the Missionary program and "message" you referred to.
    I just had a son return from a mission and my other son serves in Iowa at the present. As a parent you love them and miss their physical presence greatly.
    I am sad when I hear how my sons have been treated at times. If you are a parent you will understand what I just said.
    So next time you come across missionaries trying to do their job. Think of parents missing their sons and how you would like your sons to be treated if they were in the same position. We can all respectfully agree to disagree. I am sure we could be friends given the chance. I do hope you read this.

  • daizy
    Aug. 8, 2010 8:00 p.m.

    Why why why? Why do most posts always end up with a few LDS who always like pointing out the faults or comparing the LDS church to the Catholics or the Jews. So when you get in trouble do always say to others LOOK they did it first waa waaa! What a lot of crybaby tattle-tails.

  • Old Scarecrow
    Aug. 8, 2010 10:46 p.m.

    OK, let's see if I have this straight: All of the unhappy people in Utah would become happy if they could buy cars on Sunday, buy liquor everyday at the supermarket, and if it were illegal for the majority of citizens in Utah to vote for a member of their own faith for political office. All of the complainers would then say Utah is a great a place to live and would find other targets for their disappointments, frustrations and anger. Personally, all of that seems like a small price to pay to see the anger disappear from the comment pages and opinion pages of the media. But, hmm, for some reason, I have doubts that the anger would dispappear. Wonder why?

  • K
    Aug. 8, 2010 11:09 p.m.

    Who cares what percent of ca is lds?

    Lots of out of town groups and individual celebs who do not live there also donated time and money.

  • JM
    Aug. 9, 2010 12:02 a.m.

    Many of these comments are by people who attack the Church full time. They are everywhere promoting hate, this is one reason why people don't understand the wonderful, kind, open minded LDS people that I know.

  • PapaCorn
    Aug. 9, 2010 12:35 a.m.

    This has to be one of the most insipid and articles ever written. Even more ridiculous are the comments that this has generated.

    What does it matter what others think of the LDS church? Think Jesus would have cared about opinion polls? Wouldn't it have been a heck of a lot better if he had simply backtracked on the whole "son of God" thing?

    Wouldn't Joseph and Hyrum have also benefited by caring more about public opinions? Joseph certainly could have said it was a complete fabrication and denounced that he had a vision.

    The intolerance for LDS beliefs on these boards is astounding. But to me it simply affirms that there are narrow minded people that have a bitter hatred for the LDS faith, for life in Utah, and/or for conservatives and feel the need to spend their free time trying to diminish the faiths and beliefs of others.

    Personally, I'm not shocked that Mormons don't have a favorable view from others. At the same time...I don't care.

  • The Caravan Moves On
    Aug. 9, 2010 2:06 a.m.

    Personally, I'd stick with "we are", not "we claim".

    Sure, one is more bold than the other but then again, it's true so why water it down?

    One actually can say "we are" without being offensive. It the listener wants to get offended, that's his choice.

    Again, it's how you say "we are" that is the key.

    Say it with a haughty attitude and you'll turn people off. Say it with a quiet dignity and humility in your voice (and your heart) and most people will respect you for your declaration.

    Just my 2 cents...

  • raybies
    Aug. 9, 2010 6:43 a.m.

    I'm not a fan of this article. It seems more like a sort of "blame the victim" mentality, that is so pervasive already among idealogues. I have a number of ideas that might improve LDS/World relations, but everyone using a new set of words seems pretty nit-picky. Most members can do little to influence world events--we just try to be good neighbors and hope our children don't cave to the carnal/sensual/devilish alternatives offered by the world--and thus in so doing give our name another black mark.

  • LDS Liberal
    Aug. 9, 2010 8:24 a.m.

    JM | 12:02 a.m. Aug. 9, 2010
    Many of these comments are by people who attack the Church full time. They are everywhere promoting hate, this is one reason why people don't understand the wonderful, kind, open minded LDS people that I know.
    ===================

    No JM,

    Please re-read the article.

    Many of these comments reflect EXACTLY what most Americans percieve about the Church.

    I'm not saying you don't know of any of the mean, judgemental, holier-than-thou, prideful, bigot members....but they do exist.

    You can either continue to be a denier, or come out of your little bubble - face reality -- and think about what WE should be doing differently.

  • Whos Life RU Living?
    Aug. 9, 2010 8:39 a.m.

    Alberta Reader,

    Please pardon me on jumping in on your conviction of Joggle being pessimistic. Let me ask you a few questions.

    Could you be optimistic about the idea that there is no God? Can you optimistically support the idea that Joseph Smith was a false prophet and was one of the greatest con men to ever live?

    If you can't you are a pessimist?

    Is there no such thing as an optimistic Atheist or any other non religious person?

    Because Joggle may sound negative because he might disagree with the religious beliefs on this board it is not right to judge him/her as a pessimistic person. I am optimistic that Joggle simply just disagrees, just as you disagree with the idea of Santa Claus being real.


    On another note, I respect the sacrifice your family is making to put your sons out on missions. I hope they grow and learn a lot, just as I did.

  • Whos Life RU Living?
    Aug. 9, 2010 8:53 a.m.

    To The Caravan Moves On:

    If I say I know the church is false, what type of feelings do you experience toward me?

    How about if I say I believe/think the church is false, what type of feelings do you think toward me?

    I am just curious. One is less arrogant wouldn't you say?

  • manateeshirt
    Aug. 9, 2010 10:43 a.m.

    A few thoughts after reading all this...

    Wasn't Joseph Smith told by an angel when he was 14 that his name would be had for both good and evil among all nations? Why are we suprised that anyone associated with the name Joseph Smith in anyway experiences the same?

    Christ was perfect, the members of His church... are not. SHOCKING. Imperfect people are SO irritating! RARR!

    Ezra Taft Benson's Adress "Beware of Pride." Two types of pride. From the top down and the bottom up. This comment board is filled with one of those... you guess.

    Oh. I love living in Utah.

    Instead of waiting for a mormon to come do something for you... why dont you go and do something for a mormon?

    It is only when people stopped hating on the church that we would have something to worry about. As long as the world keeps laying it on thick the members of the church can rest assured that they are doing something right and being "in the world but not of the world."

    Thats all.

  • Candide
    Aug. 9, 2010 11:49 a.m.

    Perhaps the reputation of the LDS church would be better if they stayed out of the politics of other states. Their money blocked gay marriage in Hawaii and California. At least justice will prevail in the end.

  • mkSdd3
    Aug. 9, 2010 12:12 p.m.

    I tried to read all the comments, I could hardly stomach what I was reading. There seems to be a lot of hate and bitterness out there.

    The only conclusion that can be made after reading these comments is that there are a lot of people that have very strong opinions and they will not be swayed.

    For those that hate Mormons: most of their opinion is based off incorrect perceptions, misinformation, or plain old bias. There is nothing that can be said that will change their opinion. We should continue to treat them kindly, but we should stop trying to change their mind. Their mind is set and it is closed.

    For others that still have an open mind, we can still live our standards, correct misconceptions where they exist, and living as close to a Christ like life as possible. That is all that can be done and all that Christ would have you do.

  • Joggle
    Aug. 9, 2010 12:30 p.m.

    @Alberta Reader

    My non-belief goes much further than my rejection of ALL religion. Since you mentioned Jesus...no one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people rather than from a witness' own knowledge so in that regard there is no basis to believe in that direction either. While the possibility exists that an actual Jesus lived, a more likely possibility reveals that a mythology could have arrived totally out of earlier mythologies.

    As far as missionairies are concerned from any religion that approaches my door...I say the least amount possible to them while getting the point across that I don't wish to talk to them. My husband left the Church before I met him without oficially resigning and it those people that find me instead of him. I have had to more forcefully tell to stop bothering us after they didn't get the hint th first time. One more time and he'll go straight to the bishop to request "no contact".

    I have no problem if others need for religion though.

  • Joggle
    Aug. 9, 2010 12:42 p.m.

    @Alberta Reader

    By the way....and I wrote this before...there are positive aspects to religion....such as charity....but many of the same positives aspects can be accomplished without religion, too.

  • Joggle
    Aug. 9, 2010 1:01 p.m.

    @mkSdd3

    Your statement reflects part of the problem. Although there may be many who do have incorrect perceptions, misinformation, or plain old bias of Mormons...not all of us do. You go on to say people who don't accept the Mormon religion and claims are closed-minded without realizing that many who examine it with an open mind still come to the conclusion that it's not true. Correcting misconceptions and information still may not bring them to belief. When you insinuate that people are somehow flawed or close-minded perhaps you should consider that perhaps it is you who may be that way.

    When you mention hate and bitterness (which may be a misconception of yours) you fail to realize that people may have good reasons to feel disdain and that the message (as a whole, doctrine etc.) is to blame rather than the person receiving it.

  • Demiurge
    Aug. 9, 2010 1:02 p.m.

    If I have the time I love missionaries coming to my door. If they leave still believing in any superstition I haven't done my job.

    mkSdd3, don't you just wish it was based on something other than knowledge of just what the church is. Of course the typical dodge is to counter any claim by saying THAT writing is not canonical or we don't really believe that.

  • LDS Liberal
    Aug. 9, 2010 2:25 p.m.

    It's like Tibetian monks.

    How many of you good LDS people really know their doctrine or beliefs?

    What is your perception of them as a people??



    This article is about negative perceptions of the LDS church and the Mormons.

    Stop playing defense and denial, and listen to what is being said.

    We have a problem,
    now, let's listen and deal with it.

  • mkSdd3
    Aug. 9, 2010 3:19 p.m.

    @ Joggle and Demiurge

    You support my position perfectly. All I said is that you do not want to hear any correction to your unsupported ideas. Your mind is made up and closed on the subject of Mormons. They are all wrong and bad people.

    I am not talking about Mormon beliefs nor am I talking about religious teachings. Your mind is closed to the concept that Mormons might be good people with good ideas.

    My suggestion to everyone on this board is to leave you and anyone like you alone. You don't want to be bothered.

  • Just Truth
    Aug. 9, 2010 3:52 p.m.

    Jesus gained favor with God and man, but in the end His allegiance was to God and not man, who after all crucified Him.

    Mormon's are on the Lord's side, and when all is said and done will not worry about favor with the natural man, who in large part will reject God anyway.

    It is sad that there are misconceptions about Mormons and their beliefs as there were misconceptions about Jesus too, but if people are willing to look closer the incorrect negative perceptions (lies) will go away and truth will be revealed.

    Mormons need not apologize about negative perceptions of what are actually Christlike teachings and practices. Let the naysayers, spew their hate against Mormons, and inadvertently against the Savior. It will only reflect badly on them when they are missing the mark (Christ and His gospel). We could argue that Jesus needed a better PR agent as well, but that still wouldn't absolve anyone from recognizing and receiving the truth and the perfect being whose truth it is.

  • Demiurge
    Aug. 9, 2010 3:59 p.m.

    I know Mormons who are good people. I wasn't referring to them at all. There are misguided people of every religion. My next door neighbor is Mormon, and a good guy, but not someone I share the slightest political or religious beliefs with. Our yard signs are generally directly opposite, as they were on Prop 8.

    But in reality you were simply trying to dodge the issue again.

  • mkSdd3
    Aug. 9, 2010 4:45 p.m.

    @LDS Liberal | 2:25 p.m. Aug. 9, 2010

    You seem to think that we have not heard the complaints being posted here. We have heard the problems, I'll even try to sum them up.

    1. Mormon church is controlling the politics in the state of Utah

    2. Mormons supported Prop 8

    3. Mormons are mean, judgmental, holier-than-thou, prideful, bigots

    Now most Mormons being told these thing will tend to defend themselves. We will not just give up our rights to run for office or to vote just because someone thinks we have a lot of influence in the state of Utah.

    As for the 3rd reason above, well I guess we should all give up Mormonism just because someone misunderstands me.

    The original article asks us to try to and put a better foot forward to make perceptions change about Mormons, but most of the people here have their notions about Mormons and nothing will change their minds. There are not solutions, and frankly it isn't even my problem.

  • Independent
    Aug. 9, 2010 5:31 p.m.

    When you stand for something, you automatically make enemies who will look for anything and everything wrong with you. We could make friends with everybody if we just stopped standing anything.

    I understand the importance of appreciating diversity, and I'm glad that I grew up and live outside of Utah. I understand the importance of being accepting of people with different cultural and religious backgrounds than your own. But sometimes it would be nice to not have to defend my beliefs all of the time. It would be nice not to have to explain to everyone why I don't drink alcohol. It would be nice if I didn't have to explain polygamy over and over again, despite the fact that I've never practiced it. It would be nice to know that Utah would always be there if I ever got tired of being the minority. I can understand that it must be difficult for people to understand my religion, and it must be difficult to be a non-mormon in Utah, but how do you think I feel?

  • Demiurge
    Aug. 9, 2010 5:59 p.m.

    It's one thing to stand for something, another thing to buy an election in states where your followers are a very small minority.

  • Joggle
    Aug. 9, 2010 6:24 p.m.

    @mkSdd3

    Wow...I'm astonished...because YOU have it completely wrong! I NEVER have said Mormons are not good people! Where did you get that I did? Of course, Mormons have good ideas....in general. I ONLY disagree with your doctrine and your religious beliefs. Mine are simply different. You disagree with them and that's fine with me. Are people not allowed to disagree with your religion without taking it as a attack on them personally. Are we expected to never disagree with you?

    One of my oldest and dearest friends is a mainstream Christian. I know she is very devout! She represents her religion in her actions and words, yet we have never spoken about her personal belief in God. Our opposing beliefs are accepted by one another and we know that both of us are good people. When all is said and done....we love one another and our religious beliefs don't matter!

    Sorry, but I haven't seen that much in Utah. Most Mormons never seem to be able to step away from their religion to just be people. Couldn't it be that Mormons don't understand people who don't belive the same?

  • Joggle
    Aug. 9, 2010 7:00 p.m.

    @Independent

    Who brings their religion up first? You or the person with a different cultural or religious background? Although I have debated religion on the internet in another forum the Mormons were not represented EVER. The mainstream Christians that were there treated people with different religious beliefs and non-beliefs pretty much like I am treated on this forum...like you shouldn't express your opposing opinion concerning their belief or disagree with them. If Mormons don't want people to disagree with them perhaps they should not feel so inclined to spread the word. If they feel inclined to spread the word or discuss their religion with people....they should expect differing opinions, questions, and disagreement. I rarely discuss religion outside this kind of forums because to do so...I too...would have to defend my beliefs. LDS does not have a patent on feeling they have to defend their beliefs. It goes both ways.

    You can always just say you don't drink because of you don't personally like to because of your religion and leave it at that. I've heard people not of your religion say they just don't like to drink.

  • LDS Liberal
    Aug. 9, 2010 7:37 p.m.

    Joggle | 7:00 p.m. Aug. 9, 2010
    You can always just say you don't drink because of you don't personally like to because of your religion and leave it at that. I've heard people not of your religion say they just don't like to drink.

    ===============

    Excellent point.

    By saying "I don't drink, it's against my Religion."

    Is like saying in essence,
    "Sure!, I'd love a good stiff one! Filler up, I dying for a shot of good hard brandy.... oh, wait...I can't, someone at Church told me I shouldn't."


    I don't DRINK because I choose not. Period. The End.

    [My religion only tells me "why" I should not.]


    That's why I'm Liberal.
    I choose to do what I'm doing,
    I am not dictated, shunned, or coerced to do something 'for my own good'.

    That was Lucifer's plan.

  • Joggle
    Aug. 9, 2010 8:11 p.m.

    It seems to me after reading these comments that the Mormons would like to run unopposed in this forum and that people with different beliefs shouldn't be allowed their opinion. People of different beliefs are trying to tell you why your religion is perceived negatively or unfavorably, but you don't seem to be listening! Correcting misconceptions and giving more information may help in some cases....but many people will still view your doctrine as unbelievable and your rituals as weird...just stating the facts! If you can't answer questions to a listeners satisfaction or avoid them... people will walk away. If you can't overcome the objections, exclusivity, disbelief, and skepticism....then you will never change peoples minds. You blame the people that don't believe for being unable to believe your message rather than the message itself. It's not their fault that that they think the message is flawed or unbelievable...even if you don't. That alone will prevent anybody from considering it.

  • Joggle
    Aug. 9, 2010 8:30 p.m.

    @LDS Liberal

    I've agreed with many of your liberal comments in this forum! You at least seem to understand opposing beliefs to a larger extent than many LDS here so far as I have read your comments. Although I believe Lucifer to be a mythical being and a symbolic representation of evil....I can only say I know what you mean in the context you present....and smile to myself!

    I like Lucifer's plan! Heaven might be rather boring!

    That statement will probably offend somebody, huh?!

  • DavidD87
    Aug. 9, 2010 9:26 p.m.

    I am sorry to hear that there are those who do not have a correct understanding of what members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe and stand for. I have been a member of the Church for most of my life, and I can honestly say that I find a greater goodness and joy in it than I can find anywhere else. It means everything to me, and I hope that others will come to understand what it is all about; because amid all the criticism and false accusations, it is a source of peace and happiness to all those who sincerely embrace it.

  • Alberta Reader
    Aug. 9, 2010 10:34 p.m.

    Joggle
    Just to let you know I have read your comments to me and have thought about them.
    I however do beleive there is evidence that Jesus lived on the earth and is documented. We are measuring our time based on the birth of Christ it is now 2010 yrs since he was born. I could give the evidence later if desired.
    You are a fiesty one

  • The Deuce
    Aug. 9, 2010 11:25 p.m.

    In this day and age with all of the internet and information out there, I am suprised that there are so many people that have no idea of who Mormons are. I am not LDS and have simply taken the time to read about their doctrine and not about the many untruths that some would have you believe. While I do not believe in some of the same doctrine, I know when I read some of these posts that either the individual has no idea of what the Mormon doctrine is or they simply are spreading lies. In either case please don't write comments that are not at least truthful in nature. Whether you believe or not is your business. Be fair in your comments as some of these posts are a joke. Once again, I am not of the LDS faith.

  • Joggle
    Aug. 9, 2010 11:37 p.m.

    @DavidD87

    People find great joy and goodness in different things. You can't expect all people to find the same joy and goodness in the Church that you do. I know about your Church and it would actually make me feel a loss of freedom to be myself. It is too controlling and oppressive. If it fits your personality and brings you peace and happiness...that's great, but you can't expect that it will do the same for others.

  • Alberta Reader
    Aug. 10, 2010 12:28 a.m.

    The Deuce
    Thanks for your comments well put

  • LDS Liberal
    Aug. 10, 2010 8:57 a.m.

    Joggle | 8:30 p.m.

    Thanks, I've appreciated your comments as well.

    I've often wondered, I'm LDS, born and and raised in Utah, most of my family lives here -- and I still have a difficult time living here amongst the 'saints'.
    Such closed minds, and hard-hearts! Not what I was taught in sunday school.

    Listening and understanding any all views, including those opposing my own - was the most valuable thing I learned in college.

    It's funny, I also remember LDS missionaries running around trying to convert others - praying for THEM to open their minds and hearts, without EVER opening their OWN.
    [The first REAL application of what I learned about listening and understanding others!]

  • Joggle
    Aug. 10, 2010 9:25 a.m.

    @Alberta Reader

    You are welcome to present your evidence when you are able. I've researched the probability as to whether Jesus actually existed or not so I believe I can most likely refute your evidence, but you are welcome to try!

    Of course a historical Jesus may have existed, perhaps based loosely on a living human even though his actual history got lost, but this amounts to nothing but speculation. However we do have an abundance of evidence supporting the mythical evolution of Jesus. Virtually every detail in the gospel stories occurred in pagan and/or Hebrew stories, long before the advent of Christianity. We simply do not have a shred of evidence to determine the historicity of a Jesus "the Christ." We only have evidence for the belief of Jesus.

  • zinnia
    Aug. 10, 2010 10:10 a.m.

    Joggle and LDS liberal

    I am LDS. I understand clearly what you are both saying. However, don't ever expect the stubborn people of Utah to listen to anything they think is below them.

    I had a few LDS turn their backs on me when I needed a friend and thought they were my friends but learned differently. none the less life goes on.

    My Dog is my loyal buddy and I don't need any fake friends.

  • mkSdd3
    Aug. 10, 2010 11:24 a.m.

    @Joggle | 6:24 p.m. Aug. 9, 2010

    You say that you do not hate Mormons, say I got it all wrong, but you yourself used the word disdain to describe your feelings towards Mormons. Maybe you should get out the dictionary.

    You say that everyone is attacking you because you do not believe the same way they do. No one has attacked you they have only defended themselves from your attacks.

    You are certainly welcome to your opinions and I have not said one thing about them. In fact I was asking everyone to recognize your opinion and the fact that your opinion was set. I was asking people to stop trying to change your opinion. You seem hyper sensitive to me. Maybe you should follow the advice to "live and let live".

  • SLC gal
    Aug. 10, 2010 11:56 a.m.

    Bash the church all you want. Because I am a member of the church, I am a better person, and I guarantee, if you knew me, you wouldn't find me "unfavorable".

  • Joggle
    Aug. 10, 2010 2:15 p.m.

    Thanks for your post, Zinnia! Substitute my loyal cats for your loyal dog and we both feel the same!! Sincerity is a meritorious virtue!

  • fuziz
    Aug. 10, 2010 2:35 p.m.

    To John Packer of Mich. -
    You asked how you are supposed to let other people know your beliefs if you don't discuss them. I live in Utah. I know exactly what your beliefs are. I am not interested. You would have to hold a gun to my head to get me to convert. So, let's move beyond that. Do you like skiing? Do you like baseball? What do you find funny?
    Now, granted, from your name, I assume you live outside Utah. It's okay for you to explain your doctrine to anyone who seems interested. But remember, a lot of people just aren't interested. Talk about baseball or something.
    I am episcopalean, bordering on agnostic. I discuss it about twice a year. Though I can tell you exactly who of my coworkers are mormon, I guarantee not one of them knows I am episcopalian. They just know I am not mormon. And that is fine.
    For mormons living in Utah, at least, the best service you can do to create a 'normal' perception of your church is to not mention callings, temple work, etc. in conversations with non-mormons.

  • Joggle
    Aug. 10, 2010 2:54 p.m.

    @mkSdd3

    I'm sure DN is going to post my first response so here is the shortened version. Thanks for clarifying, but you still have misconceptions and that leads me to think YOU are hyper-sensitive. I hope this clarifies!

    Simply put....I separate you from your religion. It is your religion I have disdain for....not you personally. You might be an absolutely wonderful person personally! You obviously don't understand how your posts have come across to me though. I don't view disagreement with my views and beliefs as an attack, however I do view statements attacking my character, motives, etc....such as saying I'm a negative person or unworthy to post to rather than debating the issue on logical grounds and merits as an attack.

    Your religion may be bring you much joy and happiness....but you can't expect it to bring the same to everybody. I don't think most people here are trying to change my opinion except maybe a limited few. I certainly am not trying to change opinion either. If anything, I'm just presenting a view of an opposing belief. If it gets people thinking....so be it!

  • Independent
    Aug. 10, 2010 3:00 p.m.

    To Joggle: "It goes both ways."

    That's all I'm saying. I don't make it a point tell everybody that I'm Mormon and spew out what I believe whether they asked for it or not, but I don't feel that I should have to hide it either. There other people in this world that do rude things or make mistakes, but where I live, if that person also happens to be a Mormon, it's the Mormonness that becomes the issue, and suddenly I have to defend my mormonness to everybody who heard about the incident. Is that fair? Some people in Northern Arizona practice polygamy, and I have to explain it to everybody and prove that I don't engage in the same practice. Is that fair?

  • mkSdd3
    Aug. 10, 2010 3:36 p.m.

    @Joggle | 2:54 p.m. Aug. 10, 2010

    I am glad to hear that you only hate the Mormon part of me. I am also glad to hear that you can separate the Mormon part of me from what ever is left over. I can not do that my self. Being LDS is part of me, it is in me and through me. Being Mormon is not something that I can just put aside when I do not wish to be offensive. It is with me 24/7.

    Just to be clear if you hate my religion you are hating part of me. It is like you saying you hate my head but the rest of you I don't find offensive at all.

  • zinnia
    Aug. 10, 2010 4:01 p.m.

    My problem as a member of the LDS church is that I cannot be controlled by the controllers. I watch members try to control friendships, people and try to start silly cliquish neighborhood circles, and exclude all others who don't wish to be controlled by CLIQUISH members. There is always a leader of these circles. My own personal opinion about this are that these are the most 'miserable' members within the church with their noses high in the air and always have their noses in everyone's face..... Now please guys don't you jump in all at once and gang up on me. Remember I have a dog.

  • Joggle
    Aug. 10, 2010 5:45 p.m.

    mkSdd3

    I don't hate you! I never said I did. You are the one who assumes I hate your religion or you personally. I don't even know you. I don't even hate your religion. There are some positive aspects as well as negative aspects. The aspects I see as negative is what I simply disagree with and don't see in a positive light. I'm sure you could look at me the same way! I expect that. Do you hate me for my beliefs which are a part of me? It goes both ways....the disdain! If you can never step away from your religion....it will be difficult for you to understand much of the world that differs from yours....just saying!

  • Alberta Reader
    Aug. 10, 2010 6:49 p.m.

    Joggle
    My evidence is as follows, Google
    Are Science and Christianity Compatible
    It will bring up a website about Jesus from scholars. This website has nothing to do with the LDS church as well.

  • wild flower
    Aug. 10, 2010 7:23 p.m.

    Joggles has a right to her own personal views and beliefs. No one has the right to tell her she is wrong. She believes like many people outside the church with a strong conviction of what she believes to be true and that is her prerogative to do so. Everyone on this earth has their own free agency rather any of you believe this, or not?. Not everyone cares or believes in Mormonism.

    There are many good people outside the church that do not believe. I know Mormons who are active who are much worse and hypocritical than those they slam around and call apostates and antis. Believe me this is the truth.

  • Joggle
    Aug. 10, 2010 7:57 p.m.

    @wild flower

    I appreciate your thoughts, but I have one correction. People do have the right to tell me they think I'm wrong, however when they do...I expect them to present very strong evidence to back their claims or beliefs. Although some do present evidence...it is usually not certain or reasonable enough to change my beliefs or opinion. Many others attempts at discussion just turn into unproductive exchanges based on emotion instead of facts and evidence. For some faith is enough...for others....it will never be enough. Thanks!

  • Joggle
    Aug. 10, 2010 8:32 p.m.

    @Alberta Reader

    I would be glad to review your source, but I don't know which one under the "Are Science and Christianity Compatible" applies since there is more than one. I will look some more, but if you could give me more direction it would help.

    One of my favorite sources can be Googled with: Jesus did not exist....look for nobeliefs. There are others, but I like that one and the writer does provide his sources.

  • mkSdd3
    Aug. 10, 2010 9:10 p.m.

    Joggle,

    All I can do is read your comments above, in then you say you have disdain for me and then you say it is not me but my religion that you have disdain for. Sorry if I have misread your comments to me.

    You ask if I have hate for you or your beliefs. From the very little you have told us in your comments you lean towards atheism. If that is correct I do not hate, have disdain, or any ill feeling towards you. I wouldn't care in you were Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist. I am not a hater, no matter what you believe. And I am quite sure that 95% of Mormons wouldn't care what you believe either.

  • daizy
    Aug. 10, 2010 10:40 p.m.

    I think the best thing anyone can do for another person is to simply mind their own business. Sometimes people gossip and back bite because they have a very low self image of themselves and have nothing better to do with their time but to find fault, condemn and battle with others. I think people just need to stop hating everyone that get in their way and let everyone live their own funny lives anyway they choose.

    Good luck to you all!!! and happy religion whatever religion that might be :oB
    A cat lady.

  • Joggle
    Aug. 11, 2010 12:14 a.m.

    @Alberta Reader

    I think I found the link you suggested and I read it. None of it is new and is refuted quite well in my suggested link. I think you under-estimate how much I know about religion, belief, and related subjects. I have researched it thoroughly...I still do.

  • Joggle
    Aug. 11, 2010 11:13 a.m.

    mkSdd3

    Just to go a step further...I have less of a problem with simple belief in a deity or God than I do with organized religion as a whole. When people separate themselves by religious doctrine and rituals it often creates alienation and conflict based on the "my religion is true and yours isn't." Although people sometimes tend to view me to be very close to being an atheist (which is true) I'm actually an agnostic/pantheist. It would be arrogant for me to say I KNOW with absolute certainty that there is NOT a biblical type God the same as I tend to think it is arrogant for a person to say they KNOW with absolute certainty there is a God. Faith is not certainty. If anybody could prove the existence of the biblical type God.....there would be no dispute over whether one exists and no dispute about what he/she/it is.

    When I asked you if you hated me or my beliefs it was an attempt to get you to see that I could just as well assume you hate me and my beliefs from YOUR posts, but I didn't.

  • LDS Liberal
    Aug. 11, 2010 11:43 a.m.

    Joggle --

    I sincerely apologize for somee members of my "faith".

    Sometimes they can be decieving by claiming they "Know" something.

    No one "KNOWS" God lives -
    but I believe he does, and I also believe some may have even seen him.

    But, that is the purpose of life.
    To walk by and have "Faith".

    If we truley know something - we no longer have faith, and the plan is foiled.

  • Frisbee player
    Aug. 11, 2010 12:27 p.m.

    @ Joggle

    "I certainly am not trying to change opinion either. If anything, I'm just presenting a view of an opposing belief."

    "When I asked you if you hated me or my beliefs it was an attempt to get you to see that I could just as well assume you hate me and my beliefs from YOUR posts, but I didn't. "

    The difference between our posts and your posts is that we are defending differing views by others. You say that you are simply "presenting a view of an opposing belief", but you write your posts as more of an attack rather than a differing of an opinion. Many others write differing opinions, yet they aren't attacks at us mormons(some are).

    You are welcome to your opinion and to even share your opinion. And you say you don't hate us. But you write as if you "disdain", despise and hate us. You come across as "offended" and "bitter" at us. You redicule and mock our beliefs.

    We do not attack you, but you surely attack us.

  • Frisbee player
    Aug. 11, 2010 12:38 p.m.

    @ Joggle

    "I certainly am not trying to change opinion either. If anything, I'm just presenting a view of an opposing belief."

    "When I asked you if you hated me or my beliefs it was an attempt to get you to see that I could just as well assume you hate me and my beliefs from YOUR posts, but I didn't. "

    The difference between our posts and your posts is that we are defending differing views by others. You say that you are simply "presenting a view of an opposing belief", but you write your posts as more of an attack rather than a differing of an opinion. Many others write differing opinions, yet they aren't attacks at us mormons(some are).

    You are welcome to your opinion and to even share your opinion. And you say you don't hate us. But you write as if you "disdain", despise and hate us. You come across as "offended" and "bitter" at us. You redicule and mock our beliefs.

    We do not attack you, but you surely attack us.

  • Joggle
    Aug. 11, 2010 2:52 p.m.

    @Frisbee Player

    Will DN let me defend myself to you? I'll try again. Criticism is a fact of life. All too often people see criticism as an attack on who they are. It is seen more as an insult, however in most cases it is not. I've already said (in different words) that I'm criticizing your religion...not you personally. Is your religion above criticism? What you want to focus on is not taking criticism that you perceive as attacks personally. I'm sorry if my criticism hurts you personally, but is that really my fault? You are welcome to criticize my beliefs as well, however if your criticisms attack my character rather than be an answer, defense, or discussion of the contentions and claims you make...I will treat you the same as you treat me. There may be times where it seems like I have attacked character, but with the limited number of words I can use....it is unintentional. I can't help that people take criticism of their religion as an attack on them personally. Perhaps you should consider how you come across to me as well. I hope you understand.

  • Joggle
    Aug. 11, 2010 3:11 p.m.

    @LDS Liberal

    Thank you for your understanding of our differences! I respect your faith despite being unable to have faith of a religious nature myself!

  • Joggle
    Aug. 11, 2010 4:11 p.m.

    An afterthought to Frissbee Player

    Note that this particuliar article is about Mormons being seen unfavorably and because of that the opinions of personal characteristics of LDS people as perceived by people outside the religion are a part of the responses. Those expressed by me aren't necessarily mine personally although some are, but are from those that I know (I come from another state)....including some former members of your Church.

  • Vanka
    Aug. 11, 2010 5:00 p.m.

    Joggle has said it well.

    I am reminded of a scene from an X-Men movie where a human doctor says they "just want to help the mutants". The "mutant" responds: "Do we look like we need your help?"

    It is offensive, patronizing, arrogant, and blind to presume you have some sort of "truth" that everyone else is lacking, and feel it your duty to "enlighten" those of us so "unworthy" to be unable to "see" your "truth".

    The very language you use is filled to the brim with presumptuous, offensive terms and ideas, and betrays your [erroneous] assumptions of moral superiority.

    Until you honestly and sincerely strip away such deeply-seated arrogance and pretense, you will continue to be looked upon with disdain.

  • Frisbee player
    Aug. 11, 2010 5:04 p.m.

    @ Joggle
    Now we are just playing word games with each other. You think you are a critic, I think you attack. Either way, I have a question for you. From this one article alone, how many comments did you make? Can you even count? When someone spends so much time making comment after comment that are, as you say, "critical" about a specific religion, wouldn't anyone draw the conclusion that that person has something against that religion, something more personal in nature?

    Why do you feel such a need to, if not attack, "criticize" mormons to an endless degree for simply trying to live their religion?

    Call it what you will, you seem obsessed to "criticize", "attack", "mock" and bring down the mormon church.

  • Joggle
    Aug. 11, 2010 6:26 p.m.

    @Frisbee Player

    So what if I made one or many comments? Why does it matter? Many were responses to other people. I enjoy debating and discussing issues including religion. Are you the forum monitor? Mormonism happens to be the dominant religion in Utah. I would treat any other religion the same. I'm not the only one who criticizes Mormonism on this forum! I have had some good exchanges with some LDS participants here, but unfortunately there are some....like you...who are the exact example of why Mormons are seen unfavorably! It's fine with me if you want to live your religion personally, but when you take it out into the public venue and think everyone else should live by your Mormonism and not criticize it....then people have a right to object and give their opinion. Too bad you don't realize that and instead decide it's personal when it is not!

    I've tried to explain some things to you, but obviously you don't understand and choose to be offended. That's your problem....not mine!

  • 1happycamper
    Aug. 11, 2010 7:17 p.m.

    I see said the blind cat >8+)

  • BevWel
    Aug. 12, 2010 6:08 p.m.

    Gee, one would think that many on this site want others to be tolerant but do not seem to have that quality themselves. I am a convert to the Church (since age 22 in 1959). I love being a Mormon and allow others to enjoy how they want to live. I am sorry there is so much negativity when the Church reaches out around the world and helps so many. I have many fine LDS and non-LDS friends. The Church may or may not be true in many people's minds but I have not found a better way to live. May God bless all!!

  • Joggle
    Aug. 12, 2010 8:41 p.m.

    In the eyes and ears of many the negative outweighs the positive and they have found the best way to live that is the best for them! Intolerance breeds intolerance breeds intolerance....tolerance breeds tolerance.

  • mrlhow
    Aug. 13, 2010 12:52 p.m.

    Enough already. Look, I don't care if you are Baptist, Catholic, Mormon or whatever. Just live your life as Christ would have you do. When people ask how you have handled a hardship, give the glory to God and they will see who you are and what you stand for in your religion. I live on the East Coast where I often refer to us as the red-headed step-children of the church BUT we do have substance. I remember a couple of young couples coming out here for college and went to an inner city branch. They moved to a more affluent area because they couldn't deal with something less than "perfect". They missed such an opportunity to experience life outside of "Happy Valley". Others have embraced a real world concept and have gone home with much more understanding and compassion. They were the winners and true Christians. There are the strong and weak in any faith. Just be the best that you can be. Others WILL pick up on it. (Don't be pushy, just real!)

  • Joggle
    Aug. 13, 2010 1:31 p.m.

    Faith and religion is not needed to be the best that you can be! Just be the best you can be with or without it and others will pick up on it! If others want to know about your faith; they will ask!

  • snowman
    Aug. 14, 2010 10:15 p.m.

    dave: The church doesn't have a strangle hold on Utah. Most of the Utah government is LDS so they vote how they feel. We are never told how to vote. A lot of stores are closed on Sunday and not all are Mormon run stores.


    Bebyebe: The church doesn't run everything.