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Utah

Long immigration waits show why some come illegally

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  • Ok, but
    July 18, 2010 12:09 a.m.

    Oh I know, I have the same problem at red stop lights, slow traffic speeds, and of course long lines at the store. So i just run the light, speed and take my groceries out the door. No excuse.

  • Chris B
    July 18, 2010 12:09 a.m.

    There are rules and regulations for a reason. All countries have immigration rules that should be upheld. Our society simply can't support the entrace of whomever whenever they feel like coming - no country can.


    Our laws need to be upheld. We should have no mercy for criminals of any kind. If a man robs a bank to better provide for his children should we congratulate him? Neither should we embrace criminal illegal aliens. They do provide cheap labor, but they also are a financial burden that is impossible to deny. Our health insurance costs skyrocket partly due to billions of unpaid hospital bills by illegals who show up requesting services and are nowhere to be found when its time to pay the bills.

    Many are paid in cash and pay no income tax, which is the main source of revenue for our states and country to operate.

    A slow immigration process(that is needed) is a poor attempt at trying to condone criminal behavior.

    Illegal immigrants are criminals and should be viewed as such

  • ex missionary
    July 18, 2010 12:18 a.m.

    well done, thanks dnews

  • legalman
    July 18, 2010 12:32 a.m.

    The United States allows more legal immigrants every year than the rest of the world combined. Just an observation.

  • SLars
    July 18, 2010 12:56 a.m.

    Our laws are well written and compassionate. We also are also in the top 5 of all countries in the world in taking in legal immigrants. For the past 10 years we have averaged over 1 million green cards per year, with 36% going to Hispanics. Of that number, almost 400,000 go to relatives of immigrants that are already here.

    Our laws are solid, but we have a long wait because demand is up. There always be a line waiting to come here, and our policy of giving relatives priority makes the wait even longer for many groups. In a study done last year people around the world were asked which country they would like to move to. Hundreds of Millions choose the United States. Just because we are popular, and have a line, does not justify illegal immigration.

    Our lack of enforcement adds to our problems as green card quotas are set using a formula that includes unemployment and availability of workers. People here illegally deflates those numbers and cause less green cards to be issued.

  • Andrew J. Marksen
    July 18, 2010 1:03 a.m.

    All of this may be true but that still does not excuse criminal behavior. Stop me if you have heard this one before. Illegal means criminal. This position is not lacking compassion nor is it racist. This position is the truth.

  • MormonDem
    July 18, 2010 1:24 a.m.

    A timely and we'll-done article, DN. Well done. As someone said in the article, we have immigration laws being broken because we have broken immigration laws.

    Hopefully this article will inject some rationality and compassion into the debate. I'm not sure though--betwen the constant, childish, uninformed Obama-bashing and the mob mentality xenophobia of the immigration issue, Utahns seem to be drunk on hatred these days.

  • wayne
    July 18, 2010 1:30 a.m.

    the true issue is not immigration per-say its the illegal Immigration that is the issue.

    No right minded American can blame someone for trying to take care of his family.

    however, one issue is that of a flooding of the labor market with cheep labor. grate for businesses that target illegals bad news for those that try to do things legally. the over abundance of unskilled labor has driven wages down.

    a second issue is that of reparations one of the top three revenues for Mexico. the practice cost us because the money is taken out of the US economy, and it circumvents collection of US taxes

    the biggest issue is that of the apparent lack of desire to assimilate, especially among the lessor skilled. I've read studies that said that the biggest indicator of success of immigrants in the US is the willingness to learn English and live with and in the US culture. in short becoming an American.

    the there is the issue of Mexican government claiming that they have a right to reclaim there land in America.

  • JBrady
    July 18, 2010 1:51 a.m.

    There are no more frontiers in America that need to be settled. The supply of available spots is going to be less than the number that want to come here.

    And that is the best argument for legal immigration and tough enforcement. It's the only way o make it as fair as possible.

    I can understand that state Sen. Luz Robles is upset because a mans wife cannot live with him. It's to bad that before she came here illegally, she was not told that if deported, she might be restricted for 10 years from applying for citizenship.

    The squeaky wheel gets the grease, and although each country is limited to 7% of our total green cards, last year Mexico received 160,000 of the 1.3 million or over 12%. It's not broken, it's just not enforced and givers preferential treatment.

    The green card lottery was started because of the issues brought up in this story about people unable to afford the cost. It gives out 50,000 green cards each year, they are good for a spouse, and children. They are around 10% of our green card total.


  • NeilT
    July 18, 2010 2:10 a.m.

    25,000 have died in Mexico drug wars. Can anyone afford to wait 20 years in order to flee poverty, violence, and corruption. I wouldn't. I just read something interesting in Elder McConkies Mormon Doctrine. Under freedom he stated the protection of the Constitution was intended for everybody, not just U.S. citizens. Many anti-immigration people say they don't deserve any constitutional protection, not even due process. I am saddened by how ugly and racist's this debate has come. There are now self procaimed nazi's on the Arizona trying to take the law into their own hand. We are headed the same direction as Germany did in the 1930's. Blame all of four economic problems on a particular group of people.

  • jjc16
    July 18, 2010 2:30 a.m.

    @ legalman: While this is a true statement, it does neglect some of the finer points of what's happening here.

    First, there still may be unfilled demand for immigration. Perhaps 10 million want to come here per year (and there is space for 5 million of them), but we only allow 1 million per year. That's still more than everyone else, but we could let more come.

    Second, the statement says nothing about how long it takes for immigrants to come to the United States. If it takes 20 years (or 10 in the article), it may not be a practical thing for the immigrants to wait to come here legally.

    Finally, the implicit assumption in your statement (or the one you want your audience to make for you) is that, because the U.S. lets more people in than any other country every year, there is no immigration problem in the U.S. right now. I think, as this article shows, there are several problems remaining with the U.S. immigration system that need solving, including long wait times for visas.

  • On the other hand
    July 18, 2010 3:31 a.m.

    @legalman, can you give us a source for that statistic?

  • Euroskeptic
    July 18, 2010 4:27 a.m.

    @ OK, but - and while you're at that stop light, do you watch your children starve? While you're waiting in traffic, do you fear for your safety and the safety of those dearest to you? While you're waiting in line at the grocery store do you watch your children grow up with no hope of improving their lives?

    I'm glad you can compare your petty, daily annoyances with peoples' fight to provide a better future for their families. Were we all so lucky!

  • VickieB
    July 18, 2010 4:35 a.m.

    Having relatives that come here legally, I know that it's a long process. In the 1890's my ancestors from Ireland waited 9 years during the potato famine. Part of my in laws came from Mexico, it took then several years in the 60's. Much of the wait comes from what is called chain migration, as relatives are given preferred treatment.

    If you want to shorten the line, you could stop people from bringing relatives. You and I know that's not going to work, nor would it be right.

    We have a lot of illegal immigration because of the 1986 amnesty. Ethnic groups recruited people using it as a selling point. Many lawyers switch to immigration lawyers. It became a profitable field. There are dozens of people here illegally that use to live in the city my family members came from, in Mexico. They came here with the intention of getting amnesty and living here while waiting for it come. The recession has hit many of them hard, barely holding on for Obama to fulfill his promise. We can't continue this way.

  • Kaye Possa
    July 18, 2010 5:18 a.m.

    You hit it on the head.
    Why is this almost never mentioned in the civil debate? --- the red-tape, the nonsensical displays of power/authority by many Immigration offices give another motivation (excuse) for some of the illegals.

  • VA Saint
    July 18, 2010 6:10 a.m.

    I agree with Chris. Rules and regulations are here for a reason, and we need them even more so now. My grandparents waited a long time, in line, to come here the right way. LEGALLY. There is no excuse for someone to come here illegally. They are breaking our laws, and we are (supposedly) guided by the Rule of Law.

  • Dektol
    July 18, 2010 6:34 a.m.

    You are making excuses for criminals. Whats next, excusing those who rob 7-11's?

  • J. Adams
    July 18, 2010 6:39 a.m.

    As a U.S. citizen I have waited 61 years to obtain some of the things I want. Guess what? I'm still waiting. Congratulations to Ruth who made hard choices and came to America legally.

  • Another Perspective
    July 18, 2010 7:01 a.m.

    Virtually every Utahn who drives on the freeways speeds on the freeway because they don't like to wait to get to where they are going.

    People who didn't like waiting for the government to act to do what they think was best, so they illegally made of a list of people and distributed it. Not only that, their brothers and sisters in the cause who said they would never be for amnesty are not calling for amnesty.

    "Just an observation"

  • tq2
    July 18, 2010 7:05 a.m.

    You make it sound like coming to the United STates is a right that everyone in the world has. If it takes too long, then too bad, don't come. But coming illegally makes it ok? They come here because we stupidly give them more free benefits as an illegal, than they can ever get from Mexico. Let's not glorify these people, they are here illegally, period. They should have no rights at all. And there reason Americans are so angry about this right now is because our taxes are providing them this great life. This whole issue is entirely upside down.

  • DougS
    July 18, 2010 7:17 a.m.

    As to the article begging the question of a long wait for legal immigration, I have often wondered why myself. What procedures can take a year or more to satisfy? Who, and why, are permissions to come to this country granted ?
    It has to be some arcane bureaucratic mishmash that prevents a smooth handling of applications.

  • Third try screen name
    July 18, 2010 7:20 a.m.

    I scoured the article and found it lacking in hard, background data.
    In 2009 we issued 1,130,818 green cards, despite our lousy economy.
    Over the last decade we have issued 10,299,430, so a MILLION visas a year is typical.
    Just how many do you do-gooders think is the right number?
    A Gallup poll taken around the world puts the number of people who WANT to come here at 160 million. Shall we take them all?

  • trueamerican
    July 18, 2010 7:21 a.m.

    The article mentions that illegals say it doesn't work for poor people to immigrate here. Well, no other country in the world wants the poor. What do they have to add to the nation? They generally have no education and are often a burden on the social system. What other nation in the world wants the uneducated poor? We often have to take them due to backdoor deals made by the President/UN. I can't think of any nation that will give them added immigration points for being poor. The entire world thinks America is the only decent nation for immigration. True. We are the only country that gives something for nothing. Really, it is up to those poor people in other nations to make a stand in their own countries and actually pull it out of the "mire". They refuse to do it, though. Easier to come here illegally. The problem in these nations is that once an idealist, and would be builder, gets to the top they love the corruption and power. It becomes the same old regime in charge again. What does it become? Look at East LA.

  • JBrady
    July 18, 2010 7:30 a.m.

    Last night I did not notice the graphic's they tell part of the story. There are four countries oversubscribed on green cards. That means owe are unable to issue enough green cards each year to relatives of citizens and legal immigrants, to fill demand. My first thought, if there are only four countries that we cannot fill demand, we are doing pretty good. (I checked, it's just four countries, Mexico, India, China and Philippines).

    China and India are easy to understand their sheer population would create a big demand. Their wait of several years is tolerable.

    The Philippines use to be a US territory, and people came and went as they wished, so the large number that came here and stayed create a backlog of many years. (the number still seems unreasonable high, when compared to number of total green cards given to Mexico).

    The large Hispanic population of the US contributes to their wait. It would seem they create their own wait, as their demand is higher.

  • OJF64
    July 18, 2010 7:32 a.m.

    Im sorry that for some the process is so long but currently that is the way its but what gets my blood pressure up is the fact that many of those that are here legally now even after 10 + plus years stil refuse to speak a lick of english and they have the attidue that I should learn their language. Part of the immigration process should have a requirement that they learn english before being approved. My parents and my grandparents are immigrants and they ALL learned english!

  • jim l
    July 18, 2010 7:34 a.m.

    The media again just trying to paint a picture. Or find and excuse for the illegal immigrants disregard of the law.

  • Emophiliac
    July 18, 2010 7:51 a.m.

    In other words, everyone else in the World believes they are entitled to come to the US, to live and work. Seems like we should be the ones doing the picking and choosing.

    And, I think this is the first report I've seen where someone on the list indicated they were actually illegal. Imagine that!

  • Say What?
    July 18, 2010 7:54 a.m.

    re Chris B

    "Illegal immigrants are criminals and should be viewed as such"
    ***

    Chris, are you aware that the law against coming into the US illegally is a civil violation, not a criminal one?

    This being the case, these people are not criminals unless they also happen to commit a criminal act.

  • Viva la Migra
    July 18, 2010 8:19 a.m.

    Our country has every right to establish controls and prioritize what type of immigrant is given the privilege to come here. This is just another attempt by the local media to create sympathy for the "poor illegals". The reporters certainly cherry picked the examples which would produce sympathy. The could have just as easily profiled illegals which came here knowing they could never had legally come due to a communicable disease or criminal record.

    With a Depression-like downturn and soaring deficits, do we really need millions of new unemployable people who will require welfare?

  • Ricardo Carvalho
    July 18, 2010 8:20 a.m.

    It is important to be both civil and accurate when debating such issues. To this end, I would encourage 12:32 poster, legalman, to provide a source for his assertion. A quick search of wikipedia suggests that the assertion is not accurate.

  • Swissmiss
    July 18, 2010 8:21 a.m.

    I can summon up some sympathy. But just how many more people can the citizens of the U.S. be expected to permit in here?

    Why do WE have to be expected to save the world - and all their children and aunts and uncles and cousins?

    Try driving around the poorer areas of your own town. Shouldn't we be helping our own FIRST???

  • Blondie2
    July 18, 2010 8:26 a.m.

    O.K., I understand. I'm going to have a wait before I earn enough money to pay my bills, so I'll just forego my tax responsibility, my wait in the movie line..............butting in to the head of the line or sneaking in the back door. Poor boys...........

  • Gregory Johnson
    July 18, 2010 8:40 a.m.

    Itakes too long to do things the legal way so we will break the law and do it illegally. I guess that is the Wall Street attitude as well. It takes to long to make money the legal way so we will do it illegally and destroy the world economy in the process.

  • DN Subscriber
    July 18, 2010 8:49 a.m.

    There are long waits at the DMV office for a driver license or license plates. Does that mean it is okay for me to just not bother getting those because it is inconvenient?

    What part of "obey the law" is so hard to understand?

    Illegal is illegal and must not be tolerated. And especially not rewarded by any sort of "amnesty" under any name.

  • Emophiliac
    July 18, 2010 8:59 a.m.

    Of course, the US could let 10 million or more immigrate each year. But, who says that we should? There is already significant unemployment in our country with the 12 million or more illegals already here. Who says we could absorb more legal immigrants, unless we make room by getting rid of the illegals that are already here?

    I definitely think the US should be the one deciding who and how many enter our country, rather than leaving it to the rest of the World to make that decision. I'm pretty sure we can't absorb the 2 or 3 billion that would love to be here.

  • Joey
    July 18, 2010 9:01 a.m.

    There is an easy cure.

    STOP IMMIGRATION!!

    We have enough monetary problems plus others.

    The whole world would like to come here.

    Consider...they might not vote for you in the future.

    That is, unless you learn to speak Spanish.

  • wjalden
    July 18, 2010 9:06 a.m.

    We have the right (and the need) to decide how many new Americans we can reasonably accept each year. The current rate (which the article, of course, doesn't bother to mention) is about 1.2 million people, including 1.16 million people in 2008.

    In historic terms this is high. It's about twice what our legal rates were in the 80s and about 3-4 times what they were in the 70s. The United States is now home to nearly 40 millions immigrants.

    So long as America is a desireable country to live in (and shouldn't we always want it to be so?), and so long as much of the rest of the world is undesireable, there will be a line longer than our willingness or ability to accept new residents. There is no excuse for cutting that line.

  • samhill
    July 18, 2010 9:10 a.m.

    I can personally attest to the problems mentioned here.

    I have a friend from Japan who tried for almost 20 years and spent I don't know how many thousands of dollars to deal with the INS in his attempt to simply get a legal right to work in the U.S. as a dental ceramist; an occupation that was listed among those eligible for such work visas. I spent countless hours and trying to help him in his interactions with the INS and found them to be uniformly unresponsive and/or completely inept.

    It was this experience that convinced me that our government has become nothing more than a self-perpetuating job source for vast numbers of people who prize process over principle and job security over effectiveness. A quagmire of paper-shuffling apparatchiks who could not care less about actually performing the function for which their agency is, ostensibly, formed.

    It is not only the INS (or its current equivalent) that needs comprehensive reform, IT'S THE ENTIRE GOVERNMENT!!!

  • wjalden
    July 18, 2010 9:12 a.m.

    *** "Why is this almost never mentioned in the civil debate? --- the red-tape, the nonsensical displays of power/authority by many Immigration offices give another motivation (excuse) for some of the illegals." ***

    Actually the bureaucrats, rather than abuse their authority, are far more likely to allow in people who shouldn't be here. Issuing a visa to someone who shouldn't be allowed takes a few seconds. Rejecting a visa can result in hours of paperwork, appeals, calls from congressmen, and heaven-only-knows what else. All the incentives are to not to do their jobs guarding the doors to this country.

  • dumbo123
    July 18, 2010 9:13 a.m.

    QUESTION; If illegal immigration is so good for the economy then why is California and it's municipalities suffering so much more economic turmoil than most other states? Shouldn't they be doing well with the largest illegal immigrant and immigrant population of any state? Illegal immigrants are everywhere? ANSWER; Illegal immigration is costing the state tens of billions or more every year. When things finally get bad enough in California and they will soon, they’ll hang the illegal immigrants out to dry. Idealism is all fun and games until the game is finally up. Then everyone starts acting like adults again. Which way will Utah act?

  • ComSen1
    July 18, 2010 9:27 a.m.

    Reagan's Amnesty Program legalized three million illegals. Many millions more have come with the hope of another amnesty program.

    I'm not against anyone who wants to come here and work. I'm even willing to trade other countries 2-1 for the people we have here who WON'T work. But we don't have limitless jobs. We don't have limitless resources. We don't have limitless wealth.

    WE CAN'T SOLVE THE WORLD'S PROBLEMS BY OURSELVES, and there is rampant corruption EVERYWHERE, even at the precious UN. Our government gives away tons foreign aid - almost $40 BILLION through USAID in 2009. The US gives 25% of all international aid EVERY YEAR.

    Only 49% of US workers paid Federal Income Tax last year. How can we afford to increase the population of non-taxpayers who receive tax money? Allowing everyone who desires it to enter our country would FURTHER bankrupt us.

    What's the solution? I'm interested in hearing common sense ideas, even if the government isn't. THINK about the consequences, and remember, for every action there may be an equal but opposite reaction.

  • Hurryin' Hoosier
    July 18, 2010 9:30 a.m.

    @MormonDem Most people are quite simply tired of inaction on the part of our vote-pandering politicians. It will probably take another 9/11 type incident to get the polician's attention; but even then true immigration laws enforcement will not come easily or quickly. Too many politicians are their own special interest group for re-election and a career in politics.

    Another good reason for term limits; thus reducing incentive for politicians to curry favor for votes at the expense of law enforcement.

  • The Sensible Middle
    July 18, 2010 9:47 a.m.

    re Third try screen name | 7:20 a.m. July 18, 2010

    --------------

    The people from Mexico though are by blood, natives of this land. Historically they have gone back and forth across what is now the southern border before Columbus arrived.

    Our ansestors are interlopers into this land. They had it first.

    Goodness knows we have taken much land away from the natives unjustly, and against our own treaties that we made with them. Also in war, we took away land that was theirs in the Mexican wars. You know it is wrong for children to claim what their parents have taken unjustly, therefore we do owe these people more than a little deference.

    No we can't take in the entire world, but given who these people are and our history with them, it is proper that we give these people priority in these matters.

    You act as if the white people of America have clear title to this land. Given history, this simply isn't the case and its time you started acting as if you are aware of this. (You did take history in school didn't you)?

  • Deportation Glitch Lady
    July 18, 2010 9:50 a.m.

    Great article. There are those who turn illegal while waiting in the long line. There are those who are branded illegal for unknown reasons. There are those who continually pay lawyers to stay and live in courtrooms for over 40 years.

    During tribal conflicts in my country, I ran into someone's home and hid under the bed. So glad they did not call it a break in. But even if they did they had already made me supper and the statute of limitations had expired on the reporting for a break in. What does this have to do with illegals?

    It is in my view the same question of people running away from or towards something. They have sought refuge from whatever was ailing them. Now it is the time administer the Balm of Gilead and Utah has enough for decades.

  • SJordan
    July 18, 2010 9:50 a.m.

    Our college-age son and many of his friends drive to Mexico twice a year, at their own expense, and stay a week, at their own expense, to help build livable homes for locals who want help.
    It gives the residents there a reason to stay, and not jump the border (where our son-in-law is part of the border patrol.)
    The answer to a human problem is a human, more than political, solution.
    A lot of politicians have been and will be elected on promises to do or not do this or that, without actually improving the situation.

  • crackerjack
    July 18, 2010 9:54 a.m.

    My grandfather waited 8 and 1/2 years after his family came because of the quotas on immigration... and within 10 months of arriving spoke better English than most of the immigrants from south of the border after 10 years... ENFORCE THE LAW! SECURE the border...kick out the claim jumpers and band wagoners...We need to require an oath of allegiance for all who enter as well. End dual citizenship... You are American or something else but not both.

  • Dakota
    July 18, 2010 10:00 a.m.

    The United States can only hold so many people without destroying the quality of life for everyone. If the US would enforce our immigration laws and remove illegals and stop extending the "Temporary Protected Status" for Latin American Countries as a means of defacto amnesty, there would be more room to bring in those that are waiting in line to come here legally.

  • DocSarvis
    July 18, 2010 10:03 a.m.

    The US government expects it's citizens to be good little girls and boys and do what they're told. However, they allow illegal immigrants to come ILLEGALLY into this country, steal identification, falsify social security numbers, work off the books, live off the system. Get free education, free or subsidized health care, free or subsidized food, all at legal citizen expense. Those in favor of illegal immigration are oh so ready to use the racism card, while supporting what is basically slave labor so they can have their cheap food, houses painted, homes cleaned, lawns mowed, cars washed, landscaping done, at an artificially low rate which makes it hard for legal citizens to make a living wage. They basically support the exploitation of a low socioeconomic class for their own greed while claiming to be compassionate. Doesn't fly. Not to mention that the majority of illegal immigrants send a large part of their under the table earnings back to Mexico, which adds another drain to the economy.

  • Hellooo
    July 18, 2010 10:03 a.m.

    There is no right to immigrate to the USA, or to any other country. In an ideal world there may be a desire for such a situation, but every country has laws to protect its defined territory, sans this it is not a nation. So, 18 years,21 years, may in some cases be a lifetime. Those that wait many years, endure the struggle, and then are allowed to come here. Are most often, very, very good citizens. And, in my experience some of the most ardent supporters of strict enforcement of obeying the law, including immigration law. That being stated, there could be much done to improve the system. The paperwork is ridiculous, duplicated multiple times, and very capricious. In my experience, the agents are arrogant, rude, and is one case just out and out mean.

  • ex missionary
    July 18, 2010 10:09 a.m.

    Over the years I've met thousands of hispanic immigrants. I've yet to meet even one who doesn't know or isn't working to learn English. They have strong economic incentives to do so. That being said even those that know English don't necessarily chose to speak it 100% of the time. It is much more natural to speak their mother tongue when with a group of other speakers of the same language. This does not mean they are refusing to learn or speak English.

  • optimist
    July 18, 2010 10:11 a.m.

    After reading all the post above, it still amazes me how so many people among us, pick and choose the scriptures that they choose to follow and those they choose to ignore or offer reasons why they don't apply. Tollarence comes to mind. Forgiveness;
    We are all brothers and sisters; Blessed are the poor; etc. A-men.

  • Geneina
    July 18, 2010 11:19 a.m.

    Another Perspective | 7:01 a.m. July 18, 2010 writes that "people who didn't like waiting for the government to act to do what they think was best, so they illegally made of a list of people and distributed it. This was roundly condemned by people on both side of the immigration debate."

    However, the people and groups who were the most outspoken in their criticism of the release of the list still support illegal immigration and the massive document fraud (felony), perjury on I-9 forms (felony) and identity theft (felony) that accompanies it.

    Both sides of the immigration debate have a responsibility to follow the law, not to do what they think is best.

    If the advocates for illegal aliens such as the Deseret News disagree with current laws, then change them but don’t justify the massive violation of laws and support illegal aliens who are committing multiple job related felonies by running a story titled: "Long immigration waits show why some come illegally."

  • shamrock
    July 18, 2010 11:29 a.m.

    Insightful article. Thanks for publishing it.

  • GoodGuyGary
    July 18, 2010 11:35 a.m.

    I agree with trueamerican @7:21 am. No country wants poor and low educated immigrants. Therefore, as an international student, I chose to go to BYU, got an engineering degree and hoped to get a greencard. It still took me more about 10 years after I graduated to get the greencard, and during that time, I paid tax and did evrything legally in this country. I now got another master degree, making 6 figure salary, and pay tax. I think I am the kind of immigrants that the country needed. After all, this country is established by a bunch of immigrants, who had the ability to contribute.

  • cjb
    July 18, 2010 11:50 a.m.

    People don't have to look any further than what these Utah employees did to see why the Arizona law is so wrong.

    The state employees in order til "fufill a greater good" were willing not only to break the law, but to put hispanics at risk who they had no solid evidence they were even illegal. Now these people are not at risk of identity theft for the rest of their life because their social secureity numbers were released to so many people.

    Can anyone doubt that in Arizona there will be policemen who will do likewise? Trample on the rights of Americans who look hispanic in order to ensure that they catch all possible illegal aliens.

    After all if Arizona trusted their own employeses to obey the law in this matter, they would not have put a provisioin into thier law to allow people to sue departments who don't abide by this law.

    If they can't trust their own departments to obey the law because it is the law, then who do they say with so much confidence that policemen will obey this law and not profile people?

  • wrz
    July 18, 2010 11:51 a.m.

    @MormonDem 1:24 a.m.:

    "As someone said in the article, we have immigration laws being broken because we have broken immigration laws."

    That's a bunch of hooey. There is absolutely nothing wrong with our immigration laws. Essentially the laws say, if you wish entry into this country, get permission. And leave when permission runs out. It's not rocket science.

    The reason many say we have broken immigration laws is because they wish the laws allowed unlimited immigration to all who wish to come. They don't want to follow our laws. They want to make our laws.

  • wrz
    July 18, 2010 12:02 p.m.

    @JBrady 1:51 a.m.:

    "There are no more frontiers in America that need to be settled. The supply of available spots is going to be less than the number that want to come here."

    You got that right, Brady. View YouTube's "Immigration Gumballs" for more evidence.

  • Geneina
    July 18, 2010 12:10 p.m.

    "Say What? says: Chris, are you aware that the law against coming into the US illegally is a civil violation, not a criminal one? This being the case, these people are not criminals unless they also happen to commit a criminal act. "

    Unfortunately, the vast majority of illegal aliens are committing felonies.

    Almost immediately upon illegally entering the U.S. or overstaying their visas, people unlawfully in the U.S. fraudulently obtain Social Security numbers. That is a felony.

    Then they use those numbers to get jobs and enter them on their I-9 forms — that is perjury and another felony.

    Finally, there is a 50-50 chance that the Social Security numbers they are using belong to someone else. If they do, that is identity fraud. Another felony. (Source: KSL News)

    So illegal aliens commit up to three felonies just to get a job. (Source: CIS — Identity Theft Report)

    How widespread is this? The Social Security Administration estimates that 75% of illegal aliens use fraudulent Social Security numbers so that means that 75% of illegal aliens are committing a major felony. (Source: SSA as reported in the New York Times).

  • wrz
    July 18, 2010 12:11 p.m.

    @NeilT 2:10 a.m.:

    "I just read something interesting in Elder McConkies Mormon Doctrine. Under freedom he stated the protection of the Constitution was intended for everybody, not just U.S. citizens."

    On careful analysis on can see that McConkie made several mistakes, including this one, in his book.

    "There are now self proclaimed nazi's on the Arizona trying to take the law into their own hand."

    These are plants put there by the pro-illegal immigrant cause. Standard practice for liberals.

  • Another Perspective
    July 18, 2010 12:12 p.m.

    re Geneina | 11:19 a.m. July 18, 2010

    Some people who are anti immigrant do condem the release of this list, but many don't.

    I saw a post where the person said, this was okay because it was for a "higher good".

    I've seen posts saying these people deserve amnesty in the form of being allowed to get off by whistle blower rules, even though they released peoples names who are citizens. Yet these same people don't want any kind of amnesty for the illegal immigrants. which really wouldn't be amnesty because they would pay a fine.

    I have read these comments on posts that happened a few days ago. Now some of these people may be backing off because they realize how hypocritical these posts make them look.

  • Vanessa62
    July 18, 2010 12:45 p.m.

    An astonishing number of commentors seem to be completely missing the point of the article. The immigration system is broken. Has been for a long time. Immigration regulations are archaic and no longer serve the best interests of this country.

    Consider that the majority of illegals are desperate enough to leave everything and everyone they love behind to live for years in exile.

    They do it for the most human of reasons: a chance of a better life for themselves and their children.

    Hardly the equivalent of waiting 15 minutes in a crowded supermarket to pay for a bag of potato chips.

    How many of those smug, sanctimonious posters would be willing to make similar sacrifices for THEIR families, I wonder?

    *And on a side note: Check out how many Utah drivers obey the posted speed limits. Lawbreaking, anyone? Pot. Kettle.*

    Furthermore - in your rush to condemn human beings for daring to risk everything for a dream of a better life, you're forgetting something:

    If illegals couldn't find work, they wouldn't come here. If employers didn't hire them, they wouldn't remain here. So why no words of condemnation for employers?

    Oh, yeah. They're white.

  • Vanessa62
    July 18, 2010 12:53 p.m.

    TO: wrz | 11:51 a.m. July 18, 2010

    Bunch of hooey? When did YOU go through the immigration process?

    I'm willing to bet... NEVER.

    Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes.

  • Vanessa62
    July 18, 2010 12:59 p.m.

    To: wjalden | 9:12 a.m. July 18, 2010

    "Actually the bureaucrats, rather than abuse their authority, are far more likely to allow in people who shouldn't be here. Issuing a visa to someone who shouldn't be allowed takes a few seconds. Rejecting a visa can result in hours of paperwork, appeals, calls from congressmen, and heaven-only-knows what else. All the incentives are to not to do their jobs guarding the doors to this country."

    Clearly, YOU have never spent years doing the document do-si-do with INS bureaucrats. Otherwise, you would have witnessed The Peter Principle raised to to a whole new level. Trust me - the INS LOVES filling out forms. Job security.

  • Vanessa62
    July 18, 2010 1:12 p.m.

    To: Geneina | 11:19 a.m. July 18, 2010

    Deseret News produced a neutrally-biased, well-written article on an emotionally charged issue.

    Just because they didn't write a lopsided opinion piece slanted to fit your views doesn't mean they advocate illegal immigration, lawbreaking, or anything else you slandered them with.

    It's refreshing to read something in Utah that just presents the facts, and lets the reader decide what to think.

    There are always two sides to every story. The immigration debate is not the cut and dried, over-simplified issue you obviously believe it to be.

    As for all those 'crimes' that illegals are commiting - I notice you didn't say a word about the crimes being commited by hteir employers. 99% of whom know they're hiring illegal workers.

    Got something to say about persecuting and prosecuting them?

  • formerUT
    July 18, 2010 1:25 p.m.

    Yep--this yet again PROVES the biggest prejudice people have against others: This over-arching assumption that being "poor" means that one is lazy and a drain on society.

    The MAJORITY of immigrants who first populated THIS country WERE INCREDIBLY POOR!!!! I cannot and WILL not fault ANY person for coming to this country, legally or not, who wanted to try to better their lives--especially as I've seen SOME of what they were living with in their "home" countries.

    To quote the plaque on our Statue of Liberty "Give us your poor, your teaming masses, YEARNING to be FREE". It is perpetually stupid for rich US citizens to be so prejudiced towards those who want to come here because they're "poor". It is those whom are "poor" who pick your oranges, your onions, your potatoes--you rich LAZY people! THEY are the ones who clean YOUR toilets, cook YOUR hamburgers, SLAVE for YOUR behalf.

    The day our immigration policy and laws in this country are EQUAL and FAIR--based upon a person's income--rather than discriminating against them for it--THAT will be the day when we can put all this illegality behind us!

  • Another Perspective
    July 18, 2010 1:33 p.m.

    One of the reasons America is a great land is that we are a land of immigrants and typically immigrants are among the best of the people of the country they come from.

    These are the people with energy, the people with dreams, people willing to take risks.

    So long as immigrants continue to want to come here we will have that much of an advantage.

  • Brother Paul
    July 18, 2010 1:44 p.m.

    Amen to Vanessa62!!!

    Joe South a singer/songwriter of the late 1960's
    said well in music and lyric:

    Walk A Mile in My Shoes. Walk A Mile in My Shoes. Before you Criticise, Accuse, and Abuse, Walk A Mile in My Shoes!!

    Elvis Presley also sang that song in his concerts
    and some of his later albums.

    Jesus said: Judge Not, that Ye.....

    You all know the rest.

    Jesus loved ALL of God's Children....

  • answersrez_obeytheylaw
    July 18, 2010 1:57 p.m.

    The LDS Church needs to be less wishy washy and non-commital with its public statements. They teach us to obey the laws of the land. We are not supposed to do this when it is convenient.
    It is a long time coming for local police to be able to haul in illegal immigrants for every nation who break our laws and take them to INS and it is time for INS to get more man power to start deporting those here illegally caught breaking laws of the land. There are congregations of LDS church members in this nation here illegally and they know it is wrong. It is understood they have come to make a better life but breaking the law of this land to do this does not make it correct.Too many illegals hanging around college campuses trying to latch on to Americans for the fast track to green cards.Students who pay tuition to get a higher education should be protected from preditors by having the school permit only students enter their school activities. I am for reform of the fast track of having a baby here gets a person status here too, no more

  • attentive
    July 18, 2010 2:14 p.m.

    I've written this before and I'll try to get it posted again: Canada will only accept a person as a new citizen if they are between the ages of 18 and 54, are employed, or have a net worth of $800,000.00. Eight hundred thousand dollars. If it weren't for the strict requirements, I'd move to Canada, but they would deport me. Maybe I should try to sneak across the border somewhere from Idaho and see if the Canadian government would have pity on me and give me housing, education, healthcare, and food stamps. What a laugh, huh?

  • Madden
    July 18, 2010 2:29 p.m.

    The headline explains it exactly...legal immigration is broken, which is why normally "good" people turn to the illegal variety.

  • wrz
    July 18, 2010 2:34 p.m.

    @Another Perspective 12:12 p.m.:

    "...which really wouldn't be amnesty because they would pay a fine."

    Amnesty is where illegals are not kicked out but are allowed to stay in the US whether they get citizenship or not. Most illegals here don't want citizenship. Keep that in mind. They just want jobs in the US where pay far exceeds what they could make in their home countries. Even staying here while awaiting a visa or citizenship is amnesty.

  • ?
    July 18, 2010 2:36 p.m.

    Random thought: What if we got rid of the borders, all of North, Central and South America combined and became simply one America?

  • dansimp
    July 18, 2010 2:37 p.m.

    To all those who champion 'support the law no matter what'. Bear in mind, it was illegal to harbor Jews in Europe during WWII. It was also legal to kill Mormons in Missouri. It was legal to own slaves. It was illegal for white and black to marry. It was legal to force Japanese into internment camps. Law and right are not always the same. Especially in the U.S. we have a system set up to change bad or immoral laws. Being the law doesn't make something right. We should fight to change laws that are wrong. Hopefully, I will live to see this one become right.

    As has been said before, being here undocumented is not a crime, quit calling them criminals.

    For the person who wanted to say Elder McConkie was wrong...if you believe the Doctrine and Covenants is true, then you believe the Constitution is for 'all flesh'. D&C 101:77.

  • spudhead
    July 18, 2010 2:45 p.m.

    "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"
    I'm sure all of you all comply with every law: You always pay use tax on anything you buy online that isn't taxed. None of your children are illegally downloading music from Limewire or Kazaa for their ipod's. You never speed or break traffic laws. Your tint isn't too dark on your windows and you don't Jaywalk.
    Many of our illegal immigrant brothers and sisters are here working hard doing the jobs that you and I simple won't do. Get to know a few of them. For the most part they are just like you and me. Trying to make a better life for their families not trying to take advantage of us.

  • wrz
    July 18, 2010 2:53 p.m.

    @Vanessa62 12:45 p.m.:

    "The immigration system is broken."

    Not so. Immigration system laws are healthy and well. What is broken is enforcement. And why is enforcement broken? Because politicians (who run the government) look to the Hispanic vote to keep them in office. And right now, Hispanics are the people flooding across our borders who politicians wish to woo and court.

    "If illegals couldn't find work, they wouldn't come here. If employers didn't hire them, they wouldn't remain here. So why no words of condemnation for employers?"

    And who is responsible for running herd on employers who hire illegals? The US government. And why won't the government enforce the laws? See answer above.

  • wrz
    July 18, 2010 2:56 p.m.

    @Vanessa62 12:45 p.m.:

    "The immigration system is broken."

    Not so. Immigration system laws are healthy and well. What is broken is enforcement. And why is enforcement broken? Because politicians (who run the government) look to the Hispanic vote to keep them in office. And right now, Hispanics are the people flooding across our borders who politicians wish to woo and court.

    "If illegals couldn't find work, they wouldn't come here. If employers didn't hire them, they wouldn't remain here. So why no words of condemnation for employers?"

    And who is responsible for running herd on employers who hire illegals? The US government. And why won't the government enforce the laws? See answer above.

  • Hunt
    July 18, 2010 3:00 p.m.

    This constant pro illegal immigration drumming by the dnews is starting to get tiresome. What has happened to balanced reporting?

  • ComSen1
    July 18, 2010 3:03 p.m.

    @ Sen-Mid 9:47 - A little more history for you:

    Mexican-American War, 1846-48

    There were cross-border incursions by the Mexicans into US Territory - property ceded by Mexico following the war for Texas' independence, after which the Mexican government "officially" said they would not honor and beyond. The US was attacked by the Mexican Army. US forces counter-attacked and invaded Mexico. US forces routed the Mexican forces on all fronts, and occupied Mexico City.

    Following the war, however, the United States government

    - wait for it -

    PAID Mexico for the additional territory, (including AZ and CA) just like they had offered to do before Mexico invaded. The land is ours, bought and paid for. It was not "stolen."

    So here's a question considering we no longer live in "colonial" times. Should the English seek reparations from the Normans? The Saxons? Maybe the Romans! Maybe the Spanish should seek them from the Moors. The Chinese from Mongolia.

    Even God would only punish the children to the third of fourth generation of those who hate him (Ex20). How many generations are the American people to be held responsible for the supposed "sins of our fathers?"

  • Hunt
    July 18, 2010 3:23 p.m.

    @Venessa

    If the dnews was trying to be neutral we would see stories about those who are legal citizens being effected negatively by illegals. We would see stats that show the impact illegals have on our states welfare system, healthcare system and economy in general. I understand that this is a multi-part series. It will be interesting to see if any of this is addressed.

  • Not_Scared
    July 18, 2010 3:24 p.m.

    "There are rules and regulations for a reason. Illegal means criminal." Unless you're a state worker who breaks the law making a list of 1300 people with Hispanic names or Mike Noel.

    "Driver compliance with speed limits is poor. On average, 7 out of 10 motorists exceeded the posted speed in urban areas. Compliance ranged from 3 to 99 percent. Compliance tended to be worse on low-speed roads, better on roads with prima facie limits, or where the speed limit was based on an engineering study. Better does not mean good compliance; less than 10 percent on [sic] the sites had more than 50-percent obedience with the posted speed."

    "12.8 million Americans, about 6 percent of the household population aged twelve and older, use illegal drugs on a current basis."

    We are a nation of law.

  • sunnymorsap
    July 18, 2010 3:27 p.m.

    All those people that support the inhumane deportation of illegals versus a compassionate fining and requirements to be done in order to stay here...I hope you all realize why they have to come here illegally. Come on you're going to tell me that you're going to pay the equivalent of $15,000 USD for you're passport and then on top of that, you're going to wait 20 yrs? What if you had a sick child, and could only find work altering or making clothing when you had orders for it...there's no way anyone would ever save enough money to pay for their papers and still be able to survive. All you people wanting them all gone only want them to die because that's what you're sending them back too. Applying for a visa can add up to what DN states in this article, but that's in USD...in Mexico 200 pesos is about 18 dollars...do the math people...think about what you're asking these people to do. Have a heart.

  • ComSen1
    July 18, 2010 3:43 p.m.

    Does anyone think maybe it takes so long for people to get their paperwork processed because there are far more applications annually than can possibly be approved if we are to have sustainable growth?

    If we let in 10,000,000 every year, how long will it be before our country is completely overpopulated, our resources depleted, and we have annual inflation rates of 15-20%? What do you think would happen to the crime and poverty rates then? New York would look like Mumbai. LA would continue the transition to becoming Mexico City.

    CHOICES HAVE TO BE MADE for the long-term good of our country. Those that don't get in this year will have to wait until the next, or the next.

    Most who are in favor of general amnesty have probably never made a business decision beyond what clothes to wear. We can't help ANYONE if our country is destroyed, which it would be, by the economic impact of mass amnesty and open borders.

  • cjb
    July 18, 2010 3:47 p.m.

    re ComSem 1

    If someone refuses to sell you something and then you force the sale by use of arms, this is a sale under duress and its validity is questionable at best.

    Due to the way the land was gotten, we don't have clear title. It isn't ours in the same sense that it would have been had it been gotten on the up and up.

    No amount of rationalization will white wash this fact away.

    Americans who went into Texas, had to get permission first, and condition of this permission was that they pledge to obey Mexican law. They went back on their pledge and revolted. This didn't make that land theirs. Reason being, when you take something that doesn't belong to you, the title doesn't transfer.

    If you read historical accounts, Americans at the time were under no illusion that this wasn't a land grab. SeeHenry David Thoreau's comments about the issue at the time. No one argued with him that he was wrong, but right /wrong was a non issue they didn't care.

    Not only with Mexico, the same thing happened with the Indians.

  • Geneina
    July 18, 2010 3:48 p.m.

    Vanessa62 | 1:12 p.m. July 18, 2010 writes:
    I notice you didn't say a word about the crimes being committed by their employers. 99% of whom know they're hiring illegal workers. Got something to say about persecuting and prosecuting them?"

    Well, I wouldn't persecute them but I would certainly prosecute them and require them to uphold all state and federal laws including SB251 which mandates the use of a status verification system.

    If everyone would follow President Monson's advice then the problem would largely solve itself.

    President Monson: “Let us not overlook obedience to the laws of the land. They do not restrict our conduct so much as they guarantee our freedom, provide us protection, and safeguard all that is dear to us.

    In our time, when otherwise honorable men bend the law, twist the law, and wink at violations of the law, when crime goes unpunished, legally imposed sentences go unserved, and irresponsible and illegal conduct soars beyond previously recorded heights, there is a very real need to return to the basic justice that the laws provide when honest men sustain them.” Ensign 1988


  • ComSen1
    July 18, 2010 3:49 p.m.

    Despite popular myth, our country has not been able to fully support its immigrants since the mid-1800s, except during times of war.

    When the cities got too crowded, and jobs were too scarce, the frontier opened up for pioneering. We've run out of land to pioneer unless millions of people are willing to move to Alaska. A country has to produce or it will stagnate.

    Most arable land is already being used. What is left to produce and where? We can't continue to be a nation of consumers, and we aren't producing enough to sustain our current population which is why we have such huge trade deficits. If our nation is borrowing Billion$$$ every month to sustain our current population, how can it afford to add more members for whom it will have to borrow money to pay for all the social services, etc?

    I said it hours ago. I'm still waiting for some common sense answers.

  • Geneina
    July 18, 2010 4:06 p.m.

    Some posts seem to say that it is ok for people to violate U.S. immigration laws in order to better their lives.

    I would guess that many people living under a ruthless, communist government in East Germany felt the same way. However, President Monson consistently advised them to follow the laws of the land.

    Writing in the June 2007 Liahona, President Monson says: “For many years as a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, I had responsibility for East Germany, also known as the German Democratic Republic. In this assignment, my knowledge of the Articles of Faith was most helpful. On each of my visits throughout the 20 years I supervised this area, I always reminded our members in that area of the twelfth article of faith: “We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.”

    According to President Monson East German leaders told him: “Elder Monson, we’ve watched you for 20 years, and we’ve learned we can trust you and your Church because you and your Church teach your members to obey the laws of the land.”

  • Say What?
    July 18, 2010 4:22 p.m.

    re Geneina | 4:06 p.m. July 18, 2010

    If the immigrants obey the law, pertaining to being here to the same extent that we obeyed the treaties with the Indians, or to the same extent that we obey our own, civil laws (being here illegally is a civil not a criminal law)

    Will that satisfy you?

    If not, then should they be the only ones to obey while we continue to disobey?

    Should we restore Indian treaty lands including Hawaii at the same time they are leaving? Or is strict adherence to law only for others and not for us, unless it is conveneint?

    ------

    Unless or until we set things right, we really shouldn't be throwing rocks at others who in thier time of dire need break minor laws. If we do, we are liable to break our own glass house.

    Get it?

  • ComSen1
    July 18, 2010 4:25 p.m.

    @cbj 3:47

    Completely agree with you. I'm not arguing that. We bought the Louisiana Purchase from France, and Alaska from Russia. Back then it was all "virgin territory" that had been claimed by a colonial powers. In fact, England had aspirations to purchase the Oregon territory but we got there first. The point is, that was colonial times, and it was the rule of the day. Anyone who is complaining about the land being "stolen" from Mexico is being hypocrital because it was stolen from the native peoples first. But the native peoples were in constant battles with themselves for territory. So how far back do you take it? In all honesty, you don't. Borders change constantly throughout history. They are still changing in eastern Europe. It's a fact of life. The Kurds are still fighting for a "country" as are the Basques, the Palestinians, the Irish Catholics, and the Zapotecs in southern Mexico. I'm not justifying it, it's a fact of life. Everybody wants a "homeland" it seems, except the people who are clamoring to make the US their homeland realize there is more to it than a line on paper.

  • cjb
    July 18, 2010 4:51 p.m.

    re ComSen1

    You: | Anyone who is complaining about the land being "stolen" from Mexico is being hypocrital because it was stolen from the native peoples first.

    Me: Mexican peoples are native peoples.

    You: But the native peoples were in constant battles with themselves for territory.

    Me: They had battles true, they also recognized territories, if they fought, that was an intermal matter among themselves. It doesn't impact our ownership of land positively or negatively.

    You: So how far back do you take it?

    Me: We still have Indian treaties that were not recinded which if kept would require we give back substantial amounts of land. Also in our insistance that others strictly obey law of immigration, how can we forget that we took the land away from these very people in a wrongful way?

    What I am saying is we need to be mindful of our history and act accordingly. We can and should be more accomidating.

    Do whites need to move off Indian treaty land? I wouldn't enforce such a thing, but given our history, we can be more accomidating to others. Morally speaking in answer to your questtion that's how far back we go.

  • wrz
    July 18, 2010 4:55 p.m.

    "If we let in 10,000,000 every year, how long will it be before our country is completely overpopulated, our resources depleted..."

    Watch "Immigration Gumballs" on YouTube and see.

  • wrz
    July 18, 2010 5:01 p.m.

    @cjb 3:47 p.m.:

    "Due to the way the land was gotten, we don't have clear title."

    Clear title is written with the barrel of a gun.

    "Not only with Mexico, the same thing happened with the Indians."

    You can validate your point by quickly moving off so-called Indian lands.

  • Christy
    July 18, 2010 5:15 p.m.

    @wrz,

    It's really not rocket science to realize that a 20 year wait to come here is ridiculous.

  • cjb
    July 18, 2010 5:31 p.m.

    re wrz | 5:01 p.m. July 18, 2010

    If law doesn't matter, then don't appeal to it.

  • wrz
    July 18, 2010 5:46 p.m.

    Christy: "It's really not rocket science to realize that a 20 year wait to come here is ridiculous."

    You didn't view "Immigration Gumballs" on YouTube did you?

    We should cut off all immigration. And enforce immigration laws.

    One important reason we take immigrants in is to provide labor for jobs that go begging. We don't need labor right now. We are full up, and more. We have 10 percent unemployment. That's 15 million people out of work. Right now, there are 8 million illegals taking Americans' jobs. Send them home, let Americans take these jobs, and our economy will soar.

  • RealLDS
    July 18, 2010 6:41 p.m.

    Illigal immigrant? The term itself is racially moivated. It's meant to dehumanize.

    Per the 14th amendmant, An (undocumented immigrant) has violated immigration requirements, but is still considered a legal person, as is anyone under the jurisdiction of the law. The equal protection clause was written to prevent state governments from defining any human being as anything less than a legal person.

    There is no such thing as an Illigal person and or immigrant.

    The undocumented entry into this country is also violation of a civil law and not a criminal law. To compare this to robbing a bank or any other criminal act is ridiculous!

  • attentive
    July 18, 2010 6:55 p.m.

    @ Hunt: Which is exactly why I won't be watching the first of a series on our immigration problems to be aired tonight on KSL - they are biased. It's as if all those who were commenting on the negative effects of illegal immigration have disappeared, which I KNOW is far from the truth, but comments posted by those who are against illegal immigration have become less and less here. I find that I am checking out the online Salt Lake Tribune more and more.

  • Bowser
    July 18, 2010 6:56 p.m.

    This subject is a very touchy. Both my wife and daughter have gone through the immigration process and it was very costly. I have 2 other daughters that were not allowed to enter the US because I did not stay long enough in thier country of orgin . I spent thousands of dollors only to to have thier status denied . To swim or sneak across illegally is wrong to burdon the people of that country with thier children and cost to educate them and provide food annd medical. These people and thier children should be deported , Just because Anerivca is close does not give you the same right as american citizens. Go Home and come back when you go through the process and relieve the american poeple of your burden on the tax systgem.

  • ds7
    July 18, 2010 7:01 p.m.

    for every $1 an illegal contributes in taxes, they remove $3 in benefits.

    we don't need any more illiterate, spanish speaking dishwashers, lawncare experts, cooks, mcdonald's counter workers, etc.

    the desnews should stop with the sob stories and appeals to sympathy and realize americans are sick of this mess. send them and their anchor babies back to mexico or whatever latin american country they escaped from so the family can be together. let them grow where they're planted.

  • ds7
    July 18, 2010 7:04 p.m.

    why do stories about illegals deserve anonymity, but whistleblowers must be exposed and prosecuted?

    the hypocrisy of the legacy media is obvious to even the casual observer.

  • trueamerican
    July 18, 2010 7:16 p.m.

    Samhill, do you realize how many people are trying to get into America? A long wait is expected. A LONG LONG wait. EVERYONE and their relatives desire to come to America. It's the best country in the world...all these immigrants, and illegal immigrants seem to attest to that. I would venture to guess that most immigrants here then sponsor others from their family to come into the U.S. So, it's not just every immigrant. It's them...and their families.

  • Spoc
    July 18, 2010 7:17 p.m.

    Many crimes will have both criminal penalties (jail and/or fines) and civil penalties so that I, as an individual, can sue for redress in addition to the criminal fines and fees that go to the state

    Immigration law provides for both criminal and civil penalties.

    Criminal penalty for first offense: up to 6 months in jail (a misdemeanor) and/or fines to be paid to the court. Civil penalty for first offense: $50 to $250 payable to the plaintiff.

    Criminal penalty for subsequent offenses: up to 2 years in prison (a felony) and/or fees and penalties payable to the court. Civil penalty for subsequent civil judgments: $100 to $500 payable to the plaintiff.

    Note that the speeding ticket so frequently referenced does not include incarceration. That is the defining distinction between what is classified as a crime and what is not. The penalty for both first offense and second offense can include jail/prison time.

    Therefore they are both criminal offenses that may ALSO be subject to civil penalties. There is even a subsequent paragraph clarifying that civil penalties are in addition to criminal penalties, not in place of them.

    Now about those subsequent enabling crimes...

  • Vanessa62
    July 18, 2010 7:19 p.m.

    wrz | 2:56 p.m. July 18, 2010

    So it's OK to take what you want by the barrel of a gun (so long as you're white), but not OK to build a better life by working 14-hour days for it (so long as you're non-white).

    Hmmmm... m'kay. Got it.

  • Vanessa62
    July 18, 2010 7:40 p.m.

    Geneina | 4:06 p.m. July 18, 2010

    "I would guess that many people living under a ruthless, communist government in East Germany felt the same way. However, President Monson consistently advised them to follow the laws of the land."

    Using that logic, the U.S. would still have slavery, Europe would be under Nazi rule (and European Jews, Poles, and any other non-Aryan European would be extinct), women wouldn't have the vote, child labor would still be peachy-keen, and Christianity wouldn't have made it out of the Roman Empire.

    That's just for starters.

    Because all those situations were "the law of the land" at some point. But here's the thing: Laws are changed all the time to reflect the changes in a society. When a law is unjust, cruel, inhuman, or just plain wrong, it is our DUTY, as citizens of a democratic society, to challenge those laws.

    Otherwise we are nothing but mindless sheep, and free thought is wasted on us.

    Ask the Jews who were sheltered by Germans during the Holocaust. Every one of those Germans were breaking 'the law of the land'.

    What would YOU have done, I wonder?



  • Vanessa62
    July 18, 2010 7:56 p.m.

    ds7 | 7:04 p.m. July 18, 2010
    "why do stories about illegals deserve anonymity, but whistleblowers must be exposed and prosecuted?"

    Hate to burst your hypocrisy-of-liberal-media/DN-advocates-for-illegal-immigration, but the FACTS are these:

    Nobody has publicly identified the alleged 'whistleblowers', so they have not been "exposed". Charges have not been filed, therefore prosecution is not a certainty.

    The only FACTS we know - at this point - is that DWFS believe two UNNAMED employees may have committed felony criminal acts.

    That's, like, y'know... criminals breaking the law.

    Also, re: "for every $1 an illegal contributes in taxes, they remove $3 in benefits."

    Got some facts to support that sweeping statement?

    Didn't think so.

    And again, "we don't need any more illiterate, spanish speaking dishwashers, lawncare experts, cooks, mcdonald's counter workers, etc."

    Then I guess "we" will just stop hiring them for those jobs. And, BTW, 'spanish speaking' doesn't = 'illiterate'. (That would be another of those pesky 'facts'.)

    How many other languages are you fluent in? If you're the typical American, that number would be... none.

    P.S. Facts are yummy. You should try some.

  • ouisc
    July 18, 2010 8:48 p.m.

    To folks that say the current immigration system in the U.S. is broken: it is currently the most efficient immigration system in the world, it's just that we are dealing with the largest immigration in the world.

    To folks who say the constitution protects everyone in America: can you have it both ways? Are you arguing to make changes to our laws, or not? Because the laws say those who aren't here legally should be deported.

    Illegal immigration is one thing. But illegal use of other's social security number, illegal claims for medical care, and illegally obtaining government benefits, are another. There is nothing good about being in the U.S. illegally. You really should have knocked, first.

    Is immigration process a pain? Yes. How much do you want to be here?? Changing country illegiances is a big deal.

  • JT4
    July 18, 2010 8:53 p.m.

    I'm in my mid-40's, and most of my political views have settled into slots from which I don't expect them to move. This is one topic, however, about which I might still be open to change of mind. At this point, I thoroughly hate to hear "para Espaol" when I dial any customer service number, and my wife from Japan probably hates it more. I didn't expect to get by in English when I lived in Japan, and my wife--here legally, of course, since few Japanese try to get here the other way--doesn't expect to get by in Japanese here. I also understood that if I didn't have legal approval to be in Japan, I should not expect someone to hire my in Japan. I wish enforcement would start with those who hire, and extend to not allowing citizenship or benefits to the children of those who aren't here legally. It seems as though we don't want to address the real reasons people are here illegally. But perhaps someone can present more powerful arguments for the other side than I have yet read here.

  • ouisc
    July 18, 2010 8:57 p.m.

    Vanessa, you're being a drama queen. All of your examples where's laws need to be changed are quite extreme. People voluntarily breaking the laws to come into our country is quite different from genocide or slavery.

    If we're changing laws on a whim, let's let go of our strict DUI laws. They take fathers away from their families, and the children suffer when their fathers are incarcerated for 6 months, or have to pay hefty fines. Let's also not incarcerate convicted felons, for the same reason.

    Instead, let's recognize the millions of people who come here legally. Many of these millions choose to stay. Many of these millions eventually acquire citizenship. It happens every day!

  • wrz
    July 18, 2010 9:35 p.m.

    @cjb 5:31 p.m.:

    "If law doesn't matter, then don't appeal to it."

    Which law? US? Mexico?

  • wrz
    July 18, 2010 9:50 p.m.

    @Vanessa62 7:19 p.m.:

    "So it's OK to take what you want by the barrel of a gun (so long as you're white)..."

    It's been done since the world began (at least since the invention of guns and gun powder) across the entire world. And it ain't gonna stop just becasue you might have an objection.

    "...but not OK to build a better life by working 14-hour days for it (so long as you're non-white)."

    It's perfectly ok to work 14-hour days to build a better life. But, if you don't hold citizenship and wish to do so in the US you must get permission from the federal government.

  • wrz
    July 18, 2010 10:05 p.m.

    @Vanessa62 7:56 p.m.:

    "Nobody has publicly identified the alleged 'whistleblowers', so they have not been 'exposed.'"

    True. But they have been put on administrative leave which is tantamount to exposure.

    "Then I guess 'we' will just stop hiring them for those jobs."

    I think you are finally getting it.

    "How many other languages are you fluent in?"

    An interesting g point. My TV cable broadcasts perhaps a dozen programs in Spanish. I will soon need to speak Spanish in order to view them.

  • Enough is enough!
    July 18, 2010 10:22 p.m.

    There is nothing wrong with our immigration laws. We do not have an obligation to take ANYONE who wants to come here. The laws provide for methodical, controlled immigration. If followed in the past, we would not be in the situation we are currently in.

    Our governor and other officials have reportedly used the word "deplorable" (and other terms) to describe the leaking of the "list" from Utah government databases. It IS deplorable to break the law in this way. HOWEVER, I hope they will also use it to describe the illegals who are here. Their behavior IS deplorable as well.

    If you want to be a US citizen, breaking the law is not the way to show it. You fill out the papers, pay the money and WAIT YOUR TURN!

    When my great-grandfather immigrated here from Switzerland, he spoke five languages fluently. He would only allow English to be spoken in his home, because he was now an American and Americans spoke English.

    We should all be grateful for Arizona...let's get behind our own legislators and follow the AZ example.

  • Phred
    July 18, 2010 10:37 p.m.

    JT4,
    The language question is more than an annoyance. It is a major element in defining culture. Most nations (not all) are defined by the geographic boundaries of the groups that speak a common language. These are the most stable countries.

    In those countries that have internal areas with a strong affinity for a language that is different from the rest of the country, they identify not with the nation but with the sub-group and their sense of independence creates conflict and often ends in an effort to secede from the rest of the nation.

    You don't have to look far to see examples of this: French Quebec wants to leave Canada, Ireland wants to kick out the English, the Basques are trying to leave Spain, Belgium is already split joined only by a Court system for resolving differences between French and Dutch speaking territories.

    Such is rapidly becoming the case in much of the Southwest, and in southern California the dream of retaking the southwest is fueling some pretty bold politics. Why bother to learn English?

    When they gain the right to vote, where will their loyalties lie, with the USA or with Aztlan?

  • SLars
    July 18, 2010 11:48 p.m.

    So there is only a wait for people from 4 countries, the Philippines, Mexico, India and China?

    So it is a problem of the demand surpassing the supply in those countries?

  • PPpatriot
    July 19, 2010 5:32 p.m.

    Rather than amnesty for the current illegal invaders, we should be passing comprehensive legal visa reform to greatly accelerate and streamline the process. Of course Mexico's quota would be zero, until all the existing illegals self deported or were legally deported and got back in the legal visa line.

  • awsomeron
    July 20, 2010 2:10 p.m.

    I know that the system has problems, and I am sorry.

    It often depends on who you know, what your education status is, and what you can bring to the table. Brain Surgeons before Field Workers.

    I am sorry her kids didn’t make it to America (yet) and her process took so long.

    We may need to fix that. In the mean time we have Laws and they need to be enforced.

    America has been pretty Liberal about letting people in legally. During the Cold War we allowed people to Defect, from places like Russia.

    Also Defectors to other Countries have continued on to America.

    We have to put a Limit to it and a Cap on it. You must bring something to the Table and you must learn English and adjust and melt in. I do not care who you pray to, or even if you pray. I will fight just as hard for your Freedom From Religion as I will for your Freedom Of Religion. Sometimes Harder.

    I am sorry it is so hard to come here, but we can't turn into India. I worked and fought hard for Americas Freedoms, I will enjoy it.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan
    July 22, 2010 10:50 a.m.

    Comparing the 10 year wait to stop lights is the most off-base comparison I have read all week.

    Personally I think we need to change the laws to allow the bringing of any children who were minors at the time of the initial application to immigrate.

    Also, I think we need to end the flaw of limiting the number of people per country. This inherently discriminates against more populous countries. We should allow each individual to come on an equal system and end the system of quotas per country.

    As long as we have the latter the rhetoric about obeying the law is empty because it ignores the fact that residents of San Marino have a much better chance of coming here legally than those of Mexico.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan
    July 22, 2010 1:44 p.m.

    "We have a U.S. citizen who cannot have his wife here," says state Sen. Luz Robles, D-Salt Lake. "That is an atrocity."

    We need a reasonable response. This couple has been married five years. This is no sham marriage to avoid deportation. The stress of the immigration process is leading to some people having mental break downs and increasing divorce rates.

    End the madness. Let freedom ring.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan
    July 22, 2010 1:56 p.m.

    One issue ignored in the rhetoric about immigration is that a high percentage of illegal immigrants did not come here illegally. Many came here legally on various types of visas, such as H1B, but they lost their job, the visa ran out, or other issues. In many cases when this happens people just stay instead of going back to their country of origin.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan
    July 22, 2010 2:04 p.m.

    I know people who if they are driving in Detroit run red lights because they fear for their safety if they do not. I think they are paranoid, but that is what they do.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan
    July 22, 2010 2:08 p.m.

    As long as the immigration policies give preferential treatment to the rich, you have to accept that enforcing them is a method of opprssing the poor.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan
    July 22, 2010 2:22 p.m.

    Venessa,
    You got that right. Beuracats make things complicated. What one has to realize is if the beuarcrat reduces his work load, then his job can be eliminated. What every beuracrat needs is to increase his workload to a point where he can justify getting underlings highered. That way he goes from just controling the lives of people he never sees to being a manager.

    I am guessing 95% of those who commented on this article did not even bother to read it. I just hope there is another group who read it and were changed by it.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan
    July 22, 2010 2:33 p.m.

    Not_Scared,
    Does the drug use figure include abuse of perscription drugs? Does the figure include those using drugs under the age of 12? Does it include illegal consumption of alchohol by those under 21?

    How exactly is a person who was carried across the border at age 2 months a criminal? If someone can commit a crime without knowingly doing anything, it is hard to see that there is any crime involved.

    What we need is a method to regularize those here, a method to allow for quick, large scale, temporary immigration that reflects the humanity of immigrants, and a method to increse respect for laws.

    If compliance with traffic laws is better when they are based on an engineering study, than maybe compliance with immigration laws would be better if we wrote our laws to reflect the actual level of international migration.

    The claims of having ancestors wait 9 years to immigrate from Ireland during the potato famine are based on misunderstandings. Prior to 1921 a person just showed up at the US border, and was let in or not based on health conditions and other issues. There were no quotas, no visa application fees etc.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan
    July 22, 2010 2:40 p.m.

    My last comment is not to say no illegal immigration occured before 1921 or no one had to wait.

    People had to wait to save up money to pay for the voyage across the ocean. As late as 1928 a lady coming with two kids from Mexico to the US could tell the border guards "my husband is working in an auto factory in Detroit and we are going to join him" and they would let her pass on. No visa, no passport, no photo ID, no fees, no study to see if she was within quota, just let her through on her word.

    So any attempts to compare the process of immigration before 1921 to what it is like today are based on false premises.

    Alternatively, transportation potential in the world is also different today, the cost of migration and so on.

    Lastly people need to reconsider the frontier rhetoric because it ignores the fact that the busiest immigration decade was 1900-1910, and the masses were pooring into the Lower East Side of NYC and other concentrated areas to work in factories, not generally to work on farms.

  • Mazin Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 22, 2010 1:20 a.m.

    What a disgusting rationalization for breaking the law. Most Americans support strong enforcement and limited immigration. Yet, special interests continue to cloud the issue with bogus notions such as compassion. Illegal immigrants, for the most part, came here on their own volition. They came for the money, and it seems the majority retain more affection for Mexico than the U.S. Let's get our house in order. We need strong enforcement. No amnesty. No excuses. No exceptions.