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Dick Harmon: Will move to Pac-10 affect Utah Utes recruiting?

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  • RealityCheck
    July 3, 2010 12:22 a.m.

    It seems that is already has made an impact, given the number of kids that have committed to Utah over the past 3 weeks. Not all of them are elite type players, but you can tell by the sheer number of commitments that kids are getting excited about suiting up for the red & white.

  • Porter
    July 3, 2010 12:27 a.m.

    I think the Utes will probably go after fewer Utah high school players, as they will get more top rated west coast players. It may actually benefit USU and BYU, with the Utah kids the Utes now won't want.

  • SoCalUte92782
    July 3, 2010 1:28 a.m.

    Nice to see Dick Harmon has recovered from his rant on ESPN.

  • Big Rock
    July 3, 2010 2:02 a.m.

    I lost (and wasted) a few minutes of my life reading this article. There is absolutely no facts, new information, or anything beyond speculation here. Maybe Mr. Harmon should stick to writing about BYU. Articles with such little merit would be fine for BYU fans.

  • FAYM
    July 3, 2010 2:59 a.m.

    "SoCalUte92782 | 1:28 a.m. July 3, 2010
    Nice to see Dick Harmon has recovered from his rant on ESPN."

    That, or he is a reporter and calls things like he sees them... You know, the guys from ESPN ask a question, he gives them an answer... that type of thing.

    It's funny, but in the MWC, BYU has been ranked top 25 in the past 4 years, TCU and U, and now BSU have done the BCS thingie, w/o being from an AQ conference, but have gone out and beat the BCS schools.

    Sure, it will help. Utah needed to have help to bring in the caliber player that BYU gets. BYU has brought in studs for years. Hopefully Utah will get their fair share of them now, so that Utah can become a consistant team.

    They'll lose in the PAC because of coaching (Kyle is good, not great), but the players on the field will be the level of BYU, just not the heart that the BYU player shows (they come through at moneytime).

    Utah in the PAC will be what they were in the MWC. A mid-level team, just better players.

  • hedgehog
    July 3, 2010 4:59 a.m.

    The fact that Whitt already has 17 solid verbals as of July 4th speaks volumes. I expect the Utes to be very very picky with remaining 9 or so offers.

  • flex
    July 3, 2010 6:02 a.m.

    It's only a rant if his statements were untrue!...The truth usually does offend!

  • Archie
    July 3, 2010 6:14 a.m.

    @SoCalUte92782 | 1:28 a.m. July 3, 2010

    The downside is Dick's ESPN rant reached a national audience and this column is only in the Deseret News. Sadly, I regard this column as a weak attempt by the DN to redeem itself from the recent rants from Harmon and Robinson.

  • chad sexington
    July 3, 2010 6:18 a.m.

    Yes, but Dick, how does this affect byu? What does this mean for byu? What is byu going to get from all of this and does it bode well for byu? I simply cannot accept that you wrote an entire column without mentioning byu. I won't accept that.

  • NewMexicoUte
    July 3, 2010 7:01 a.m.

    Utah becoming part of the Pac-10 is huge! Now they just have to get some of those 4 and 5 star recruits, try and go 11-1 or 12-0 this year and Utah will continue to become a BCS powerhouse. Only time will tell.

  • Disco Vega
    July 3, 2010 7:14 a.m.

    The impac will be huge...lets all live in reality...money talks and the sheer financial numbers will have a tremendous impac on the Ute program...can't wait to see and be apart of the whole thing...so proud to be a Ute!

  • Portland Trail Blazers
    July 3, 2010 7:27 a.m.

    Nobody cares about the Utes!

    GO DUCKS!!!

  • Magna Ute Fan
    July 3, 2010 7:44 a.m.

    @ Porter; Perhaps they will go after fewer Utah kids. But I think the real question here is will they gain a significant advantage in getting the best Utah kids? We'll see.

    Go Utes!

  • Bruce
    July 3, 2010 7:54 a.m.

    Being in the Pac-10 will initially help Utah with recruiting, but eventually they will fall back into mediocrity. The State of Utah is known for being tight with money. If you look at national statistics, Utah ranks last or close to last in all categories that require public funding. Utah football is currently experiencing a golden era that will not last. In a few years their coaching staff will be lured away to greener pastures and their facilities will become dated and unimpressive. At that point in time the Utah team will be a lower echelon team in the Pac-10.

  • RobSing
    July 3, 2010 8:00 a.m.

    agreed. looks like dick harmon finally changed his diaper after the espn thing. we did they have him on anyways??

  • byronbca
    July 3, 2010 8:19 a.m.

    Yes it's going to affect recruting, how could it not.

  • GoUtah
    July 3, 2010 8:25 a.m.

    Dick Harmon should stick to writing articles about his "mid-major" TDS. Also, is this article's title rhetorical? Obviously Utah's joining the PAC will have a positive effect on Utah's programs . . . Duh?

    Like the TDS fight song, "rise and shout the TDS is OUT" not only applies to becoming a BCS school, but also holds true to their recruiting efforts, too! They're out . . .

  • Y Grad / Y Dad
    July 3, 2010 8:26 a.m.

    There ARE so many factors that it is tough to tell why, but yes, I do think Utah's recruiting will improve, but no, I don't necessarily think it will be (very much) at BYU's expense.

    With a limited number of scholarships to fill, and a bigger landscape to choose from, it seems to me that Utah WILL go after fewer local players.

    BYU has always been a unique (or weird, if you prefer) place to recruit to. For us, it has always been a bigger story when a big time and/or non-LDS kid chooses BYU. I don't think that has changed.

    The non-theories will be fun, too. For example, when a Ute fan claims a local / LDS kid only chose BYU over Utah because he wouldn't get to play as fast at Utah because of their already established superiority.

    Honestly, Utah, you got everything we wish we got: more money, better recruiting, more opportunity, better exposure. Congratulations!

    But I still think 3 out of 4 is about right and will continue. And I think periodic BCS appearances for Utah will continue, with mediocrity or slightly better in between.

  • Ebom
    July 3, 2010 8:37 a.m.

    Re: FAYM

    I watched the interview on ESPN, that was a rant. They asked nothing about BYU and Dick went off like a jealous child not getting a bowl of ice cream. That was not "journalistic".

    Saying BYU players have heart is like saying Boozer is staying with the Jazz. You'd like it to be true, but it's just not.

    As far as a "mid-level" team in the MWC, ask Alabama what they thought about it.

  • GoUtah
    July 3, 2010 8:54 a.m.

    @ Y Grad / Y Dad

    Your recent post is very well thought out and insightful. Well done. However your "opinion" is stuck in the '80's. College recruits are all about getting exposure, being see on the big screen. The TDS can't promise that like Utah can.

    The choice for local recruits to stay in the state, close to mama, enjoy a great LDS environment (state's largest LDS institute), still serve a mission, play in the PAC AND for a chance to play in the Rose Bowl AND for a true National Championship is far too compelling.

    You need to take off those old, blue shaded glasses and see the future for what it truly will be . . . Rose color!

  • Ebom
    July 3, 2010 8:55 a.m.

    One thing Dick forgot was the Texas market. Utah has been recruiting there for years before TCU was a part of the conference and got solid recruits. That won't change now that Utah again won't make it to Dallas/Ft Worth every other year. What else did Mr. Harmon forget?

  • AggieFan74
    July 3, 2010 8:57 a.m.

    HA! HA! HA! Go Utes! This PAC-10 thing is really getting under the skin of BYU types. HA! HA! HA! Sorry all you Utah County dry-wallers but the Ute football program is going to be very competitive in the PAC-10 and reduce BYU to a second rate enterprize within the intermoutain region. I can see it now-a sold out Rice Eccles stadium week after week to see big-time west coast programs come to town while the Kittens are struggling to fill LaVell's edifice for games with Wyoming, New Mexico, Colorado State, UNLV, and yes-even Utah State, etc. etc. HA! HA! HA!

  • Utah'95
    July 3, 2010 8:58 a.m.

    "...just not the heart that the BYU player shows (they come through at moneytime)."

    Please define "moneytime.

    This is how I see it:

    Oklahoma - national stage, playing a preseason top-5 team. Great win for the Cougars.

    Florida State - well known football program. Definitely a moneytime-type game. But the Cougars got blown out on their home field.

    TCU - you've got to win this one to have a chance at the conference title. BYU lost by 31 - a second blow-out loss at LES.

    Utah - big rivalry game. Cougars tough it out in OT. That's a quality win.

    Oregon State - big win against a quality opponent in a bowl.

    2009 - 3 very good wins, but 2 ugly losses at home in "moneytime."

    In 2008, BYU played three money games. Don't try to count Washington and UCLA, they finished 0-12 and 4-8 respectively. BYU lost by 25 to TCU, lost by 24 to Utah, and lost by 10 to Arizona in their bowl game.

    2008 - 0-3 in moneytime.

    Don't get me wrong. I believe BYU is a very good football team. But you overreached with you're "they come through in moneytime" comment.



  • Chris B
    July 3, 2010 9:00 a.m.

    Yes. Big time. Tds is done

  • Utahute72
    July 3, 2010 9:12 a.m.

    I agree that BYU will not be seriously affected, since BYU and Utah both go after only about 8-10 kids a year there is not a lot of overlap, so maybe this bump gives Utah a plus one or two here. USU may be the biggest beneficiary of the move because Utah will be leaving more instate kids in the mid level range out there for them as they move stronger out of state. Also all three schools will benefit from the Utah programs getting stronger.

  • SoCalUtahFan
    July 3, 2010 9:23 a.m.

    @Porter..."It may actually benefit USU and BYU, with the Utah kids the Utes now won't want..."

    You took the words out of my mouth. BYU will inherit kids that Utah does not want on the recruiting trails --being Utah, CA, Oregon, WA or Texas, until BYU can start making BCS bowl

  • 9er4life
    July 3, 2010 9:29 a.m.

    @Bruce
    I think you're dreaming if think Utah will be mediocre in the Pac10. Even if that's the case, it's a position the Y would love to be in. It's a jealousy the Y have as well as other MWC teams have right with Utah. The Utah game will be their biggest game of the year for each team. It will be fun to watch as the Utes blow them out in their last season as mid major team. I think Jordan Wynn will have a great season.

  • scenic view
    July 3, 2010 9:37 a.m.

    The Utes are only good when their toughest games are at home. Send them on the road and the Utes fold like a house of cards.

    The last PAC 10 team with a winning record that the Utes were able to beat on the road was Stanford way back in 1996, the year BYU went 14-1 and beat Kansas State in the Cotton Bowl to finish #5 in both polls.

    Utah last ten PAC 10 road games

    W 1996 @Stanford (7-5) 17-10
    L 1997 @Oregon (7-5) 13-31
    W 1999 @Wash St (3-9) 27-7
    L 2000 @Cal (3-8) 21-24
    L 2001 @Oregon (11-1) 10-24
    L 2002 @Arizona (4-8) 17-23
    W 2004 @Arizona (3-8) 23-6
    L 2006 @UCLA (7-6) 10-31
    L 2007 @Oregon St (7-4) 7-24
    L 2009 @Oregon (10-2) 24-31

  • Cougars --Best Little Brothers
    July 3, 2010 9:37 a.m.

    Dear Dick,

    Nice recovery from one of the DN writers from all the recent nonsense rants lately on why Utah is a "major" school while TDS still remains "mid-major".

  • Casper
    July 3, 2010 9:37 a.m.

    @Bruce | 7:54 a.m. July 3, 2010
    @Live Hard | 6:30 a.m. July 3, 2010
    @FAYM | 2:59 a.m. July 3, 2010

    What...are you guys prophets?? You talk about the future like its a fact (future fact...there's a new one). YOU have no idea what is going to happen to Utah in the PAC. Every time one of YOU unequivocally states that Utah won't be able to beat good teams week in and week out and will never achieve a championship in the PAC like they could in the MWC, YOU make a case for the BCS you claim to despise.

    Do you realize that every time BYU fans make a comment of that nature they are in effect saying that the MWC should not be an AQ conference? I'm merely wondering if you are thinking through these comments to a logical conclusion.

    There is no such thing as future facts. Do you understand that?

  • Joe Schmoe
    July 3, 2010 9:39 a.m.

    It will at first seem like a good thing.

    However, when they reach 5th place or lower for several years in a row, Utah will become the ASU and WSU of the Pac-10.

    I'm worried for them.

    $$$ helps with facilities but it all really comes down to what they can accomplish on the field.

    In the last 5 years I don't think Utah even finished above 3rd place in the MWC except for one season.

  • Utes = Cougars' Big Brothers
    July 3, 2010 9:50 a.m.

    BYU 2010 predicksons:

    BYU 24 UW 17
    BYU 37 AFA 28
    FSU 45 BYU 21
    BYU 35 Nevada 31
    BYU 31 USU 21
    BYU 28 SDSU 21
    TCU 49 BYU 31
    BYU 35 Wyo 28
    BYU 24 UNLV 3
    BYU 38 CSU 28
    BYU 28 UNM 18
    Utah 42 BYU 35

    Another 9-3 season with the loss in the "Cougar BCS Bowl" in Las Vegas to California

  • UtahUtes1
    July 3, 2010 9:50 a.m.

    FAYM | 2:59 a.m. July 3, 2010

    "They'll lose in the PAC because of coaching (Kyle is good, not great), but the players on the field will be the level of BYU, just not the heart that the BYU player shows (they come through at moneytime)."

    Good grief...I'm simply at a loss of words for this one. May I have a reality check here, please??

  • Utes = Cougars' Big Brothers
    July 3, 2010 9:51 a.m.


    2010 predictions for BYU: losses to FSU, TCU, Utah and California in "Cougar BCS Bowl" in Las Vegas to end the season at 9-4

    Not too bad of a season.

  • MOUte
    July 3, 2010 9:52 a.m.

    I's great to see so much interest in the Utah program by BYU faithful. Just can't help yourselves, can you??

  • MUSSing with U
    July 3, 2010 9:54 a.m.

    Utah - bigger stage, smaller performance

    BYU - smaller stage, bigger performance

    Utah will pick up a few more kids from California, but now the Utes will be competing head-to-head with all of the PAC 12 teams, which will result in only a slight improvement in recruiting, mostly among non-LDS recruits.

    BYU will continue to sign quality athletes who not only want to play for a great football program, but players who also value the standards required of BYU students.

    Bronco has always stressed that there are more important things in life than football and that message will continue to resonate with both LDS and non-LDS recruits.

  • Las Vegas Cougar BCS Bowl
    July 3, 2010 9:58 a.m.


    Nice article.
    Welcome to reality.

    We can now all get along...

  • SportsFan
    July 3, 2010 10:04 a.m.

    Casper

    Is there a difference between BYU fans predicting that Utah will be a middle of the pack or even a bottom feeder in the PAC 12 and Utah fans predicting that Utah will be an instant contender for PAC 12 championships and Rose Bowl appearances?

    Nobody knows how competitive Utah is going to be in the PAC 12.

    The gloom and doom predictions of BYU fans are just as valid as chest thumping predictions of Utah fans.

  • utah10
    July 3, 2010 10:13 a.m.

    What does it matter both BYU and Utah both suck. Utah in there best years would have lost 3-4 games in a real conference and because they beat an overrated team in Bama they are the new power in college football. I don't mind Utah and BYU football programs but the fans always think they are better then they really are. It takes more then 1 qaulity win to make a program. No the Pitt game doesn't count. They were horrible. 7-4 in a down Big East. Not good.

  • Hellooo
    July 3, 2010 10:21 a.m.

    Given the U has now joined an obviously biased against LDS league, it would seem to me they will be less able to recruit as many quality LDS kids, which has been the heart of their improvement ever since Mac became the coach. This is a great opportunity for USU to rejuvenate its program and now become a major football school in the WAC. Utah will need every dollar plus to compete now for those 4 and 5 star recruits, no more 3 years of average and 1 of excellence. It will have to be every year. Utes will not tolerate 8-4 and 7-5 seasons. Go Aggies!!!

  • chad sexington
    July 3, 2010 10:30 a.m.

    SportsFan,
    It's true that no one knows how UTAH will fare in the new PAC. I have not, however, seen the chest thumping from UTE fans that you reference. The facts are that UTAH will receive more money, UTAH will play on a bigger stage every single week, UTAH will have a chance to play for all the marbles. The assumptions are that UTAH will compete for a higher level of recruit, UTAH should be competitive in the new PAC and that UTAH will be able to achieve more stability and continuity with quality coaches on the staff. Does that count as chest thumping?

  • GoUtah
    July 3, 2010 10:37 a.m.

    @ Utes = Cougars' Big Brothers

    Good analysis. However, I think you've given the TDS a little too much credit. They're not going to win that many games and the game with Utah will not be that close. Given their quarterback situation, they'll go 7 and 5.

    They will, of course, lose the Las Vegas bowl. That's their tradition.

  • GoUtah
    July 3, 2010 10:37 a.m.

    @ Utes = Cougars' Big Brothers

    Good analysis. However, I think you've given the TDS a little too much credit. They're not going to win that many games and the game with Utah will not be that close. Given their quarterback situation, they'll go 7 and 5.

    They will, of course, lose the Las Vegas bowl. That's their tradition.

  • astroboy
    July 3, 2010 10:40 a.m.

    On the field, byu has been more consistent, but utah has show to have a higher ceiling. Off the field ( recruiting) to me it's apples and oranges, but utah has an obvious plus now they didn't have before, byu has stayed the same (for now).

    My personal prediction is utah will improve recruiting slightly, not at the expense of byu, but will improve it's record against byu. How utah performs in and against the PAC is yet to be seen.

  • LCBSoCal
    July 3, 2010 10:43 a.m.

    Hey FAYM:

    You said,"Utah in the PAC will be what they were in the MWC. A mid-level team, just better players."

    I'm just wondering what color the sky is on your planet, because here on earth Utah has been the premier program in the MWC for the last 10 years.

  • Casper
    July 3, 2010 10:53 a.m.

    SportsFan | 10:04 a.m. July 3, 2010

    "The gloom and doom predictions of BYU fans are just as valid as chest thumping predictions of Utah fans."

    I absolutely agree...no one knows. However, the point is that BYU fans are shooting themselves in the foot when they stated that Utah will not be able to compete in the PAC. Especially since Utah competes so well in the MWC.

    You guys aren't thinking about what you're saying. Then again, the national media couldn't care less about DN sports boards so it really doesn't matter, I suppose.

  • UteFan123
    July 3, 2010 10:59 a.m.

    Live Good you are obviously contradicting yourself saying that the MWC is better then the PAC, then you state that Utah will not be able to compete in the PAC like ASU and AU. Which one is the PAC is less then a conference then the MWC or the teams in the MWC are more pathetic then the teams in the PAC. If so BYU has no chance if they move to the BIG12 since the MWC is below the PAC better but better then the PAC confused? I am too with your stupid statement that has no fact or relevance to how good Utah can be with more money better recruits and a coaching staff that knows how to win the big game.
    Have fun in the MWC spend the $1.2 wisely maybe Bronco can be another magic coin for his players to rub together.

  • davidutefan
    July 3, 2010 11:06 a.m.

    Hmmm...The Utes finish third or better in the MWC for quite some time now and are competetive in their losses (with the TCU eception last year), The TDS fans claim that the MWC is better than the PAC, and predict Utah will be "bottom feeders" in the PAC. Your logic eludes me.

  • Silverbackmonkey
    July 3, 2010 12:26 p.m.

    Ok, I think people are missing the point. It has been said that Utah will now have to compete with other PAC schools for their recruits. This is true, and here is the point, it has been true for the past 10+ years. Utah has been recruiting from the same pool as the PAC for years. So why should Utah's situation be any different than before? Because now the can wave the PAC flag in front of the PAC kids they are trying to recruit instead of waving the MWC flag in front of the PAC kids they are trying to recruit. Do you see the difference? Have I spelled it out enough? Utah was an outsider before and did a fine job recruiting, now they are going back to the same pool as an insider, that alone will help their chances of getting higher quality players.

  • WHAT NOW?
    July 3, 2010 1:00 p.m.

    UTAH could spend years getting to the top of the PAC-10 (12) (see Arizona).

    or

    UTAH could rise to the top of the PAC-10, the way TCU has moved up in the MWC.

    Who knows?

    One point:


    If Harvey Unga was at UTAH, he would still be playing football. His "honor code" violation would have been taken care of by his bishop/ branch president/ stake president.

    The honor code at BYU is a wonderful thing for those who abide by it or don't get caught breaking it.

  • Carson
    July 3, 2010 1:06 p.m.

    From Dick Harmon right down to the BYU fans, our move to the Pac12 is just eating zoobieville alive. Your posts prove it!

  • Tom in CA
    July 3, 2010 1:17 p.m.

    Re: GoUtah 10:37

    Here's the QB situation:

    By the time November rolls around Heaps and Apo will shred the Utah defense while Quezada is averaging 6.5 up the middle.

    Right after Utah is crushed by TCU and Notre Dame it will be:

    BYU 51
    Utah 17

    And then don't let the door hit you too hard on the way out. Adios little brother.

  • Bigdude
    July 3, 2010 1:29 p.m.

    Does Washington State recruit well? What about Stanford? Will Utah be closer to Washington State or UCLA? By the way, UCLA recruits very well, but still struggles. Same as the University of Washington in recent years.

  • JIMMER
    July 3, 2010 1:37 p.m.

    One point that is missing is TV coverage. I work on the East coast weekly. People have no idea who the MWC is and have not seen teams play football. There is no coverage for kids and parents to see our programs on TV. Now the Utes have an opportunity to go recruit kids and tell their parents that they can see them play weekly. This will help with recruiting as parents and scouts can see the Utes play. As kids and parents visit Utah, they could easily check out BYU while in town. This could help all programs in the future. Hopefully BYU is not too far behind with an opportunity to move out of this conference and the poor leadership that exists. Who ever made the television deal should be unemployed. Whittingham now has the opportunity to look a parent in the eye and tell them they can see their kids play ball weekly and have a chance to be in a BCS game. Prior, the Utes could only hope to have a BCS opportunity. Hope is not a good strategy. GO UTES!! Make a big splash!

  • DocSarvis
    July 3, 2010 1:46 p.m.

    It's already affected Utah recruiting. As soon as Utah got the PAC 10 invite, Whittingham's phone started getting calls from players who wouldn't consider Utah the week before. Fact. Stick to covering BYU, Harmon.

  • GoUtah
    July 3, 2010 1:52 p.m.

    @Tom in CA

    Heaps hasn't thrown a Div. 1 pass and he's already amazing. Reminds me of another "boy-wonder" by the name of "Shoemaker." Remember him and all the hype? You're pinning your dreams on a "Hope."

    However, you are so lucky to be in CA. All those CA schools playing Utah! Wow, I'm really jealous. But, I'm guessing the real jealousy lies with you due to your "mid-major" TDS team stuck in the MWC? Looks like "Big Bro." didn't graduate, huh?

    You should "rise and shout" because the TDS is OUT.

  • Las Vegas Cougar BCS Bowl
    July 3, 2010 1:53 p.m.

    @Tom in CA...

    what part of CA are you in?
    San Quentin - Marin County?

    I did not know they have internet in the area now.
    Hm....I am guessing that's why CA is broke.

    Anyway, dream on --that's all you have.

  • ProudRedUtahAlum
    July 3, 2010 1:58 p.m.

    Tom in CA: Ha ha ha! You are TOO funny. I needed a good laugh. Good luck to the Heaper Creeper and Aho after the Utes get done with them. Have fun in the MWC.

  • Paul Revere
    July 3, 2010 2:36 p.m.

    To all you Ute fans before you continue your "giddy" arrogance at being invited to join the PAC 10 I suggest you take a history lesson. In the 1970s and 1980s I was living in Arizona when the two Arizona schools were invited to join the PAC 8. I read the same comments in the Arizona papers from both Sun Devil and Wildcat fans. Have they dominated the PAC 10 on a regular basis. I think if you look at their achievements you'll see that outside of Arizona's basketball program, and ASU's baseball they have for the most part been mediocre. How many BCS games have they played in since the BCS was created. The majority of their membership in the PAC 10 they have played in bowls outside of the BCS system.

    When Frank Kush was coaching at ASU he was opposed to leaving the WAC. I wish Coach Whit and the and the rest of the athletic teams good luck, however I would also encourage you to understand this simple saying that the "grass is not always greener on the otherside."

  • Spicy McHaggis
    July 3, 2010 2:37 p.m.

    I find it odd that so-called "fans" of other schools think Utah going to the PAC is a bad decision which they will regret.
    Without Utah in the MWC, byu has a MUCH easier path to the BCS. At path I doubt they will ever complete.
    Sure the MWC was an easier way to get in to the BCS than the PAC will be but in the PAC you can make it with a loss or two.
    The 04 Utah team and the 09 TCU team are significantly better than what byu will ever put on the field. It's not even close.
    Utah will still lose recruiting battles but they'll win more of them now.
    Byu is still a great option. Utah is clearly the better choice if a kid has NFL aspirations plus Utah doesn't have bronco's inherent wierdness to deal with.
    Utah was the obvious choice for the PAC.

  • SportsFan
    July 3, 2010 2:54 p.m.

    Tom in CA

    Pay no attention to the personal attacks from Utah fans; they're famous for using personal attacks instead of real arguments in their rebuttals, especially when the shiney image of themselves is questioned by their rivals.

    Pittsburgh, Air Force, Notre Dame, TCU and BYU are all games that Utah will probably lose. Throw in an upset loss or two as parting gifts from other MWC teams, and the Utes could easily be looking at a 7-5 or even 6-6 season.

    Let the personal attacks begin.

  • UteMan
    July 3, 2010 3:10 p.m.

    @ Tom in CA

    Hanging your hopes on two Freshman to get the job done against a tough road schedule. Let's check back at the end of the year and you can let us know how your prediction turned out.

    Do you also have 7 new freshman for your defense to keep teams from scoring 50 against you this year? Looks to me like you will have Pendleton and the 10 dwarfs!

    How about we check back after week one and you will know what 0-1 looks like with an inexperienced team.

  • TheHailstorm
    July 3, 2010 4:01 p.m.

    TO: No- Sports Fan
    " Pay no attention to the personal attacks from BYU fans; they're famous for using personal attacks instead of real arguments in their rebuttals, especially when the shiny image of themselves is questioned by their rivals."
    They also give their sad and pitiful lives validity by living vicariously through the football/basketball/Dance teams.

  • moodyblue1977
    July 3, 2010 4:01 p.m.

    It should definitely help for football. With good recruiters, the Utes should be able to attract more blue chip recruits. But the Utes have beaten the blue chip problem by finding raw athletes who are willing to work.

    But the number of good players on the roster should improve.

    It will be fascinating to watch.

    In any sport where NCAA championships are accesible to everybody, the recruiting advantage will be negligible. Why go to Uath, when you can go to schools that already compete and win on a regular basis? This is the big mountain for the Utes to climb. A number of coaches will need to be fired. New sports will have to be added.

    As I said, fascinating to watch.

  • CrimsonUte
    July 3, 2010 4:03 p.m.

    "I still think 3 out of 4 is about right and will continue."

    BYU hasn't had a 75% win average over an extended period of time since the 80s. You say 3 out of 4, but you don't mention it is also 3 out of 5, 3 out of 6, 3 out of 7 or 3 out of 8. Four years is a more convenient window for BYU fans to quote.

    Over the last two years Utah and BYU have been 50/50, and really, that's about what it's been for the last decade or two.

  • duggity
    July 3, 2010 4:04 p.m.

    SportsFan. I'm hoping you're just posting that to get a reaction out of Utah fans because I haven't talked to a single cougar fan in person that doesn't expect at least 10 wins out of Utah this year. Pittsburgh will be starting a new quarterback along with a defense that is really bad, especially vs. the pass. 137th last year with little prospect for big improvement. Good running back but their offense will most likely be one dimensional at first which Utah's defense will tear apart. Picking Air Force for the win is a bit delusional don't you think? Notre Dame has a new coach. Starting a new QB that is currently recovering from ACL surgery. Their defense is horrific. 192nd in the country in yards allowed last year, and 132nd in scoring defense. Also little or no improvement expected. TCU is a tough one. Utah has them at home but they are darn good. Lost Hughes and several other greats on defense. Too close to predict. BYU will probably still be good next year, but I don't see them having the defense to stop Utah this year. No personal attacks necessary.

  • BluCoug
    July 3, 2010 4:22 p.m.

    @ GoUtah

    All it will take is a flip of the switch and BYU will be in 55 million household globally. Utah can't offer anything like that nor can any other college. BYU has a plan that will make other colleges cringe, especially utah.

  • duggity
    July 3, 2010 4:30 p.m.

    blucoug. The big problem with your theory is that you imply people will want BYU in their home.

  • Joe Schmoe
    July 3, 2010 4:33 p.m.

    Utah winning 10 games this year?

    I'd be happy with 8.

  • GoUtah
    July 3, 2010 4:45 p.m.

    @BluCoug

    That must be a "Really big switch" since the TDS hasn't "thrown it" yet. When you think they'll turn it on? Should I hold my breath? Would it help if I crossed my fingers and counted to three with my eyes shut?

    I would do all those things but it's my guess the TDS has already tried it. Truth of the matter is that there is no strategy to get the TDS in a real conference. Your AD, Holmoe, has sat on his hands too long hoping for an invite. Hope isn't a strategy.

    What you can do is "rise and shout" because the TDS is OUT!

  • Archie
    July 3, 2010 4:46 p.m.

    @BluCoug | 4:22 p.m. July 3, 2010

    BYU won't be in my household so I guess that's 55M less one.

    Plan, hugh? Three weeks ago Holmoe's biggest concern was how he was going to get the grass field to grow before the season starts. You know what I'm referring to...the grass football field bought and paid for by the Utes' charity donation from 2008.

    For 3 decades BYU has been headed to the PAC-10, just ask any ardent BYU fan and you would receive an ear full. As of a month ago it became the Big-12. Now it's a great "plan." That's how the "Quest for Perfection" started.

    Best of luck. I can guarantee you though that I will not cringe when this "plan" is hatched. Doubtful I will even know about it.

    Whatever BYU ends up doing it is satisfying to know that it is nothing more than a response to the leadership provided by the University of Utah. BYU trying to play catch up...how sweet it is!

  • Casper
    July 3, 2010 4:52 p.m.

    BluCoug | 4:22 p.m. July 3, 2010

    Flip of a switch?? How long has BYU had this "switch?" And it's taken BYU how long to think of it? I can see the headlines, now..."BYU on Pay Per View."

    Desperation begets inspiration, I suppose.

  • Y Grad / Y Dad
    July 3, 2010 5:09 p.m.

    Dear CrimsonUte, thanks for responding - I feel so validated! Slow news day...

    I agree, starting with the present and working back makes sense, although it doesn't stop the debate about how far back is relevant. I'll see your first BCS bowl win and raise you an NC!

    So, one year back, 1-0. Two years back, 1-1 with a big thumping on your side. Three years back, 2-1. Four years back, 3-1 including a loss at home. There, I'm tired now. Can we change the subject.

    I still am totally fascinated with how K-Whit and crew accelerated a team two years ago from squeeking by some MWC teams to throttling BYU in the 4th quarter and on to a resounding defeat of Bama. Superior coaching!

    Yet the next year, with a team that produced 6 (I know you are tired of me saying that, but I really am fixated) NFL caliber players and somehow ended up 3rd in the MWC. Coaching? What???

    How does Utah do that?

    And after that, (some) Utah fans predicting another sweep? I'm just fascinated, that's all. And bored, too.

  • UtahUtes1
    July 3, 2010 5:20 p.m.

    GoUtah | 4:45 p.m. July 3, 2010

    "Your AD, Holmoe, has sat on his hands too long hoping for an invite. Hope isn't a strategy."

    Very well said. Therein is the difference between Holmoe and Dr. Hill. I'm on pins and needles for the moment when BYU flips the "switch." I can't wait to see what happens.

    In the interim, Utah has aligned itself with some of the most prestigious research universities in the world and their (Utah's) strategy continues to go forward...in athletics, academics, and research.

    Once again...BRAVO UTAH!! WELL DONE, INDEED!!!

  • hedgehog
    July 3, 2010 5:20 p.m.

    "Whatever BYU ends up doing it is satisfying to know that it is nothing more than a response to the leadership provided by the University of Utah"

    Can't agree more archie,

    BYu is a follower - not a leader.

  • GoUtah
    July 3, 2010 5:42 p.m.

    @Y Grad / Y Dad

    "I'll see your first BCS bowl win and raise you an NC!"

    I'll see your, so called, *NC (The PAC will provide that), and raise you two BCS invites, bowl wins, two undefeated seasons this decade AND an invite to the PAC.

    I know which decade I would rather have. However, before you raise me your *NC, please dust it off and remove any rust from it.

    *Didn't beat a single top AP 25 team in 1984 (Wow, 26 years ago?!)

  • --BYUTAH--
    July 3, 2010 5:53 p.m.

    Utes, Congrats on your move to the PAC, it really is huge for the state of Utah. I am excited for all the Utah's high school athletes that this will positively effect! Athletes in Utah can compete just as well as anyone in the country, and they will finally get the attention they deserve.

    But before you start spouting about your dominance and your superiority over the Y and the MWC, go look at your record... now at your roster. ouch right? Its funny how you love to boast about 2 seasons in your ENTIRE history. And are now boasting about the future. But there is one little thing about the future...It hasn't happened yet. Your move to the PAC will probably help, but it could go both ways.

    Lets look at the 2010 season.
    Offensive:
    2 Good linemen,
    2 decent RB's
    And an unpredictable, decent(at best) QB.
    No standout receivers

    Defensive:
    Good DL
    Weak LB Corp
    Weak Secondary

    Realistically 7-5 Season

    Your last year in the MWC will be very humbling.
    But I do give the Utes 4 years before they are making noise in the PAC!

  • --BYUTAH--
    July 3, 2010 6:02 p.m.

    Utes, Congrats on your move to the PAC, it really is huge for the state of Utah. I am excited for all the Utah's high school athletes that this will positively effect! Athletes in Utah can compete just as well as anyone in the country, and they will finally get the attention they deserve.

    But before you start spouting about your dominance and your superiority over the Y and the MWC, go look at your record... now at your roster. ouch right? Its funny how you love to boast about 2 seasons in your ENTIRE history. And are now boasting about the future. But there is one little thing about the future...It hasn't happened yet. Your move to the PAC will probably help, but it could go both ways.

    Lets look at the 2010 season.
    Offensive:
    2 Good linemen,
    2 decent RB's
    And an unpredictable, decent(at best) QB.
    No standout receivers

    Defensive:
    Good DL
    Weak LB Corp
    Weak Secondary

    Realistically 7-5 Season

    Your last year in the MWC will be very humbling.
    But I do give the Utes 4 years before they are making noise in the PAC!

  • --BYUTAH--
    July 3, 2010 6:03 p.m.

    Utes, Congrats on your move to the PAC, it really is huge for the state of Utah. I am excited for all the Utah's high school athletes that this will positively effect! Athletes in Utah can compete just as well as anyone in the country.

    But before you start spouting about your dominance and your superiority over the Y and the MWC, go look at your record... now at your roster. ouch right? Its funny how you love to boast about 2 seasons in your ENTIRE history. And are now boasting about the future. Your move to the PAC will probably help, but it could go both ways.

    Lets look at the 2010 season.
    Offensive:
    2 Good linemen,
    2 decent RB's
    And an unpredictable, decent(at best) QB.
    No standout receivers

    Defensive:
    Good DL
    Weak LB Corp
    Weak Secondary

    Your last year in the MWC will be very humbling.
    But I do give the Utes 4 years before they are making noise in the PAC!

  • UtahUtes1
    July 3, 2010 6:11 p.m.

    Y Grad / Y Dad | 5:09 p.m. July 3, 2010

    Entertaining post...a fun read.

    Utah's W/L record last year really isn't as much a mystery as you want to think. First, yeah...it was a little surprising to see six players drafted (and a couple get an opportunity after the draft) after they lost to BYU. However, pealing the onion back a layer or two, here's a few of my thoughts for your consideration:

    1) Through most of last season, Utah was very unsettled at the quarterback position (key position, initially the offense was almost anemic in terms of production)

    2) Retooling of key areas on the coaching staff (losing GA was huge though I believe Sitake is doing a great job, the initial transition, not unexpectedly, created disruption - other coaches were moved around as well

    3) Sean Smith and Paul Kruger were both a HUGE factor in the blow out of BYU in 2008 - both left early (1 and 2 years early respectively) for the NFL...tough to replace them in one year


  • UtahUtes1
    July 3, 2010 6:24 p.m.

    @Y Grad / Y Dad | 5:09 p.m. July 3, 2010 (Continued)

    Pealing the onion back another layer...

    Utah lost a number of players to the NFL draft after their initial run at the BCS in 2004. They also lost several key coaches to other programs. Whittingham started his tenure having to replace almost the entire coaching staff and many skill players his first year.

    2007 the Utes had around 50 players on the injured list. Still had a respectable season but nowhere near what it could have been.

    2008 the previously injured players were healthy and the coaching staff settled down, out of nowhere it seemed, Utah makes another run at the BCS with remarkable results.

    2009...Gary Anderson and Ludwig leave the program and Smith and Kruger leave early for the NFL (noted in my previous post).

    When Utah does well, they lose players early and coaches...causing disruption.

    I'm disappointed with your reference to the series between BYU and Utah as 3 of 4 for BYU. It is not factually incorrect but it distorts the picture. Between Mendenhall and Whittingham the series is 3 of 5 for BYU with one home loss each.

  • Tom in CA
    July 3, 2010 6:28 p.m.

    @SportsFan 2:54 - no worries I hear ya and I like your 7-5 prediction which is definitely in the realm of possibility.

    @PaulRevere 2:36 - You are right about AZ and ASU

    @UteMan 3:10 0-1 after the first week - you were refering to the Utah/Pitt game I'm sure.

    @LVCougBCSBowl - Yea, we got the internet after Utah.

    @GoUtah - I look forward to my CA schools toying with your team.

    @ProudRedUtAlum - The MWC won't be near as fun without you - ha ha ha.

  • RepresentBlue
    July 3, 2010 6:32 p.m.

    It's amusing to see Ute fans suggesting that the choice for recruits will now come down to playing on the big stage for Utah, or obscurity at BYU. Utah has been in the MWC for ten years now. Are Ute fans saying they have not played on the big stage during that time? Of course not! Both BYU and Utah have spent plenty of time in the national spotlight while playing in the MWC. Granted, the TV deal for the MWC sucks! But despite that the MWC is widely recognized by the national media as the best non-BCS conference and deserving of AQ status. Ute fans who insist that BYU will fade into obscurity are both ignorant and arrogant. In the last 30 years BYU has finished ranked in the top 25 an astounding 16 times! That is a 53% average over the last 3 decades!! They are currently one of 4 teams in D-1 that have finished the last 4 seasons ranked in the top 25, with the other 3 being Texas, Florida and USC!! For over 30 years now playing at BYU has been and will continue to be playing on the BIG STAGE!

  • Randy01
    July 3, 2010 6:37 p.m.

    It is likely that Utah will get a intermediate term boost in recruiting. Whether or not that boost is maintained long term is highly dependent on how well they play in the PAC12. A very strong team in the MWC will recruit on par with or slightly better than the bottom half of the BCS leagues.

    The slate of opponents that Utah has to play in the PAC12 will be stronger then they currently face. It is always tough to win more than 9 games, in any conference and recruiting strength pays off as the schedule wears on. There haven't been many undefeated national champions that didn't have one or two squeakers.

    If Utah can establish itself in the top half of the PAC12 recruiting will likely improve over the long haul. Will this mean that they win every game they play against BYU - no, but the winning percentage may tilt in their favor.

    As far as BYU having a plan, I find that highly unlikely. It is my opinion that the football program is already as good as the brethren want it to be. BYU has a mission and it isn't based on football.

  • VegasCoug
    July 3, 2010 6:42 p.m.

    First of all, in recent years the Utes have moved further and further away from focusing on Utah high school players as they have gone more and more towards mining out talent in California and Texas (i.e. their 2010 class consisted of 8 California kids and 8 Texas kids)

    Now, let's be realistic for a second here and bring these new "Utah BCS egos" a reality check...

    Utah is not going to start suddenly landing a bunch of 4 and 5 star kids.

    To do so, they will have to out-recruit USC, UCLA, Oregon, Cal, Arizona State, etc for the California blue chips and out-recruit Texas, Oklahoma, Texas A&M, etc for the Texas Blue chips. That's not going to happen with any kind of regularity folks.

    IT'S STILL SALT LAKE CITY. (Just ask the Utah Jazz how easy it is to get blue chip NBA free agents to come to Salt Lake).

    Utah recruiting in the Pac 10 will be akin to Oregon State where you must find 2 and 3 star kids that get overlooked by the bigger Cali and Texas programs, something Utah has already been doing.

  • VegasCoug
    July 3, 2010 6:59 p.m.

    @GoUtah

    I'll see your best decade in school history and raise you 3 decades. What do I mean? Utah's very best decade, the 2000's, yielded 4 top 25 seasons. Yes, you have the 2 BCS games and those are huge, can't say anything bad about those seasons, but the entire decade's work consists of 4 top 25 seasons.

    Meanwhile, BYU just completed it's 3rd consecutive decade of having at least 5 ranked seasons!! (They had 6 ranked seasons in the 80's, 5 ranked seasons in the 90's, and 5 ranked seasons in the 2000's).

    So, while Utah is still working on having their first decade of producing 5 or more ranked campaigns, BYU just completed it's 3RD DECADE IN A ROW of doing such.

    You see, it's really just a simple case of CONSISTENT, LONG-TERM EXCELLENCE versus a "johnny come lately" occasional output of excellence.

    ALL TIME RANKED SEASONS
    BYU = 19 top 25 finishes
    Utah = a measly 5 top 25 finishes (94,03,04,08,09 -- check the Utah media guide if you don't believe me)

    19 to 5... HMMMMMM, that's close....

  • coachcarter
    July 3, 2010 7:00 p.m.

    the utes are going to do well this year, at MOST lose 2 or 3 games. Wynn is a stud and will continue to develop into an awesome qb just in time for PAC-12 opponents week after week.

    can any byu fan answer me how many times in school history they have gone undefeated? oh yeah, once.

    utah has done it 6 times.... enough said

  • brettski
    July 3, 2010 7:04 p.m.

    Whittingham can recruit me if he wants. I'll play

  • Archie
    July 3, 2010 7:29 p.m.

    VegasCoug | 6:42 p.m. July 3, 2010

    Utah is not going to start suddenly landing a bunch of 4 and 5 star kids...IT'S STILL SALT LAKE CITY."

    What an observation. Salt Lake City is one heck of a better draw than Provo. Is that why BYU can't get 4 and 5 star kids??

  • Howard S.
    July 3, 2010 7:36 p.m.


    Dick says... "This will be very interesting to witness as things unwind in the days to come."

    Unwind?

    Interesting choice of words. I'm sure Dick and his blue goggled readers would love to see things "unwind" for the Ute program, but they will be sorely disappointed.

    The Utes in the PAC 10 will continue to get better and stronger while the Cougars languish in the MWC.

  • Archie
    July 3, 2010 7:37 p.m.

    Well now VegasCoug...consistency has to start somewhere and it would appear to that the Utes are off to a great "consistent" start. It doesn't take a genus to see that the trend for the Utes is increasing.

    "ALL TIME RANKED SEASONS
    BYU = 19 top 25 finishes
    Utah = a measly 5 top 25 finishes"

    Based on the nod Utah received from the PAC this month, it is clear that 2 undefeated seasons this decade trumps 1 undefeated season a quarter century ago. In addition, top 25 finishes appears to be important only to the BYU collective. Sorry.

  • Uteology
    July 3, 2010 8:02 p.m.

    SportsFan | 2:54 p.m. July 3, 2010
    Tom in CA

    Pay no attention to the personal attacks from Utah fans; they're famous for using personal attacks instead of real arguments in their rebuttals.

    --------------

    You actually want us to refute this?

    “Right after Utah is crushed by TCU and Notre Dame it will be:

    BYU 51
    Utah 17”


    Sorry son but you don’t refute comedy you just laugh at the individual telling the joke.

  • Uteology
    July 3, 2010 8:05 p.m.

    FAYM | 2:59 a.m. July 3, 2010

    "They'll lose in the PAC because of coaching (Kyle is good, not great), but the players on the field will be the level of BYU, just not the heart that the BYU player shows (they come through at moneytime)."

    -------------------

    I pray that our players are at the curret "level of BYU". If so losing to PAC-10 teams will be

  • VegasCoug
    July 3, 2010 8:11 p.m.

    @ Archie

    1. If you read my post more carefully, I did not compare Salt Lake City to Provo. I was comparing Salt Lake City to the Pac 10 and Big 12 territories that the mighty BCS Utes will have to beat out in recruiting wars. How about you read my post again, thanks.

    2. BYU can't get 4 and 5 star kids? Really... that is a curious thing to assert since BYU signed four 4 star kids, and one 5 star kid in the class of 2010 and has signed 18 4 star recruits since 2006. Provo has proven to be a very attractive destination for Blue Chip LDS athletes for decades now.

    3. "top 25 finishes appears to be important only to the BYU collective". Wow, just... wow. Only the insecurity of knowing your Utes are heavily out-numbered in this statistic would produce such a silly comeback.

    4. Nice try on the classic Yewtie attempt at BYU marginalization by using the old "all you have is '84" schtick. That's a good comeback to my facts that BYU just completed a 3rd straight decade of 5+ ranked seasons per decade.

  • Uteology
    July 3, 2010 8:11 p.m.

    FAYM | 2:59 a.m. July 3, 2010

    "They'll lose in the PAC because of coaching (Kyle is good, not great), but the players on the field will be the level of BYU, just not the heart that the BYU player shows (they come through at moneytime)."

    ----------------
    I pray that Utah's talent does not fall to the current "level of BYU" players. Who are proven that they can barley compete with PAC-10 5th place teams: 3-2 in Vegas.

    If KW starts producing BYU level of players please fire him:

    Under KW 19 players drafted ... #2 & #4
    vs.
    Under Bronco 9 ... Vegas


    Look Utah will never be USC (45 players drafted) if they will play like Arizona if they continue what BYU is doing BUT will play like Oregon (21 players drafted) if they continue doing what KW is right now.


    Go UTES!!!

  • Uteology
    July 3, 2010 8:25 p.m.

    @VegasCoug | 6:59 p.m. July 3, 2010

    Beating cream puffs like Boise to get ranked and then choke against ranked teams is not impressive outside of Provostan.

    2 wins against final ranked team in Bowl games in entire history.

    2 wins in the MWC against final ranked teams.

    So rise and shout but no one cares that the last time you played in January was when you were playing in the WAC.

    12-0 and 13-0 puts all your combined last five ranked teams to a shame.

    I do have to give props to your 1996 team, because they actually did something in January.

  • Lifelong Republican
    July 3, 2010 8:27 p.m.

    So happy to have Utah out of the MWC.

    Good riddance and good luck.

    Whittingham will need it but Boylen has no chance.

    Even in one of the weakest D1 basketball leagues (see Pac-10 results for 2010).

  • Tom in CA
    July 3, 2010 8:33 p.m.

    @Uteology 8:02

    OK Dad.

  • Uteology
    July 3, 2010 8:35 p.m.

    BluCoug | 4:22 p.m. July 3, 2010
    @ GoUtah

    All it will take is a flip of the switch and BYU will be in 55 million household globally.

    ---------------

    I think you have a better chance of getting 55 million people to spare 2 minutes in their home for a missionary then to watch BYU football.

  • Mountainman56
    July 3, 2010 8:41 p.m.

    Having lived in 5 of the 9 MWC cities and followed all 9 schools for over 40 years, I think I have a pretty good feel for the situation. Here's how I see the recruiting situation for Utah in the PAC 12: 1)Recruiting in Utah doesn't change-top in state recruits will still be loyal to Utah or BYU for the same reasons they always have been. 2)Recruiting non-LDS kids in PAC 12 territory also doesn't change-Utah will still get 2nd tier kids who might get offered by 2nd tier PAC 12 schools but still won't be able to compete straight up with the conference elite. 3)Recruiting LDS kids in PAC12 territory-this is where Utah gains an advantage. LDS kids growing up in L.A., No. Cal., Seattle, Phoenix etc. will now get to watch Utah on a regular basis both live and on TV and could very well look at Utah as an alternative to BYU. They and their families might still feel that they are getting some of the benefits of an LDS college environment and they'll get to see them play a lot more often.

  • EdGrady
    July 3, 2010 8:50 p.m.

    Just think of the possibilities: maybe now the utes can recruit somebody that can actually cover a BYU tight end.

  • Archie
    July 3, 2010 9:05 p.m.

    @VegasCoug | 8:11 p.m. July 3, 2010

    "That's a good comeback to my facts that BYU just completed a 3rd straight decade of 5+ ranked seasons per decade."

    Again, it is abundantly clear that no one but the BYU collective is impressed with that statistic. THE PAC DOES NOT WANT BYU. Sorry!

    btw...4 & 5 star kids in Provo, eh? For decades, no less?? Congrats to BYU on its BCS wins. Oh, wait...oops.

  • NewMexicoUte
    July 3, 2010 9:08 p.m.

    Re: Vegas Coug,
    Your just another bitter BYU fan. Why don't you go post on the BYU blog and take all your hate and jealousy over there??? Oh I forgot, there isn't anything worth posting there. I know why you post here? You want to be part of all the excitement on the Utah blogs! You want to be associated with winners! Now, you can respond with smack talk and post BYU's stats from the past 4 years to the past century and all to prove your meaningless point, because all I'll do is laugh at you for the joke that you are because you can't come with new material. BTW, correct me if I am wrong because I kind of found out what Ute fans refer to the term "Zoobie", but does that mean a team that south of the Salt Lake Zoo? If so, that is messed up and wouldn't go that far as to put a BYU fan down like that. I am not that dirty, but I am sure there are others out there who are. Well have fun Vegas Coug, nice blogging you. Go UTES!!!

  • Archie
    July 3, 2010 9:10 p.m.

    @EdGrady | 8:50 p.m. July 3, 2010

    That's really funny Mr. Ed. Funnier still is that BYUs entire defense let a true freshman qb with 3 D1 games experience take BYU into overtime...at BYU no less.

  • VegasCoug
    July 3, 2010 9:53 p.m.

    @Archie

    "btw...4 & 5 star kids in Provo, eh? For decades, no less?? Congrats to BYU on its BCS wins. Oh, wait...oops."

    Once again, all the Yewties have to say now is "we have 2 BCS wins". Ute fans have become what they accused BYU fans of all of those years, complaining that Cougar fans would always justify themselves with "1984". "2 BCS wins" is the new version of "1984".

    Your 2 BCS wins were fantastic seasons, no doubt. But what other substantial accomplishments do you have in your program's history to use??? 5 ranked seasons in your entire program's history isn't much to work with, so I understand the incessant "2 BCS wins" talk.

    I have more... how about this one...

    BYU has EIGHT national award winners (4 Davey O'briens, 2 Outlands, 1 doak walker, 1 heisman)

    Utah has ZERO national award winners.

    Rationalize that one away now with "2 BCS wins"... ready, go!

  • owlmaster2
    July 3, 2010 10:04 p.m.

    When will da bYu fans stop crying??
    When will Harmon quit playing devils advocate?
    This article could and should have been answered with just two words... "OF COURSE".

    bYu should be thrilled.. This change gives all ya'll a better shot at the neglected Utah preps.

    Try being adults cougs and let the Utes do their thing.
    Dry your tears... buy some red shirts and if da cougs have a good year and the Utes have a bad year, we'll see you in Vegas.

  • Archie
    July 3, 2010 10:12 p.m.

    @VegasCoug | 9:53 p.m. July 3, 2010

    "BYU has EIGHT national award winners (4 Davey O'briens, 2 Outlands, 1 doak walker, 1 heisman)"

    Again, it is abundantly clear that no one but the BYU collective (possibly only you on this one, Mr. Vegas) is impressed with that statistic. THE PAC DOES NOT WANT BYU. Sorry!

  • VegasCoug
    July 3, 2010 10:53 p.m.

    Archie, I absolutely love your dismissing of BYU's nationally prominent accomplishments such as national award winners with the tired line "only BYU collective cares". Is that really your the best you can come up with? Laughable.

    You're right, they give out national awards every year because nobody cares. You're right, the college football media, coaches, etc are all just wasting their time with silly things such as national polls and national awards because nobody cares but "the BYU collective". Wow man, wow....

    "THE PAC DOES NOT WANT BYU" This is a true statement, but the reasoning behind it has nothing to do with BYU's athletic prowess and everything to do with their private religious school affiliation. BYU has a much larger fan base, larger stadium with bigger attendance figures both at home and on the road, a better overall athletic dept (25 conf championships in last 3 years to Utah's 8; deseret duel was a land slide this year, etc) but the Pac doesn't want the "no sunday-playing, prop 8 school" and that's fine.

    You really think the Pac 10 invited Utah just because of their "2 BCS wins"? LOL!

  • chuckie
    July 3, 2010 11:10 p.m.

    Archie:
    "THE PAC DOES NOT WANT BYU. Sorry!"

    It takes a unanimous decision to add a team to the Left-Coast Liberal PAC.

    Did you really think that the Stanfords and Berkleys would allow an LDS sponsored church school in the PAC after their involvement with Prop-187? Can you imagine the prostesting from the Left-Coast had that happened? If it was all about football, then BYU would have stood up and dragged the Utes to the PAC with them, again... It's a no-brainer.

    BYU fans understand. Can you?

    BYU has been a top 25 team four years in a row from the MWC. BYU has NEVER needed the Utes, but have carried them until 2004.

    Utah would not have been in the WAC or MWC without BYU. Now say thank you-- and please, be on your way.

    Baby-steps...

  • Uteology
    July 3, 2010 11:17 p.m.

    Rationalize that one away now with "2 BCS wins"... ready, go!

    ---------

    Yaawn!! Utah never printed Heisman and Dooky awards but BYU fans printed "Perfection" t-shirts for Quest Utah accomished.

  • GoUtah
    July 3, 2010 11:38 p.m.

    @VegasCoug

    Let’s look at the big picture. Here are some stats for you. Please refute these facts:

    First: Utah's dominance in the rivalry is: 53 to 34. Scoreboard. I know, for your convenience, you'll want to go back only 30 years. That's far too convenient for the TDS fans.

    Second: Utah is now a member of the PAC.

    Third: The TDS is a "mid-major" with no chance to play for the title. True, you have a *NC from
    three decades prior. But that means nothing, anymore. . .

    Forth: When you sing the "Rise and Shout" song, put a little emphasis on the "Out" part. Because the TDS is truly out.

    *Didn't beat a single top AP 25 ranked team in 1984. Oh well . . .

  • Archie
    July 4, 2010 12:00 a.m.

    VegasCoug | 10:53 p.m. July 3, 2010
    chuckie | 11:10 p.m. July 3, 2010

    "You really think the Pac 10 invited Utah just because of their "2 BCS wins"?"

    No. I think the PAC invited Utah because they meet the criteria clearly laid out:

    1) Athletics
    2) Academics
    3) Research

    It just doesn't get any more clear than that gentlemen.

    While BYU was busy over the last four decades building a big stadium, baseball field, track facility, etc., etc., the University of Utah has built a research base that meets the standards of the PAC which has in turn, strengthened academics. More recently, athletics has grown and improved under the guidance of Dr. Hill.

    From an earlier post: "today, Utah has aligned itself with some of the most prestigious research universities in the world and their (Utah's) strategy continues to go forward...in athletics, academics, and research."

    You're trying to fit the PAC into the BYU model instead of looking at the gap between BYU and what the PAC wants. Bottom line...the bar is too high for BYU.

    Take a Valium and go to bed.

  • owlmaster2
    July 4, 2010 12:15 a.m.

    Now the bYu cougs pull the religion card out huh???

    The big bad PAC won't take us cause we are religious and they are so liberal... I've always been told that Jesus was a Liberal...

    Dry your eyes VegasCoug and try to get some sleep-- the Pac 10 doesn't want the cougs.

  • RepresentBlue
    July 4, 2010 12:21 a.m.

    Funny to read these comebacks by Ute fans like GoUtah and Archie. Their only responses to hard facts are "2 BCS wins" and "Utah is now a member of the PAC". Some of these Ute fans would even have us believe that nobody but the "BYU collective", whatever that means, cares about national awards and top 25 rankings. WOW! And they say BYU fans live in a bubble! Utah has become a great football program in the last decade. Nobody here is disputing that. Utah fits in well with the PAC, and got the invite. Congratulations. BYU fits in poorly and got left behind in the MWC. Life goes on. The whole college football world doesn't revolve around the PAC. In fact, it wasn't that long ago that Ute fans were boasting that the MWC was stronger than the PAC-10. BYU will continue its tradition of excellence in the MWC, and continue to go head to head with BCS programs on the field and in recruiting. For example, the BYU class of 2010 was ranked in the top 25 of recruiting classes by ESPN. Does that count as outside the "BYU collective"?

  • EdGrady
    July 4, 2010 12:23 a.m.

    Does the Pac-10 still play football? I thought they dropped it. Let's face it - the Pac-10 is a softball conference.

  • RepresentBlue
    July 4, 2010 12:44 a.m.

    Last year Ute fans were ranting and raving about how unfair the BCS system is. Now they are drinking the kool-aid, and thumbing their nose at the rest of the non-AQ programs. It's gonna be fun to watch them play their last season in the MWC. They are going to be wearing a huge target and will get everyone's best shot. Ute fans think they have outgrown the MWC but I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see them get humbled by several MWC opponents in their last season in the conference.

  • VegasCoug
    July 4, 2010 12:55 a.m.

    @GoUtah

    * Congrats on racking up a bunch of wins against BY Academy. I know you guys love to brag about wins from the leather helmets era but come on, let's talk modern era (since 1970 BYU leads the series 26-14) but hey, I'll readily admit the head to head match up has been dead even since 1990 (10 to 10) and that's what has made the Holy War such a great rivalry in recent history.

    * I guess joining the Pac makes Utah college football royalty though! Oh, that's right, Colorado joined the Pac too. Colorado is awesome!

    But Pac inclusion means they're suddenly "major". My how the hypocrisy astounds! I seem to remember Ute fans screaming about how overrated the Pac and the BCS is. Guess BYU will have to settle for it's much larger "mid-major" fan base and larger "mid-major" stadium. The Marriott sure is a "mid-major" arena!

    * Can Ute fans please bring better game then the "1984" stuff? It's soooo tired. BYU has finished ranked in the top 10 FOUR TIMES, not just 1984.

    "2 BCS wins" is coming... I can feel it...

  • chuckie
    July 4, 2010 1:20 a.m.

    @GoUtah | 11:38 p.m.

    "Utah's dominance in the rivalry is: 53 to 34. Scoreboard."

    Scoreboard? OK, for fun, from 1972-1992 the record was 18-2... 3-4 past years. Let's be selective, OK? The only scoreboard that counts is last year.

    Scoreboard? Give me a break... The last time Utah's football team was on the field, they were representing the MWC in third place.
    ---
    "Utah is now a member of the PAC."

    Once again, The last time Utah's football team was on the field, they were representing the MWC in third place.

    ---
    "True, you have a *NC from
    three decades prior. But that means nothing, anymore. . ."

    Unless you look at the record books. You put the astrisk there.
    ---

    *Didn't beat a single top AP 25 ranked team in 1984."

    The undefeated Cougars opened the season with a 20-14 victory over Pitt, ranked #3 in the nation at the time and finished by defeating the Michigan Wolverines, who had been ranked as high as #2 during the season.

    ---

    Utah's future is crimson, like a frog in a blender... The PAC will grind you up...

    Scoreboard? BYU owns Utah...

    PAC or not.

  • Uteology
    July 4, 2010 2:00 a.m.

    * Can Ute fans please bring better game then the "1984" stuff? It's soooo tired. BYU has finished ranked in the top 10 FOUR TIMES, not just 1984.

    ------

    Yes and again in he WAC not once in the MWC.

    Utah finished in the top 10 when the WAC was the strongest (1994 3 ranked teams) and in the MWC (in 2008).

    1984 title was the icing on the cake, the cake was the schedule.

  • Veritas Aequitas
    July 4, 2010 2:02 a.m.

    May I thow out a few things for the Utah fans to consider as they make their arguments?

    First: We should form beliefs, however, not on the basis of what we would like to be true, but on the basis of what the evidence supports.

    BYU won a National Championship. (Naval Vet, grasp this). BYU beat Utah last year. The last time Utah's football team was on the field, they were representing the MWC in third place.

    Can we agree these are facts, regardless of what Utah Fans would like to be true?

    ---

    Second: Is Utah in the PAC because they won two BCS Games? Fallacies of presumption begin with a false (or at least unwarranted) assumption, and so fail to establish their conclusion. If this is the reason, did Colorado also win two BCS Bowl games?

    Colorado did split the NC in 1990, yet that year Colorado had a loss, which Georgia Tech did not, and Colorado's "unfair" win in the Fifth Down Game against Missouri. If there is any team that deserves an *, wouldn't it be Colorado? Colorado has no real NC and no BCS wins.

    Was there really any criteria clearly laid out?


  • Veritas Aequitas
    July 4, 2010 2:12 a.m.

    So the Question Remains:
    Will move to Pac-10 affect Utah Utes recruiting?
    ---

    If the Ute coaching staff can convince that a team that finished third in the MWC has a shot of going to the Rosebowl, then it should help the Utes.

    If the teams recruiting against them can show that a team that finished third in the MWC will probably be embarassed in PAC play, on National TV, in front of their parents and friends, and let's not even bring up basketball, volleyball, womens tennis, track and field, etc... then the Utes will be hurting.

    Will the Utes be able to pick up some castoffs from the proven PAC teams, who mwere not offered a scholie because of grades or behavior... probably... Adding confusion and distractions to a team that desperately needs to win.

    Will the Utes be able to compete in the MWC next year, or the PAC in 2011?

    What was said earlier? Frog in a blender... I agree with hedgehog, the Utes future is crimson.

  • Uteology
    July 4, 2010 2:37 a.m.

    chuckie | 1:20 a.m. July 4, 2010

    *Didn't beat a single top AP 25 ranked team in 1984."

    The undefeated Cougars opened the season with a 20-14 victory over Pitt, ranked #3 in the nation at the time and finished by defeating the Michigan Wolverines, who had been ranked as high as #2 during the season.

    --------------

    :) Please tell me this was your attempt to make us laugh. Cuckie my confused Zoob please tell me you did not actually take the time to "research" those stats?

    My friend the rankings only matter at the END of the season, otherwise BYU would have 40 national titles.

  • PennCoug
    July 4, 2010 2:54 a.m.

    I read some posts earlier about how BYU has trouble landing quality recruits (4 and 5 Star) and I thought I would do some research and see how BYU has done with recruiting talent since Bronco took over. And then I researched Utah's recruiting base as well with KWhitt. Here is what I got.

    Scout.com--Since 2005
    BYU:
    5*-1
    4*-19
    3*-57
    Utah:
    5*-0
    4*-9
    3*-43

    Rivals.com--Since 2005
    BYU:
    5*-0
    4*-9
    3*-64
    Utah:
    5*-1
    4*-9
    3*69

    ESPN.com--Since 2006
    BYU:
    4*-30 (75%-80%)
    3*-30 (70%-75%)
    Utah:
    4*-23 (75%-80%)
    3*-27 (70%-75%)

    Recruiting has gotten steadily better for both schools and will only get better.

    Moral of the story?
    5*, 4*, 3*, It doesnt matter.

    BYU has been as consistent as any team in the country, without 5* recruits! Having blue-chips on the roster does not win games (See Utah Vs Bama/ BYU vs OU), its all about building on talent. Which both programs have done as well as any program in the country!

  • Uteology
    July 4, 2010 3:20 a.m.

    @chuckie

    From Stewart Mandel (SI)

    Twenty-five years ago BYU hijacked college football. The sport has been fighting back ever since.

    Twenty-five years later, BYU remains the last school from outside of today's major conferences to win a national title. Today, coaches and players from that triumphant '84 BYU team wonder whether it will ever happen again.

    "With the way the [BCS] system is now, there's no question we wouldn't have been No. 1," said BYU quarterback Robbie Bosco. "We probably would have gone to a better bowl, and that would have been great, but there would have been four teams higher than us in the polls."

    That's essentially what happened [in 2008] to BYU's rival, Utah, which finished its regular season unbeaten but never rose higher than No. 6 in the BCS standings.

  • MOUte
    July 4, 2010 6:24 a.m.

    Veritas Aequitas | 2:12 a.m. July 4, 2010

    "If the Ute coaching staff can convince that a team that finished third in the MWC has a shot of going to the Rosebowl, then it should help the Utes."

    You speak of 3rd place in the MWC as though it is a poor performance and an embarrassing result. Yet the Utes had 10 wins and were ranked in the top 25...the pinnacle of success according to BYU fans. So I have to ask what your point is.

    The Utes will compete well in the PAC. Frequent championships? No, but the Utes have proven to deliver beyond expectations when odds are against them. I would not count them out.

  • Utah'95
    July 4, 2010 7:09 a.m.

    chuckie,

    Do you understand that beating top 5 teams in September doesn't hold any water unless those teams FINISH the season ranked highly?

    The 1984 Pitt game was only significant because it allowed BYU to jump dramatically in the polls, and the eyes of the nation. But Pitt finished the season 3-8, so winning that game isn't worth bragging about.

    The Holiday Bowl win, which allowed BYU to be crowned National Champions (like it or not, Utah fans, the 1984 Cougars were the National Champions) was over a 6-5 Michigan team. It doesn't matter that the Wolverines were ranked highly earlier in the season, what matters was that BYU was the sixth team to beat them that season.

    Last season's win over Oklahoma was impressive, but it would have been more impressive if Oklahoma hadn't gone on to lose four more games and finish outside of the Top 25.

    Utah's win at the Big House seemed important at the time, but then we learned that storied Michigan wasn't any good in 2008.

    I admire your enthusiasm, but don't ignore facts.

  • Uteology
    July 4, 2010 7:15 a.m.

    This is to the intelligent people who downplay KWs accomplishments:

    Tom Dienhart

    They don't work in college football's biggest houses, but they still are among the sport's coaching giants.

    1. Kyle Whittingham, Utah
    Until the Utes leave for the Pac-10, he'll be the leader on this list. Urban Meyer made the Utes relevant when Utah became the first "BCS buster" in 2004. But Whittingham, 50, has kept Utah at an elite level, which is an even more impressive feat. Whittingham is 47-17 in five seasons in Salt Lake City and reportedly turned down the Tennessee job last offseason.


    See no one cares about coaches and talent going 3-2 Vegas. Otherwise SEC would have at least come calling like they have for TWO Ute coaches.

    This is what PAC-10 opens up for KW:
    Keith McGill grew up following the Pac-10. The native Californian played youth football in the shadows of USC and UCLA and had plans to settle on a school with strong west coast ties. After taking an unofficial trip to Salt Lake City this past weekend, the search [is] over for the junior college stud.

  • SportsFan
    July 4, 2010 10:03 a.m.

    Kyle Whittingham has finished BEHIND Bronco Mendenhall in the MWC FOUR of the FIVE seasons they've been head coaches and Kyle has lost twice as many MWC games (12) as Bronco (6).

    During the Bronco/Kyle era:

    Top 25 finishes
    Bronco 4
    Kyle 2

    10+ win seasons
    Bronco 4
    Kyle 2

    MWC Championships
    Bronco 2
    Kyle 1

    Head-to-Head
    Bronco 3
    Kyle 2

    BCS Wins
    Bronco 0
    Kyle 1

    Bronco has better overall and conference records and has proven to be more consistent; four Top 25 finishes in the last four years; four straight 10+ win seasons; wins in 3 of the last 4 games against the Utes.

    It a good thing Kyle is moving to the PAC 12 because it's only a matter of time before Bronco starts adding BCS wins to his resume and thereby surpasses Kyle in only category Kyle still has a lead.

    With Boise State joining the MWC in 2011, Utah most likely would have dropped to regular 4th place finishes in the MWC.



  • Otis Spurlock
    July 4, 2010 10:11 a.m.

    Utah going to a BCS Bowl in 2004 and BYU never going to a BCS Bowl, awesome!

    Utah going to a BCS Bowl in 2008 and BYU never going to a BCS Bowl, sweet!

    Utah being invited to the PAC 12 and BYU being stuck in the MWC, PRICELESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • hedgehog
    July 4, 2010 10:24 a.m.

    Does BYU even play football anymore? I mean, every article and posts is all about the Utes.

    Whats interesting is that kewgs find it more relevant to comment on the Utes 2011 season then actually focusing on the kewgars THIS SEASON.

    Umm, you do understand that most prejections have the kewgs ending up 4th in the confernce, right? You're punching it out with Wyoming - you know that - right?

  • GoUtah
    July 4, 2010 10:30 a.m.

    @chuckie (nice name)

    Once again you prove yourself. It's too convenient for you to only look at the past year. Let's look at the past 8 years. Yes, that works for Utah fans too. So, you have to look at the entire series. Like it or not, Utah owns the TDS. 53 - 34, Scoreboard.

    You said, "The undefeated Cougars opened the season with a 20-14 victory over Pitt, ranked #3 in the nation at the time and finished by defeating the Michigan Wolverines, who had been ranked as high as #2 during the season."

    This is a laugh. Wow! Pitt was ranked #3 and finished where? Michigan #2 and finished where? Neither team, along with any others the TDS played, ended up in the AP TOP 25 at the end of the season. Your *NC is meaningless. The system was broke = a broken *NC for the TDS.

    *Didn't beat a single top AP 25 team at the season's finale.

  • RepresentBlue
    July 4, 2010 10:32 a.m.

    @Uteology

    "Twenty-five years ago BYU hijacked college football. The sport has been fighting back ever since."

    LOL! BYU hijacked college football?!?! That is the STUPIDEST quote I have seen in a while, and just because it comes from a national commentator doesn't make it any less stupid. Explain exactly how BYU managed to accomplish this insidious hijacking? Did Lavell Edwards and Robbie Bosco storm the NCAA office wearing ski masks and steal the NC trophy? LOL! Of course not. They were crowned the national champions the same way every team was crowned before the BCS came into existence: by the polls. In 1984 BYU was the consensus #1 in every major college football poll including the AP and Coaches polls. The Cougars did not declare themselves champions. They were declared to be the champions by hundreds of college football coaches and media persons that year. And as for playing a 6-6 Michigan in the Holiday Bowl; they had to play in that bowl because they were contractually required to do. For the record, both Washington and Oklahoma were extended invitations to play BYU in the Holiday Bowl but both declined.

  • RepresentBlue
    July 4, 2010 10:51 a.m.

    Also don't forget Ute fans, BYU won more games in 1996 (14) than Utah did in 2008, and finished the season ranked #5 after an impressive win over Kansas State (who finished ranked #17) in the Cotton Bowl, which in the 90's was just as prestigious as the Sugar Bowl. So while BYU does not have a "BCS" bowl appearance on its resume, yet, it does have a long list of achievements that far surpass those of the Utes when you add them all up, including two top 5 seasons, 4 top 10, and 19 top 25 seasons. Utah is still working on their 6th top 25 season in their program's history. Add to that 8 national awards including the Heisman, Doak Walker, Outland and Davey O'Brien trophies. Utah is still working on its first national award. Good luck with that. BYU has been there, done that.

  • Mid-Major Cougars
    July 4, 2010 10:56 a.m.

    @RepresentBlue...

    I think he meant that BYU argued with their unbeaten records they deserved NC. Although BYU did not play any worthy opponents that year and ended the year by beating mediocre 6-5 Michigan.

    Unlike 2008 Utah with wins over top-15: TCU, BYU, OSU and Alabama.

    Oh, well, that is why 1984 is still regarded as alleged NC.
    And 2008 (& 2004) helped Utah to be come BCS AQ/Major instead of mid-major.

    Ciao!!!

  • Mid-Major Cougars
    July 4, 2010 11:05 a.m.

    @RepresentBlue...declared to be the champions by hundreds of college football coaches and media persons that year...

    1) Out of sympathy for Lavel who had several nice seasons in the years before 1984.
    2) There was no clear rules on how to vote for NC, therefore, see no. 1 above.
    3) "...both Washington and Oklahoma declined Holiday Bowl..." because, simple fact was that they both did not think beating BYU would prove anything for their season. And the payout of the Orange Bowl was much HIGHER than Holiday Bowl --especially Washing. Look at what Holiday Bowl could finally invite to play BYU --the lowly 6-5 Michigan.

  • Rock Of The Marne
    July 4, 2010 11:10 a.m.

    My question is why are so many TDS fans ranting and raving with posts regarding a story about Utah? My guess is jealousy and a newly heightened sense of inferiority; It's okay little brother, you'll be okay.

  • Skierelmo
    July 4, 2010 11:43 a.m.

    Two thing....

    1. Most of the best players either of our programs have ever had were two star recruits (A. Smith, M. Hall, P. Krueger... etc..) Now heres where recruiting benefits.... We won our two BCS games with a bunch of "Sub-Par" guys who got coached into studs... if we get a few more studs to start and coach them up???? The sky's the limit!!!

    2. Stats are made to be manipulated.... Y fans say We won last year... Utes say with a team full of your best players ever against our re-building team with a freshman... we've addressed the NC at neaseum.... both teams see things the way they want to... get over it!!

  • RepresentBlue
    July 4, 2010 12:32 p.m.

    @MidMajorCougars,

    There is nothing "alleged" about BYU's NC. Its in the NCAA record books. Look it up. There is no asterisk next to it either. And your theory that BYU was voted the consensus #1 in all major polls out of "sympathy for Lavell" is laughable. Ute fans will never admit that BYU has a legitimate NC because that means admitting they are still little brother.

  • chuckie
    July 4, 2010 1:25 p.m.

    Rock Of The Marne | 11:10 a.m. July 4, 2010
    "My question is why are so many TDS fans ranting and raving with posts regarding a story about Utah?"

    If you read the posts, these are discussions on a newspaper comment board, not rants and raves. Read.

    ---

    Uteology | 2:37 a.m. July 4, 2010
    "My friend the rankings only matter at the END of the season, otherwise BYU would have 40 national titles."

    Only when Utah fans choose to form beliefs not on the basis of what they would like to be true, but on the basis of what the evidence supports.

    BYU did open the 1984 season with a 20-14 victory over Pitt, ranked #3 in the nation at the time. Period.

    Games played against ranked teams are how they are measured at the time of the game. If "you" conviently choose to disregard those rankings, that is your choice, but because that strategy helps your 1984 argument, you can't thrust it on the rest college sports.

    In your world, a game played in October has no meaning until the final rankings come out at the end of the season?

  • Bluto
    July 4, 2010 1:32 p.m.

    Watching and hearing Utah fans feeling an "Elitist Sense of Superiority" over their BYU cousins is comical.

    And why U so giddy?

    Because you were invited to an Athletic Conference?

    One, which is part of an Illegal-Anti-Trust-Caste- System, that just a few short weeks ago every Ute and Coach Whittingham himself were condemning for it's phony segrationist policies.

    Didn't take Whit long, did it?
    You're just all that now, eh Kyle?

    Your neck is on the line. Alot of popping off about the MWC stigma, thus perpetuating the myth. Good job.

    Let's see your recruiting with 6-6, 7-5 seasons and out of the polls. Then what? How's Washington State done with the phony BCS superiority?

    Memo to Uteville:

    1-You were invited because you are a "The Large State School" as is Colorado. Follows the Pac-10 model.

    2-You have wonderful Research facilities and a great Medical Center, paid for by the taxpayers of Utah.

    3-Liberal/Progressive environment.

    4-YOU'RE NOT A "PRIVATE-RELIGIOUS" SCHOOL

    Utah's "Imagined Athletic Prowess" or Colorado's inept Athletics "Irrelevant"!

    Ask ESPN who is the "Legacy Football Program" in Utah.

  • Veritas Aequitas
    July 4, 2010 1:39 p.m.

    MOUte | 6:24 a.m.
    "Veritas Aequitas | 2:12 a.m. July 4, 2010

    "If the Ute coaching staff can convince that a team that finished third in the MWC has a shot of going to the Rosebowl, then it should help the Utes."

    You speak of 3rd place in the MWC as though it is a poor performance and an embarrassing result."

    I did.

    For a team that is moving into the PAC for the roses, their fanbase is ridiculing the "mid-major" as being weak, and all they can muster is a third place finish... yes, I guess I amd characterizing that performance and result as embarassing.

    If what you say is true, that a third place performance in the MWC is solid, then you seem to be characterizing the MWC as a solid conference, and a conference that a decent team can finish ranked in third place.

    If what you say is true, the MWC is a good conference, regardless of BCS affiliation.

    Utah fans are basing everything right now on BCS affiliation, that same affiliation that was evil just a month ago.

    If the MWC is strong, how is recruiting affected?

    Hence the story and posts.

  • chuckie
    July 4, 2010 1:46 p.m.

    GoUtah | 10:30 a.m. July 4, 2010
    "@chuckie (nice name)
    Once again you prove yourself. It's too convenient for you to only look at the past year."

    Dude, your ignorance of sports shines through. You claim it is "too convenient" to only look at the last year to claim scoreboard.

    Ummmm... Are you now trying to redefine the term "scoreboard"?

    LOL.
    ---

    Oh, and thanks for commenting on my name. Look up Jon gruden, because it is apparent you really know nothing about sports.

  • Bluto
    July 4, 2010 2:25 p.m.

    re:Go Utah

    THINGS YOU WILL NEVER SEE IN A UTAH HALL OF FAME...

    FOOTBALL:
    *National Championship (Consensus-every major poll)
    *24 Conference Championships in 40 years
    *20 Top 25 finishes
    *A Heisman
    *2 Outland trophies
    *4 Davey O'Brien trophies
    *A Doak Walker Award
    *7 Sammy Baugh Awards
    *13 Consensus All-Americans Football (Utah? 2)
    *60 All-Americans-Football, over 1,000-All-Sports.
    *7 College Hall of Famers
    *Super-bowl MVP
    *NFL MVP-twice

    This is how as ESPN describes them, a "Legacy Football School" is made.

    You played in 2 BCS bowl games and won. Good for you. As a BYU fan I was cheering for you as well. You made our Conference proud. And now we're just dirt to you? Showing once again that lack of class thing?

    Remember, the BCS is contrived, and 10 teams a year play in a BCS bowl.

    If Utah can continue to finish in the polls, great.
    If not? Hello Washington State/Baylor.

    Regardless of Conference affilation Utah fans, you have not achieved these honors as has BYU.

    It's why BYU has more TV casche than Utah ever will.
    ESPN knows the ratings game.

  • UteMan
    July 4, 2010 2:55 p.m.

    @ Tom in CA

    You predicted a road win for BYU of 51 to 17 and your main points were Heaps and Apo? Good luck with that.

    Your beloved cougars have not beaten Utah in any convincing way since going back over a decade. I would focus on what you will do against Washington prior to making any rivalry game predictions. There is a realistic chance your team starts 2-2 or worse this year, but we appreciate your focus on Utah being the only big game on your schedule as we know you will not be contending for the BCS.



  • ProudRedUtahAlum
    July 4, 2010 3:00 p.m.

    Is it just me, or are all of these pathetic zoob fans pulling out stats in favor of BYU getting annoying (like flies buzzing around your head). The deal is done. Utah is in, BYU is out. I'm sure that the zoobs think they have something to prove now to the rest of the country, which is no skin off my back. Whatever floats their boat. Maybe you guys should go fantisize while watch BYU classic sports and not make fools of yourselves on Utah football articles.

  • GoUtah
    July 4, 2010 3:11 p.m.

    @chuckie

    So last year's TDS victory over then #3 OK must have been a really big deal for you. It doesn't matter that OK finished unranked in 2009. That was a BIG win for the TDS! A big deal beating a pre-season, over-ranked team.

    It's the same with the TDS *NC in 1984. You beat "nobody" who finished in the top AP 25. We do have the TDS to thank for exposing a broken system, hence a broke *NC that year.

    We also have the TDS for blowing what turned out to be two chances to stop Utah going to a BCS game. Now the "mid-major" TDS is in Utah's shadow. Join with me and sing, "Rise and Shout the TDS is OUT!" Man . . . they really are out . . .

  • Casper
    July 4, 2010 3:36 p.m.

    Can someone explain to me what the following awards are:

    Outland trophies
    Davey O'Brien trophies
    Doak Walker Award
    Sammy Baugh Awards

    The way some (or one) BYU fan(s) talk, these awards somehow define who/what they are.

    I ask because last year was the first time a player from Alabama won the Heisman. Yet, the storied history of Bama is not diminished in the least because they did not (prior to last year) have a Heisman on their list of accomplishments. Alabama would look silly running around showing a list of awards. Their program speaks for itself.

    From an athletics standpoint, I understand why BYU fans feel that their school deserves attention. What I don't understand is why BYU fans (at least some of them) insist that athletics is the ONLY criteria that has to be met for the PAC's invite.

    Honestly, I just don't get it. The PAC clearly stated their case. Why can't some of the BYU fans just move on?? This isn't a slam on BYU fans. I just don't understand why they believe the PAC invite should be solely about athletics. It's not only about athletics.

  • TDS Fan
    July 4, 2010 3:37 p.m.

    @chuckie

    I'm having to agree with "GoUtah." It still hurts so bad that we didn't beat the Utes in '04 and '08. We could have stopped them from going to the BCS and ultimately the PAC. We only have ourselves to blame.

    It also stings that it had to be Utah to break our consecutive scoring streak. What was it, 365 games? In our own house, no less.

    This whole mess with Utah moving on and us stuck as a Mid Major is really starting to set in.



  • Uteology
    July 4, 2010 3:40 p.m.

    @SportsFan | 10:03 a.m. July 4, 2010

    It a good thing Kyle is moving to the PAC 12 because it's only a matter of time before Bronco starts adding BCS wins to his resume and thereby surpasses Kyle in only category Kyle still has a lead.

    -----------------

    Another comedian. Only category?

    Coach of the Year: KW 1 vs Bronco 0

    BYU recruiting classes have ranked higher yet KW has developed more NFL talent (19 vs 9 players drafted).

    KW beat 4 ranked teams in 2008 alone.
    Bronco: #22 TCU 2006 and #18 Utah 2009

    KW is 5-0 in the postseason.
    Bronco is 3-2 vs. PAC-10 5th place team.


    Only a matter of time?

    Its been 14 years since BYU played in January.
    Its been 25 years since BYU went undefeated.
    BYU has 2 wins vs final ranked bowl teams in history
    BYU has NEVER won a non-conference final ranked team in MWC.

    I do agree though by Utah leaving BYU has a better chance of accomplishing what Utah has done twice.

  • RepresentBlue
    July 4, 2010 4:13 p.m.

    @Casper,

    The accolades posted by BYU fans like myself on this article are in response to the numerous statements by arrogant Ute fans who insist that BYU is now destined to become irrelevant because Utah is moving on to the PAC and BYU is left behind in the MWC. We all recognize that Utah is moving on to greener pastures, and will have more opportunities playing in the PAC. But that doesn't mean BYU is destined for mediocrity in the MWC, as proven by 4 consecutive top 25 seasons, and a top 25 recruiting class for 2010. BYU Football will continue to improve and impress on the national stage with or without Utah. And the question of who is better will continue to proven on the field, where BYU is currently on top. That is unless Utah starts thinking BYU is too tough an opponent to schedule for its non-conference games. Weber State will probably become their big instate rival instead.

  • VegasCoug
    July 4, 2010 4:21 p.m.

    All of this calling the Cougars a "mid-major" is cute and all but guess what Ute fans, you're not fooling ANYBODY.

    Anyone with a memory that goes back further then 2003 remembers that the Utes were an irrelevant football program prior to Urb. We all remember the days (again, not that long ago!) when Utah was struggling to get 20,000 people out to games. Now, all of a sudden a few years later Mighty Utah is a "major" program!

    It's simple, really, it's a Johnny come lately program with two great seasons under it's belt. So why don't Ute fans ever want to talk about the pre-Urb days, (other then mentionioning their precious 51-34 leather helmet-era induced head to head record).

    In fact, I won't even go back to pre-Urb days. How about the summer prior to the 2008 season? I seem to remember Ute fans wondering if Kyle Whittingham was the right guy for the job (since Kyle's first 3 years yielded no conference titles and no ranked seasons).

    Ute fans sure do tend to have extremely short, convenient memories...

  • chuckie
    July 4, 2010 4:23 p.m.

    GoUtah | 3:11 p.m. July 4, 2010
    @chuckie

    "So last year's TDS victory over then #3 OK must have been a really big deal for you. It doesn't matter that OK finished unranked in 2009."

    See, you are starting to understand. When BYU played Oklahoma last year, they (unfortunately, because it is never good for any player to get hurt) put Oklahoma in a position that they would end the season unranked.

    BYU changed the football landscape last year.

    When a football game is played on TV, they put their current rankings next to the team's name. Why do you think they do that?

    Are you asserting that when a team beats a 3rd ranked team it means nothing because that will not be how the team is ranked at the end of the season?

    Would you disagree that when a team that is ranked loses to a lower ranked team it affects where they will be ranked at the end of the year?

    BYU's wins against those teams are part of the reason they ended the season unranked.

    Utah fans continously fabricate logic that defies reasoning to build straw man arguments.

    Pretty pathetic.

  • Skierelmo
    July 4, 2010 4:51 p.m.

    Or maybe it's just the fact tha Recruit rankings, Pre-season rankings, opinions and backsides all have two things in common!! Everyone has them and most of them stink!!!! The "Final Pre-season polls" came out before OU knew they had lost two of thier best players for the year (not Bradford... I actually watch sports!) Which would have thrust them down the opinion polls before they ever played BYU. Imaginge if UF lost Tebow and Spikes after the Pre-season plolls, but before they played? They would lose, and most likely have finished unranked. I was cheering for BYU (as hard as it is for me to admit that) but after the sooners fell apart, it was all for not.

  • GoUtah
    July 4, 2010 4:51 p.m.

    @chuckie

    That's not correct. OK had a young, inexperience offensive line, among other issues, that the TDS and every other team exploited. College football's pre-season rankings serve one purpose and that is to sell newspapers, etc.

    Joe Paterno has gone on record to say that college football ranking should not be published until 6 games into the year.

    Your audacity on this subject only validates my argument.

  • CougarOnTheProwl
    July 4, 2010 4:55 p.m.

    Utes = Cougars' Big Brothers | 9:50 a.m. July 3, 2010
    BYU 2010 predicksons:

    BYU 24 UW 17
    BYU 37 AFA 28
    FSU 45 BYU 21
    BYU 35 Nevada 31
    BYU 31 USU 21
    BYU 28 SDSU 21
    TCU 49 BYU 31
    BYU 35 Wyo 28
    BYU 24 UNLV 3
    BYU 38 CSU 28
    BYU 28 UNM 18
    Utah 42 BYU 35

    Another 9-3 season with the loss in the "Cougar BCS Bowl" in Las Vegas to California



    Huh? another 9-3 season? when is the last time byu went 9-3? The last 4 years they have 10 plus win seasons.

    2006= 11-2 Bowl win
    2007= 11-2 Bowl win
    2008= 10-3 Bowl loss
    2009= 11-2 Bowl win

    Not sure where you came up with another 9-3 season.

  • chuckie
    July 4, 2010 5:32 p.m.

    GoUtah | 4:51 p.m. July 4, 2010
    "@chuckie
    That's not correct."

    Just for clarity, what part of my post is not correct?

    You are saying that Sam Bradford's injury had no impact on Oklahoma's season?

    That preseason or current rankings are meaningless?

    That when a team loses to a lower ranked team does not affect a teams current ranking?

    That losses to BYU do not affect a team's end of season ranking, or lact thereof?

    That the Utah fanbase use fallacious arguements?

    I must say that I am proud of you for using a big word like "audacity". Do you know what it means, or how to use it in a sentence.

    Please explain how it in any way my "audacity" proves your argument, or even tell us what that argument is... Is it that BYU's victory was a big win for BYU, or Oklahomas unranked finish in 2009 does not mean anything?

    Come on GoUtah. I believe in you. I believe you can post with clarity. Give it a shot.

  • Ute Bird Mascot
    July 4, 2010 5:44 p.m.

    Utes = Cougars' Big Brothers | 9:50 a.m. July 3, 2010
    BYU 2010 predicksons:

    BYU 24 UW 17
    BYU 37 AFA 28
    FSU 45 BYU 21
    BYU 35 Nevada 31
    BYU 31 USU 21
    BYU 28 SDSU 21
    TCU 49 BYU 31
    BYU 35 Wyo 28
    BYU 24 UNLV 3
    BYU 38 CSU 28
    BYU 28 UNM 18
    Utah 42 BYU 35


    Just curious, how did you come up with those scores. Many of the scores are multiples of 7. Are you saying those games will have not FG's?

    But my favorite is your score for UNM. You have them scoring 18. In that game you have UNM kicking 6 FGs and not scoring a touchdown. You can't spell prediction. And you have BYU having "another" 9 win season?

    Tell us please, why we should take anything you say seriously.

    Thanks.

  • Bluto
    July 4, 2010 6:33 p.m.

    Let's try one last time.

    Listen up Utes!!!

    We Cougar Fans freely "Stipulate", that Utah was indeed the "perfect fit" for the Pac-10. In every way, but Athletically.

    OK, got that?

    Now, what is being debated here is the notion that Utah was invited "Because" of their Althletic Prowess?

    THEY WERE NOT.

    BYU fans are merely making the "Prima Facie" argument that their Athletic Legacy is more storied.

    Therefore Utah's Athletics were irrelevant in the decision.

    It's just not arguable that BYU's Conference Championships all-sports (nearly one half), National Casche as a Football program and Conference Domination for decades, is far superior to Utah's.

    BYU fans are not miserably pine-ing for the Pac-10.
    Although Utes wish they were. It was never going to happen, according to Glenn Tuckett.

    Colorado was invited early, to kill any chance of Baylor, like BYU, a "Private Religious School" from even being considered.

    You see, Reason demands taking your assumptions to their "Logical conclusions", with "no exceptions".

    Thus Utah joining the Pac-10 based upon their Athletics is "illogical".

    Why? Because, Colorado's achievements the last 20 are slim and none. And yet?

    Case closed.

  • Ute Bird Mascot
    July 4, 2010 7:25 p.m.

    "Will move to Pac-10 affect Utah Utes recruiting?"

    And USU still adds stellar recruits in basketball, and BYU adds stellar recruits in football.

    Seems the only team in the state that needed help in recruiting was the University of Utah, so yes, let's hope it does help their recruiting. Because if there is a team in the state that does need help. it most definately is the U.

  • VegasCoug
    July 4, 2010 7:35 p.m.

    Very well said Bluto. No doubt, Utah is a good fit for the left coast liberal PAC. Congrats Utes, enjoy it.

    I take no umbrage against Utah for them getting in the PAC as BYU is not a good fit.

    What I do take exception to is all of this 180 degree turning, BCS kool-aid drinking, flat out hypocrisy wherein they are puffing up their chests and calling the Cougs "mid-majors". The same Ute fans that got so mad when the Utes were called mid-majors. The hypocrisy is astounding.

    What makes it even worse is they are acting as if the PAC was just falling all over themselves to invite Utah because Utah has such an amazing athletic program.

    They are a Johnny come lately who's had a nice run the last 7 years, but was nobody until old Urb came to town.

    The proof is in the pudding; such pudding as the Utes only having five 10+ win seasons in their entire program history. BYU? FIFTEEN 10+ win seasons in just the last 30 years! (Although I'm sure that FACTUAL STAT will be dismissed with "only BYU fans care") Comical...

  • dj2
    July 4, 2010 7:46 p.m.

    2011 Utah plays BYU in the Vegas Bowl

  • RepresentBlue
    July 4, 2010 8:23 p.m.

    @Bluto and VegasCoug,

    Well said Cougar fans! Johnnie Come Lately is the perfect way to describe the Utes, and here some stats that prove it:

    * BYU has 19 ranked seasons stretching back to 1974. Utah has had only 5, stretching back to 1994.

    * BYU has put together 4 3-year ranked season streaks, and 2 4-year ranked season streaks, with one of those being the last 4 years. Utah's longest ranked season streak is 2, which they have done only twice, and all in the last decade.

    Go ahead and spin that Ute fans. Tell us that only the "BYU collective" cares about the national rankings, or just call us a bunch of zoobies and tell us that "we have 2 BCS wins and a PAC-10 invite".

  • Truth Seeker
    July 4, 2010 8:33 p.m.

    The biggest change for Utah now they are in the Pac is they will have 3 times as many fans who will claim they have been fans for years. Until they start losing. Then BYU will gain alot more fans. Enjoy while your record is still 0-0.

  • Uteology
    July 4, 2010 8:37 p.m.

    RepresentBlue | 8:23 p.m. July 4, 2010
    @Bluto and VegasCoug,

    Well said Cougar fans! Johnnie Come Lately is the perfect way to describe the Utes.

    ---------------

    More boring stuff from Zoobs.

    No one cares how many times you are ranked by beating a mid-major schedule and then go 3-2 against PAC-10 5th place teams.

    If Utah had lost in 2004 and 2008 in the postseason people whould have laughed at us and deservedly so.

    Now if you went 5-0 against PAC-10 5th place teams you (we as MWC) would actually have something to brag about.

    Only bragging rights MWC enjoys NOW is because of Utah:

    #6 Utah 31
    #4 Bama 17

  • PAC Member, are U?
    July 4, 2010 8:42 p.m.

    Utah has carried the MWC far too long. It's Boise State and TCU's turn now. Utah, Boise St. and TCU have all proven they're worth their salt. The TDS continues to work to justify their greatness, but at the end of the day it all means nothing until you crack the BCS.

    Utah is the TRUE BCS buster. It's on now to the National Championship. A NC that won't be filled with questions around whether or not its deserved unlike the TDS' NC.

    It's a good thing Boise St. is coming to the MWC conference. Without Utah, it would have taken a major leap in the wrong direction.

  • Uteology
    July 4, 2010 9:15 p.m.

    If Utah is Johnnie Come Lately then what is BYU since they haven't played on the national stage since 1996 in football and in basketball won their first round game in 18 years?

    Look BYU is a good program but Dick is worng it is not the dominate program in the MWC. In the WAC is.

    Again, who cares the facts are Utah is in and BYU is not. Lets just see if Utah can recruit and compete in the PAC. If not then I am sure Zoobs will be delighted and if so then Utes will be.



  • Veritas Aequitas
    July 4, 2010 9:17 p.m.

    re:All BYU Posters:

    I think it is safe to say that BYU's football program has and is stronger than Utah's. Even 2008, Utah had some questionable games against Michigan, OSU, UNM, and TCU. BYU was even driving to take the lead in the third quarter.

    That being said their 2004 team was off the hook, and the 2008 game against Bama was solid, whether or not Bama was up for the game. So the Utes have had one great season, and one shakey season with a great bowl game.

    Many of the bowls in their 9 game streak were a joke, so those really mean nothing.

    Ute fans that use weak, selective, fallacious, straw man arguments are admitting as much as soon as they begin posting.

    NavalVet, HedgeHog, Uteology all fall into this category.

    The Utes have an opportunity to move to the PAC. Let's hope that helps their recruiting, because without it there will be 40,000, then 30,000, then 20,000 unhappy fans at RES.

    They are a state sponsored school, so it serves our tax dollars best that they do well.

    Realistically, I just don't see it happening.

    Crimson means froginablender...

  • TRUTH
    July 4, 2010 9:52 p.m.

    Whit didn't fight for National Title in 2008....because even he knew Utah did not deserve it?

    TCU kicked your butts up and down the field all night and the coach in the end beat himself....and Bama didn't even prepare.....they could have cared less facing the Utes in a Sugar Bowl that wasn't even played by the best player on both teams....

    Talk all you want Utes about your 2008 BCS....I am not Buying it.

    The 3 Best teams From the Mtn West are still in the MTN WEST....BSU, TCU and BYU....Utah will become the new WSU in the PAC-10.. Get ready to be humiliated every game while you are being chided as Mo's/prop haters from Utah....thus you will always be nothing more than BYU's Little Brother...forever!

    40k Rice Bowl....Pathetic



  • SportzFan
    July 4, 2010 10:01 p.m.

    Debating about a sport which is decided on the field is stupid.

    Of course, that is what the BCS is all about -- deciding a champion by off-the-the field politics, instead of on the field.

    If only politicians had any character or guts and legislated against the BCS, but of course, politicians, courage and character rarely line up. Just like class and those on these threads...

  • PAC Member, are U?
    July 4, 2010 10:02 p.m.

    @RepresentBlue

    You're right, Utah's two BCS invites and wins aren't worth mentioning. It's only something that the TDS hasn't been able to do. Utah's ability to go undefeated twice in six years is also something that the TDS hasn't been able to do. Not only did Utah go undefeated in '08 but also beat 4 AP top 25 ranked teams at the END of the season. Something else the TDS has never done.

    Problem is you're stuck in the '80 with the TDS. You're the recipient of a NC that is debated to this day whether or not the TDS deserved it.

    Now, Utah's program is in the most prestigious conference in the country. . . and rightfully deserved!

    "Rise and shout the TDS is OUT."

  • CougarOnTheProwl
    July 4, 2010 10:47 p.m.

    hedgehog | 10:24 a.m. July 4, 2010
    Does BYU even play football anymore? I mean, every article and posts is all about the Utes.

    Whats interesting is that kewgs find it more relevant to comment on the Utes 2011 season then actually focusing on the kewgars THIS SEASON.

    Umm, you do understand that most prejections have the kewgs ending up 4th in the confernce, right? You're punching it out with Wyoming - you know that - right?


    Prejections? what is this prejection your speaking of? I assume u mean projections or predictions. But either way since when do they matter? Games are won and lost on the field not through silly projections.

  • Ute Bird Mascot
    July 4, 2010 11:28 p.m.

    PAC Member, are U? | 10:02 p.m. July 4, 2010
    @RepresentBlue

    "Problem is you're stuck in the '80 with the TDS."

    Actually, I'm fine with talking about 2009. BYU beat Utah.
    ---
    Uteology | 9:15 p.m. July 4, 2010

    "Look BYU is a good program but Dick is worng it is not the dominate program in the MWC."

    Let's look again how Utah won Womens Tennis for their only MWC Title in 2009. BYU won 9 titles. Tell me again what dominant means to you.
    ---
    Uteology | 8:37 p.m. July 4, 2010

    "Only bragging rights MWC enjoys NOW is because of Utah."

    Yep, the MWC gets to brag that Utah represented the conference tied for 5th place in Men's basketball, and 3rd place in football.

    But, their womens Tennis Team won the MWC...

    Now look out PAC... There is the bragging rights from the MWC coming at you. Can you take it?

  • RepresentBlue
    July 4, 2010 11:43 p.m.

    @PAC Member

    Where did I say the Utes 2 BCS wins aren't worth mentioning? What I said is Utah's notable achievements have all been recent. Prior to 2003 Utah had only one ranked season in its entire history! By then BYU had 13, starting a full 20 years earlier, and including a #1, #7 and #10. This is why Utah is Johnny Come Lately, and the stats prove it. This does not take anything away from the success the Utes have had in RECENT years, but it does put it into perspective when compared with the much longer tradition of excellence of BYU. In statistics there is a concept known as scale distortion that is one of the most common causes of misleading statistics and this is what Ute fans have been guilty of for the last 7 years now. Seven years is not a long enough period of time to claim any kind of tradition of excellence, especially when the vast majority of the achievement came from just 2 years. Keep it up for a couple more decades and then you might have a tradition to brag about.

  • Veritas Aequitas
    July 4, 2010 11:44 p.m.

    PAC Member, are U?
    @RepresentBlue

    "Now, Utah's program is in the most prestigious conference in the country"

    Really, the PAC the most prestigous in the country?

    If that is the case, I will issue a challenge to you, NavalVet, HedgeHog, Uteology, and the rest.

    Stop posting "Darnit, we are not as bad as our record shows", "Shoot, we really are better than BYU, regardless", and "The MWC is Weak" posts in the Deseret news and Tribune, and start posting in The Arizona Republic, The LA Times, or the Seattle Times.

    Isn't it time for you kids to stop posting silly, inane, pathetic posts here and move on to your greener pastures?

    You are like the High School kids who never attended class, but the year after you graduated, you hung out at the high school parking lot every day because they never had to prove themselves anymore.

    Everytime you post here, you admit once again that BYU is the better school, you could never prove it on the field, but now the challenge is gone, you get to strut like the phony wannabes you were and are.

    Get a life.

    "The (UteFans) doth protest too much, methinks."

  • RepresentBlue
    July 4, 2010 11:55 p.m.

    @Uteology

    "Only bragging rights MWC enjoys NOW is because of Utah."

    This is the perfect example of how arrogant and delusional Ute fans have become in recent years. BYU has had more ranked seasons in the MWC than Utah has, and TCU had had as many even though they have been in the league only half as long. Nobody is denying that Utah has added tremendously to the prestige of the conference, but to suggest they are the ONLY team to have done so only wreaks of smugness and arrogance that Ute fans are now becoming famous for. Don't forget the Utes are currently 3rd place in the MWC and could very likely finish their final season in the "mid-majors" that Ute fans claim to have outgrown in the exact same spot. After that we will see you in the Vegas Bowl if you can manage to be bowl eligible playing in the PAC.

  • Ute Bird Mascot
    July 5, 2010 12:59 a.m.

    RepresentBlue | 11:55 p.m. July 4, 2010

    " After that we will see you in the Vegas Bowl if you can manage to be bowl eligible playing in the PAC."
    ---
    You have made an excellent point that so far has been missed by many.

    The joke is that the only time BYU will play Utah is in the Vegas Bowl.

    With 12 teams in the PAC, I can see Bowl eligibility being a bigger issue for the Utes than playing in the Rose Bowl...

  • Uteology
    July 5, 2010 2:11 a.m.

    @RepresentBlue | 11:55 p.m. July 4, 2010

    I have always said the MWC is top heavy (Utah, TCU, and BYU).

    I have always said Utah is the top dog, closely followed by TCU.

    I said if TCU had won Boise they would have taken over, and still might do so this year.

    I said if BYU wants to be considered the top dog it needs to stop losing to 5th place PAC-10 teams in the postseason.

    Bragging rights for the MWC NOW are because of Utah see 2004 and 2008 postseason for details.

    If dominating a mid-major schedule was important then Boise and BYU would be in the national title game talk each and every year. Since they are not I can only assume no one cares about dominating a mid-major schedule only to lose "consistently" in the postseason.

  • hedgehog
    July 5, 2010 6:59 a.m.

    Ute Bird,

    its been a rough few month for the tds. But it looks like the zoobie is starting to catch their breath and drink the delusional cool aid again.

    You got about 60 days to bounce around in your bubble. And then? a PAC beatdown at the LES to start ( and end) the season.

  • Uteology
    July 5, 2010 7:05 a.m.

    BYU fans please explain to me how can you clown the 2009 #18 Ute team when that team is the highest ranked team BYU has beat in the history of playing in the MWC?

    Your history of excellence I guess does not include beating teams ranked after the postseason? If so please
    provide us those statistics so we can all be in aww with those "elite" ranked teams.

    Here I will start BYUs last 5 ranked teams have won a combined 2 teams ranked in the last poll and one them according to BYU fans is horriable.

  • So Cal Ute
    July 5, 2010 7:11 a.m.

    Pac 10 invite:

    KW: 1
    Bronco: 0

    Bronco will be trampled by Broncos in 2011.

  • Tom in CA
    July 5, 2010 8:05 a.m.

    @SoCalUte 7:11am

    "Bronco WILL BE trampled" - you must be looking into your crystal ball.

    The team that WAS trampled by BSU was your 2006 team AT RES 36-3. Remember that one SoCalUte??

    Oh, and that year your team was tampled big time by UCLA (one of your new big brothers), and to both Wyoming and New Mexico (ouch!!).

    That's right - and Harline is still open. Remember that one?? HaHaHa.


  • GoUtah
    July 5, 2010 9:55 a.m.

    @Tom in CA

  • VegasCoug
    July 5, 2010 10:24 a.m.

    @ Uteology

    "if BYU wants to be considered the top dog it needs to stop losing to 5th place PAC-10 teams in the postseason."

    Apparently you didn't notice that BYU won 3 of it's last 4 against the PAC in bowl games? Let me refresh your memory...

    06 = Cougs dominated that Dennis Dixon/Jonathan Stewart led Oregon squad 38-8. (Oregon was a very talented team that had been ranked in the top 10 at one point, and was a team I recall Ute fans saying was going to smoke us).

    07 = 17-16 win over UCLA. A lackluster performance, I will concede, but a win is a win and UCLA had some real talent on defense that year and played inspired trying to win their interim coach the full time job.

    08 = laid an egg against Arizona, no question.

    09 = Bounced back with a dominating 44-20 win over #18 Oregon State (and it wasn't even that close).

    So I guess winning 3 of their last 4 against the PAC in bowls with 2 of those wins being in dominating fashion is what you call "keep losing to the PAC in bowls"???

  • hedgehog
    July 5, 2010 10:36 a.m.

    I'd suggest grief counseling for all you Kewgs. It seems like your all stuck in the anger and denial stage. Instead of accepting the proven shortcomings of BYU athletics and understaning your very limited role in a national scope, you've found a hollow solace in disrepecting your big brother. Only when you become comfortable in your own skin can you then move forward. Your not there yet.

    Help is only a phone call away.

  • VegasCoug
    July 5, 2010 10:48 a.m.

    @ Uteology

    All of your talk of belittling a "mid-major schedule" inspired me to look at the Yewts performance against their mid-major opponents in recent years, since they are now so far above that, right?

    05 = Utes went 4-4 in MWC play

    06 = Remember getting embarrassed at home 36-3 by Boise this year? How about losing in back to back weeks to Wyoming and New Mexico that season?

    07 = Losing to Air Force followed by an embarrasing 27-0 loss to UNLV ring a bell?

    08 = The dominating 08 Utah squad, the one that barely survived games against Air Force, New Mexico and TCU. So dominating against the mid-majors!

    09 = Mid-major TCU smoked you guys (smoked us too!)

    Let me remind you guys that Utah has only won the MWC once in the last 5 seasons. They haven't been dominating the MWC folks. Since TCU joined the conference they have only won it ONE TIME. Meanwhile, since TCU joined up BYU managed to put together a MWC-record 16 conference wins in a row.

    You're right though Utes, the MWC is sooooo beneath you now!

  • Tom in CA
    July 5, 2010 11:26 a.m.

    The bottom line is this:

    BYU has been the class of the WAC/MWC for the last 40 years and everyone knows it except, apparently, the attention starved yewties who keep trying to justify themselves with their scantily thin stat arguements. Maybe a half century from now, if they keep their nose to the grind stone, their record will compare - but that is a big maybe.

    Utah is where they are today, i.e, in the PAC-12 because of big brother BYU.

    Admit it - you will feel better.

  • VegasCoug
    July 5, 2010 11:42 a.m.

    @hedgehog

    "accepting the proven shortcomings of BYU athletics" Is this for real coming from a Ute fan? Did a fan of a school whose athletics has only produced 8 conference championships in the last 3 years really just belittle a school whose athletics has produced 25 conference titles in the same said period?

    It's even more funny when one considers that BYU dominated the Deseret Duel 45 to 15 this year. So if that's "shortcomings in BYU athletics" then what shall we call Utah's athletics??

    If Utah is big brother now as you say, then big brother sure is getting whooped by little brother. LOL!

  • Randy01
    July 5, 2010 12:53 p.m.

    All the comments about the number of total conference championships is interesting. After all, isn't the thread really about football. For example, Arkansas has the most SEC and National Championships overall since joining the SEC in 1991/1992. Hmmm..... not a one has come from football and even the most die hard fans aren't going to say that they are any more than than 5th best football program in the SEC. One heck of a track dynasty and a truly great run in the 1990s in basketball though.

    Utah has two undefeated seasons in the last 6 years. By any measure, that is a rare achievement. I don't want to take anything away from BYU, but when you refer to the score to degrade Utah's wins, you weaken your own achievements, since many or your wins came against the same opponents. Football is not a style points game.

    BYU had an undefeated season and won their national championship in 1984 based on the rules in place at that time. There is no asterisk, All I ask as a Utah fan is the you give us the same consideration for 2004 and 2008.

  • GoUtah
    July 5, 2010 12:55 p.m.

    @chuckie

    "Audacity" Nerve, overconfidence, cheek. That describes tds fans. You're right. Perhaps a better descriptive word would be: "Obtuse" but that may hit a little too close to home.

    @RepresentBlue
    Look up the "scale of tds jealousy" and tell me what that says. I'm guessing it will say "wishing we were invited. . ."

    @Veritas Aequitas
    Your posts aren't worth the time reading . . .

    @Tom in CA
    "Harline is still open." That's an oldie but a goodie.

    Here's one for you: "The PAC 10 and Big XII are still closed." This one won't get old, though. This one will keep on giving, or taking depending on who you are.

    Utah' in the PAC due to tds? Look up the word "Obtuse."

    Also, sing it with me, "Rise and shout the tds is OUT."







  • Veritas Aequitas
    July 5, 2010 1:09 p.m.

    Geez, you Utes are a whiney group.

    And if it's daytime, you have argument that it is nightime.

    ---
    Uteology | 7:05 a.m. July 5, 2010
    "BYU fans please explain to me how can you clown the 2009 #18 Ute team"...

    Ummmm, the Utes finished the season 23rd...

    People say BYU beat no ranked teams in 1984, because only end of season ranking count, yet, when talking about the 2009 Utes, let's use the #18 because it makes the Utes look better.

    Classic uteology. Hypocrisy, distortion, fallacious arguements are all in your bag of tricks, because without all of these tricks the Utes look , well, like the Utes.

    ---

    Serious, if the Utes are that good, why is everything you post misleading?

    ---
    NavalVet, HedgeHog, Uteology, GoUtah, and the rest.

    Stop posting "Darnit, we are not as bad as our record shows", "Shoot, we really are better than BYU, regardless", and "The MWC is Weak" posts in the Deseret news and Tribune, and start posting in The Arizona Republic, The LA Times, or the Seattle Times.

    Serious, we're done waxing you. move on to your new pastures. Let them get a load of what you guys are putting out.

  • hedgehog
    July 5, 2010 1:32 p.m.

    Hey Kewgs, Any word for the Big 12 today???

    crickets crickets crickets

    No worries, I'll ask again tomorrow. ( and the next day and the next day ...)

  • VegasCoug
    July 5, 2010 1:48 p.m.

    @Randy01

    "BYU had an undefeated season and won their national championship in 1984 based on the rules in place at that time. There is no asterisk, All I ask as a Utah fan is the you give us the same consideration for 2004 and 2008."

    Nobody is disputing that 2004 and 2008 weren't great seasons for the Utes. They were terrific seasons and yes, Utah does hold over BYU the 2 BCS games.

    What we're saying is that if you peel back the onion layer a little bit, the Utes don't have much else to go on besides those 2 big BCS seasons.

    The reality is you're talking about a football program that has only produced 5 double-digit win seasons in their entire history.

  • hedgehog
    July 5, 2010 2:23 p.m.

    VegasCoug,

    This sour grapes smack is getting real old. Stomping your feet and throwing a fit about what programs better gets you what exactly?

    Utah was choosen to join a BCS confernce, BYU was not. Cold hard reality folks.

    So now your going to hate Utah because the PAC teams wanted them and not you? Get on with life and try to leave your silly anger and hate behind.

  • Uteology
    July 5, 2010 3:19 p.m.

    @Vertas
    Utah finished #18 in 2009. Now apologise not to me but for posting comedy on a football article.


    @VegasCoug
    I guess your not proud of your 2005 team. But own it you are 3-2.
    Like I own the 2005 Ute team:
    6-6 Utah 38
    7-3 #21 (?) Georgia Tech 10

    UCLA was bowl eligable only because they beatup BYU at home.
    Oreagon was a 7-5 team just like Cali in 2005.

  • Randy01
    July 5, 2010 3:36 p.m.

    VegasCoug

    So how is this

    1. BYU has been the strongest mid-major program in the country over the past 30 year (as per ESPN). They have the 1984 NC and those really cool individual awards.
    2. Utah has been more successful in terms of undefeated seasons, bowl wins, and BCS Bowl wins during the BCS era.
    3. Utah was invited to join a major conference and BYU was not.
    4. Utah was invited to the PAC12 for more than just athletics and it fits the research profile of the other schools in the PAC12.
    5. BYU is first and foremost a teaching institution serving the LDS community. Football is neither schools' primary mission.
    6. If Utah can establish itself in the top 5 of the PAC12 it will likely hold a recruiting advantage over BYU over the long term. If not, is likely that no such edge will materialize.
    7. We will see what this means on the field.
    8. If Utah wins the PAC12 they go to the Rose Bowl - if not, maybe they will be meeting a familiar opponent in the Los Vegas Bowl.

    That is as close to the facts as possible.

  • RepresentBlue
    July 5, 2010 4:24 p.m.

    @Randy01

    I know you weren't addressing your post to me, but I agree with all your points. See, I have not been posting accolades about BYU to put the Utes down. Truth be told I admire the Utes, and I especially admire Kyle Whittingham (after all, he is a former Cougar!). My only purpose in posting BYU accolades is to silence all the little haters who have recently turned out in droves to talk trash about BYU and try to claim the Cougars are irrelevant. Nothing could be further from the truth. The real truth is that the successes of both BYU and Utah are linked and compliment one another. The successes of both programs are due in no small part to the rivalry that has existed between them for nearly a century. The only thing that bothers me about Utah's invitation to the PAC is that there is a good chance that this rivalry will now be diminished. Hopefully that will not be the case, but I doubt the rivalry game will continue to be the last game of the season, and that alone will take a lot away from it.

  • VegasCoug
    July 5, 2010 4:55 p.m.

    @Uteology

    I'll own the 05 Vegas Bowl no problem. One should consider that team was Bronco's 1st year of inheriting the Crowton mess and they were just a 6-win team that gave #21 ranked Cal all they could handle in a narrow 35-28 defeat. Yes, Bronco is 3-2 in bowl games against the PAC which is still a winning record with 2 of those wins being totally lop-sided affairs. Admit it, their 44-20 beat down of top 20 Oregon State last year was a great win. Come on, I know you can do it.

    @ Randy01

    I think you are the first fair, measured Ute fan I have ever seen post on here. I applaud you and have absolutely no problem with any of your 8 points you just posted.

    You see, I respect greatly what Utah has done the last 7 years. But when obnoxious posters start in with the "TDS is a mid-major" talking down garbage, well then, the Cougar claws will come out, and that's when you'll start seeing me list the long term success of BYU vs the short-term success of Utah.

  • Las Vegas Cougar BCS Bowl
    July 5, 2010 5:40 p.m.

    @SportsFan | 10:03 a.m. July 4, 2010...tt a good thing Kyle is moving to the PAC 12 because it's only a matter of time before Bronco starts adding BCS wins to his resume and thereby surpasses Kyle in only category Kyle still has a lead...

    When will Bronco start adding BCS wins to his resume? Is it when snow falls in Singapore? Or is it when Obama stop increase the national deficit?
    When? When? When?

  • Randy01
    July 5, 2010 6:50 p.m.

    RepresentBlue and VegasCoug:

    Thank your for your comments. From a background perspective, I went to Utah, sent my daughter to BYU and lived most of my life in or close to SEC country. BYU and Utah and indeed had a symbiotic relationship and the rivalry has done much for both programs.

    I love it when the Utes beat BYU. I know that both of you feel the same when BYU wins. A real rivalry means that both teams have a chance. It is what makes it exciting. Projections, comparisons, and even some trash talk enhances the experience; however, we need to be careful about taking it into the realm of character or institution assassination.

    An good fan is an honest fan, displays sportsmanship and appreciates history. Recognizing each others accomplishments enhances our own. Preparation drives excellence.

    It is my hope that the rivalry continues along the line of the annual Georgia/Georgia Tech game. It would be great for both programs. It is also my hope that being in different conferences will introduce a greater level of civility and respect to the rivalry.

  • NewMexicoUte
    July 5, 2010 8:32 p.m.

    All I can say is recruiting prior to the move to the Pac-10 was felt in the 2010 recruiting year. Utah picked up a late 4-star commit in Reggie Dunn who was dropped by Oregon St and picked up by the Utes.

    The wide receiver battle this fall will be exciting! The Utes 2010 class have a group of talented athletic receivers:
    Reggie Dunn
    Martavious Lee
    Griffin McNabb (early favorite to start)
    Terrell Reese
    Kenneth Scott
    Dres Anderson
    Fatu Moala (played very well in Spring ball)

    Along with:
    "Shaky" Smithson
    Jeremy Brooks
    DeVonte Christopher
    Luke Matthews

    Running back:
    Matt Asiata
    Wide
    Shakerin
    Lucky Radley (he is quick and fast)

    Go UTES!

  • Veritas Aequitas
    July 5, 2010 10:01 p.m.


    BCS Rankings
    (Final 2009)
    1. Alabama
    2. Texas
    3. Cincinnati
    4. TCU
    5. Florida
    6. Boise State
    7. Oregon
    8. Ohio State
    9. Georgia Tech
    10. Iowa
    11. Virginia Tech
    12. LSU
    13. Penn State
    14. BYU
    15. Miami (FL)
    16. West Virginia
    17. Pitt
    18. Oregon State
    19. Oklahoma State
    20. Arizona
    21. Stanford
    22. Nebraska
    23. Utah
    24. USC
    25. Wisconsin

    I thought everything Utah was about was BCS. Are we now pulling in different polls.

    Sorry, I felt the need to play the "Uteology" game a bit.

  • ute1
    July 5, 2010 10:19 p.m.

    I can't believe how dumb some byu fans are. You're not nearly the program you think you are. A farse championship 26 years ago against a 6 and 6 team is not even close to what the Utes have accomplished. Please don't try to put yourselves on par with the Utes. It is insulting. Next you will be telling us that Utah State is a better program then Utah.

  • TJB
    July 5, 2010 11:41 p.m.

    Utah and BYU recruit totally different types players. Utah goes after speed and athletic ability first and for most, and byu has to find players that will fit in the scheme and honor code. Dick just so you know, Utah has 2 recruiters that live in the state of Texas. So I would doubt that making a trip to the 5th largest college (behind UT,TTU,A@M, and Baylor) in Texas would make a difference either way.

  • Uteology
    July 6, 2010 6:07 a.m.

    @Veritas Aequitas | 10:01 p.m. July 5, 2010

    Hmmm? Long live Zoob logic.



    Back on topic, PAC-10 has already made an impact on Utah's recruiting. Here's an example:

    In 2008 Harvey Langi said:

    “Yeah, BYU is my top school for sure,” Langi said. “Not just because of the high standards and expectations, but because of the great people, great environment and great coaching. BYU is near to home, and so those are some of the reasons why.”


    Today:
    “Utah going to the Pac-10 just blows my mind,” he told The Tribune. “That’s crazy. That’s unreal. That makes the decision for me even harder, because it puts Utah higher up, no question. Now they are up there with the big boys I’ve been visiting, schools like USC, UCLA, Stanford and Washington.”

  • Uteology
    July 6, 2010 6:31 a.m.

    @Veritas Aequitas | 10:01 p.m. July 5, 2010

    I thought everything Utah was about was BCS. Are we now pulling in different polls.

    Sorry, I felt the need to play the "Uteology" game a bit.

    ------------------

    BcS is a joke just like most of your posts. Playing in the PAC-10 won't change it. Its about playing in January not the BcS system.

    The "big" games are not played in December, no body cares that a MWC champ beat a 5th place team in Vegas.

  • GoUtah
    July 6, 2010 9:41 a.m.

    @Veritas Aequitas

    Please stop posting. They're waist of time and webspace.

  • swaps
    July 6, 2010 11:11 a.m.

    I think the Utes will do well against the Arizonas, Oregons and Wshingtons of the PAC 10. National media and coaches don't appreciate how tough it is every week to get by the Wishbone Falcons, always dangerous Wyoming (beat Tennessee on the Vols field and played Texas even for a half), Colorado State (routine winner over Colorado of late). Many schools go through good and bad cycles.

    I hope the Utes and Cougars drop their regular season games so that one day they might meet in a national championship game. Then you slightly more liberal LDS at the U and orthodox LDS at the Y will really get your blood pressure up.

    But I am still surprised Colorado got into the PAC 10 mix. I live in Colorado and it seems to fit more naturally with the Midwest or Rocky Mountain area. Though Boulder definitely gives Colorado a northern California marijuana shop feel. So they think they are a mile high even as the Buffaloes look pathetic in most non conference games of late.

  • Me Myself and I
    July 6, 2010 12:38 p.m.

    @RepresentBlue

    "My only purpose in posting BYU accolades is to silence all the little haters who have recently turned out in droves to talk trash about BYU and try to claim the Cougars are irrelevant."

    You might want to ask yourself the question as to why there are all those "little haters". Could it possibly be because of Byu fans like you? We all know that Byu has had a stronger past in football. After all we have had it shoved down our throats for years by so many arrogant Byu fans (just like you are doing now). I respect the University but hate the fans, and that is because of the fans and nothing to do with the church. Take a look in the mirror and ask yourself if you represent well...

  • GoUtah
    July 6, 2010 1:03 p.m.

    @swaps

    Good insight.

    I like the idea of Utah and tds meeting up in a National Championship game. However, there are two problems with that.

    First, the tds' "mid-major" status will prove problematic.

    Second, it would be a little Anti-climactic given the tds bowl tradition. Based on the past performance it's evident that the tds doesn't care about the post-season.

  • PAC Member, are U?
    July 6, 2010 1:15 p.m.

    @swaps
    GoUtah

    I like the idea of Utah vs. tds for the NC. But I do have to agree with GoUtah.

    tds and bowl games are like "oil and water." It's almost like the tds is allergic to the post-season.

    No, the better NC would be Utah vs. a worthy opponent. I'm not convinced that the tds would be worthy of a NC bowl, let alone any other BCS bowl given their tradition.


  • blue dot!
    July 6, 2010 1:40 p.m.

    There is little doubt that Pac 10 affiliation will improve recruiting for Utah. There are many kids who dream of playing in the Pac 10, and they now can look to the Utes and Colorado as well. Any attempt to argue that this won't impact Utah recruiting is silly. As much as the MWC fans like to pretend it ain't so, the fact is that high school talented PSA's view the Pac in higher regard than the MWC. These kids can now look forward to home-and-home tilts against national BCS powers from other conferences who would most likely overlook such a deal with a MWC school. There is no way to argue this is a bad thing for Utah recruiting.

  • GoUtah
    July 6, 2010 1:49 p.m.

    @PAC Member, are U?

    Ya, I agree. Utah beating a "mid-major" would put Utah's, then, NC in question similar to the tds' 1984 NC.

    Utah would want to play the very best team for the NC so there wouldn't be any questions whether or not Utah deserved it. Beating a "mid-major" just wouldn't do it.

  • hedgehog
    July 6, 2010 2:25 p.m.

    What’s desperate and sooooo arrogant is that Kewg’s actually think they could be successful as an independent. Somehow they think they demand the same interest/repect as a Notre Dame. Completely laughable, but I’d love to see them fall on their face trying

    The truth is BYU is stuck in a non AQ conference FOREVER.

    LOL!

  • Big_Ben
    July 6, 2010 2:29 p.m.

    @ Veritas

    Those are the final rankings, and somehow TCU is ahead of Boise State? I think you need to check your facts. Looks to me like you have replaced giantfan/SportsFan as the Chris B of BYU fans.

  • Uteology
    July 6, 2010 2:55 p.m.

    To all those BYU fans counting "number of rankings".

    Last 10 Years:

    Here’s why “total rankings” is a meaningless statistic to compare quality of the two programs. It’s the quality not the quantity.


    Total Appearances in the Final AP Poll in 2000s:

    Rank Team…..Appearances (Average Ranking)
    1 Texas………10 (7.00)
    4 Georgia………9 (12.44)
    12 TCU………7 (16.43)
    13 Boise………6 (10.50)
    23 BYU………5 (18.40)
    26 Alabama………4 (6.50)
    27 Utah………4 (11.25)


    BYU is not a better program then Bama or Utah over the last 10 years, considering that the only think BYU has to show for it is wins over 2 ranked teams (#22 TCU 2006 and #18 Utah 2009). In fact with teams with 5 or more appearances BYU has the 3rd worst average ranking. Overall USC with 8 rankings is the best with an average final ranking of 5.00.

  • RepresentBlue
    July 6, 2010 3:04 p.m.

    @Me Myself and I

    I am sorry you find my posts offensive, but if you think that only BYU fans are arrogant and obnoxious then you are wearing blinders. BYU fans are no different than other fans, and lately it is Ute fans who have epitomized arrogant and obnoxious fans. Read through the messages on this board and count how many messages there are posted by Ute fans trashing everything BYU - the school, the athletics, the fans. I am not the kind of fan who boasts about accolades in order to put other teams down. I have only listed them on this forum to refute all the posts being made by Ute fans claiming that BYU football is weak and irrelevant.

  • Uteology
    July 6, 2010 3:05 p.m.

    Entire History:

    Total Appearances in the Final AP Poll from 1936 to today:

    Rank Team………Appearances (Average Ranking)
    01 Michigan………55 (9.5)
    28 Colorado………18 (11.67)
    32 BYU………17 (15.53)
    33 Duke………16 (12.88)
    38 TCU………15 (13.07)

    In the top 50 BYU has the 2nd worst average AP rankings behind #50 NC State with 11 appearances and an average ranking of 16.55.

    Conclusion, playing with a weaker “mid-major” schedule BYU still has one of the worst overall average rankings (over the last decade and in its entire history). That’s because they have consistently lost in bowl games regardless of the strength of the team they played.


  • Chris B
    July 6, 2010 3:06 p.m.

    Roses vs. 3rd place in the MWC


    Should be a tough choice for recruits huh?

  • Me Myself and I
    July 6, 2010 3:54 p.m.

    @ RepresentBlue

    I do not think that only Byu fans are arrogant and obnoxious. Trust me some of the UTE posters are an embarrassment. But I have been a UTE fan for many years and have dealt with the arrogance from BYU fans as well as the insinuation that I must have a drinking problem or not an upstanding member of the church. Over the years due to the fans I have grown to greatly dislike Byu sports. I did read through the posts and both sides are out of control with their insults. And if you think otherwise, then you are the one with blinders on. I am one that hopes that the rivalry ends so that we can all live in peace... You say that you are only trying to refute all the UTE fan posts, yet you seem to be doing the same thing in your posts...

  • VegasCoug
    July 6, 2010 4:06 p.m.

    @ Uteology

    Once again a Ute fan posts an obscure stat as an attempt to marginalize BYU successes. You are just verifying what I have always seen to be true from Utes such as yourself. You absolutely REFUSE and are incapable of giving credit where credit is due to the Cougs; it would kill you too much, therefore you find any way possible to twist BYU successes to marginalize them.

    Watch this: I freely concede as a Cougar fan that Utah has a big advantage over BYU in the BCS era with their 2 BCS bowl game wins.

    You see that? I just gave credit where credit is due.

    Now, all of the Ute's success in the 2000's don't change the fact that prior to Urb showing up they were a pretty irrelevent football program with only one 10+ win season in their history. Now they have 5 10+ win seasons.

    BYU has FIFTEEN 10+ win seasons. And these seasons were all played while BYU and Utah shared the same conference and played the same level of competition. 15 to 5, with apples to apples playing field... spin that one, I know you will...

  • VegasCoug
    July 6, 2010 4:15 p.m.

    @Uteology

    "Total Appearances in the Final AP Poll from 1936 to today:

    Rank Team………Appearances (Average Ranking)
    01 Michigan………55 (9.5)
    28 Colorado………18 (11.67)
    32 BYU………17 (15.53)
    33 Duke………16 (12.88)
    38 TCU………15 (13.07)"

    First of all, your data is very limited by only using one poll.

    Second, I would submit that most of BYU's seasons of being ranked, yet not being ranked as high as others, is due to being over-looked by playing in a non-power conference. Ute fans know all too well that putting together great records outside the power structure limits your ability to rise in the polls. 2004 Utes perhaps? 2008? Didn't Ute fans argue they should be ranked higher those years?

    I.E. BYU sets an NCAA record in 1996 with 14 wins and beats #13 Kansas State in the Cotton Bowl, yet only finishes #5. BYU's average ranking in the polls is greatly impacted by the lack of respect for the conference they play in, and this is a phenomena Ute fans have complained about for the last 7 years. Denying such as a Ute fan is hypocrisy.

  • RepresentBlue
    July 6, 2010 4:50 p.m.

    @Me Myself and I

    First off - I have never made any connection between religion and sports, and I never will. Some of finest LDS people I know are die-hard Ute fans and I have a ton of respect for them. We talk sports all the time, even talk a little smack now and then, but it is always in good fun, and never disrespectful.

    Second - I have stated several times in my posts that I admire the Utes and what they have accomplished in the last 7 years. I do not think I have said anything that is insulting or belittling to the school, the coaches, players, or fans. If you were insulted by anything I posted then I apologize because that is not why I post things.

    Congratulations on your team's invitation to the PAC. It is HUGE and I can appreciate how excited Ute fans must be. Unfortunately many have begun using it to claim superiority and to belittle BYU fans so I will continue to respond to these smug Ute fans with hard facts to refute their attacks.

  • Naval Vet
    July 6, 2010 5:03 p.m.

    VegasCoug:

    "BYU sets an NCAA record in 1996 with 14 wins and beats #13 Kansas State in the Cotton Bowl, yet only finishes #5."

    ybU's record of 14 wins was set by playing an NCAA record 15 games in a single season. In 2008, the Utes won only 13 games, but since they did not play AT Hawai'i, nor did they play in a Conference Championship game, they did not have the opportunity to play a 14th or 15th game. While winning 14 games is impressive, going 14-1 [2-1 vs. ranked opponents] is less impressive than going 13-0 [4-0 vs. ranked opponents, including 2-0 vs. Top-10 teams]. If 13-0 as a mid-major was only awarded a #2 finish, why would a mid-major who's best win [Kansas St.] was a narrow come-from-behind rally vs. a team that finished in the final polls at #17 be worthy of something higher than fifth? You lost to the #16 team in the country [Washington], and needed O/T to put away Wyoming in the WAC Championship game. #5 was a GIFT! TAKE IT! And quit your Y-ning.

  • Uteology
    July 6, 2010 6:14 p.m.

    @VegasCoug

    Look, I have always said that BYU was the dominate team in the WAC.

    Even though 84 was more due to teams around them losing they still won the title by the rules of those days. Same rules that Utah played by but was horriable.

    But I also maintain that BYU is not an "elite" program, if they were they would have had a better record against ranked teams and against "big boys" in bowl games. BYU’s postseason bowl record speaks for itself: 10—17—1 (.375)


    Is Utah that much superior then BYU today? No.

    Is Utah the current alpha dog of a much tougher MWC? Yes.

    Is Utah headed in better direction then BYU? Yes, both recruiting wise and building NFL talent.


    Comparing rankings 5 vs 4 or 6 is worthless when one team went 3-1 in December and the other 2-0 in January.

    Finally, data is not limited considering AP has been around since 1936 and it crowns its own champion.

    AP clearly shows, like Boise, BYUs legacy is to dominate a "mid-major" schedule but, unlike Boise, they "consistently" lose to teams in the postseason.

  • VegasCoug
    July 6, 2010 6:15 p.m.

    @ Naval Vet

    You and I both know that a 14-1 team from any "power conference" would have finished higher then #5, especially with the momentum of finishing the season with a big win. That was my whole point. How many times have we seen Ohio State play a pretty soft Big 10 schedule in recent years yet still receive a top 2 ranking because they didn't have the stigma of playing in a "mid-major" conference?

    By the way, Wyoming was a 10-win, top 20 team going into that WAC title game in 96.

    While we're marginalizing each other's teams, let's talk about 04 Utah. I'll use your criteria and point out that they didn't beat a single team that finished ranked that year.

    But guess what, I still think 04 Utah was an outstanding team that should have finished ranked higher then #4. Why didn't they? Because they had the stigma of being from a non-BCS conference.

    So... back to my original point of challenging Uteology's stats by saying that Utes and Cougars alike both have been limited in the polls by their conference affiliation.

  • Uteology
    July 6, 2010 6:28 p.m.

    @VegasCoug | 4:15 p.m. July 6, 2010

    Second, I would submit that most of BYU's seasons of being ranked, yet not being ranked as high as others, is due to being over-looked by playing in a non-power conference.

    ------------

    What? Are you serious? You are wrong. It has nothing to do with "media" bias but everything to do with BYU losing in the postseason games.

    For example, if you lost to 6-6 MI in 1984 I am willing to bet you would not have been ranked #1 or in 1996 dropped out of the top 10.


    History:
    32 BYU………17 (15.53)
    38 TCU………15 (13.07)

    Last 10 years:
    12 TCU………7 (16.43)
    13 Boise………6 (10.50)
    23 BYU………5 (18.40)
    27 Utah………4 (11.25)


    Anyway you look at it BYU has the worst average ranking. Check out Boise, they don't have a problem with ranking bias.

  • Naval Vet
    July 6, 2010 6:51 p.m.

    Wyoming was not a Top-20 team in 1996. They finished #22 in the final polls. Nobody cares what they were ranked at the time of the game. Teams can be overrated. What matters is where they finished.

    "...let's talk about 04 Utah. I'll use your criteria and point out that they didn't beat a single team that finished ranked that year."

    Except for Big East Champion Pitt [8-4], who while not at all a worthy opponent for a BCS game, still finished in the final poll ranked #25.

    What made the 2004 season so unique for the Utes was that while only 1 team ended up in the final polls, they beat 4 teams from AQ conferences, and won all of their games by substantial margins. AFA's 2 TD loss was the closest game that year, and the score actually made the game look a lot closer than it really was. Most games, including the Fiesta Bowl, were decided by Halfime. Meyer let the Utes score at will until the 4th Qtr when the game was already put away. That's when he'd put the reserves in.

    And that was EVERY GAME!

  • Randy01
    July 6, 2010 7:15 p.m.

    In January 2009, ESPN published a list of the most Prestigious College Football Programs. They had a pretty complete methodology. They ranked them as follows:

    Oklahoma
    USC
    Ohio State
    Notre Dame
    Nebraska
    Alabama
    Texas
    Michigan
    Florida State
    Miami
    Penn State
    Tennessee
    LSU
    Georgia
    Florida
    UCLA
    Washington
    Georgia Tech
    Arkansas (Woo Pig Sooiee!)
    Texas A&M
    Auburn
    Clemson
    Colorado
    Ole Miss
    BYU

    BYU was highest rated mid-major, Utah came in at 43. Points were given for ratings, bowl wins (with a stronger weight to January Bowls), records, conference, draft placement, awards, and national championships. Points were subtracted for probations, etc. Utah has clearly risen over the past decade, BYU has been consistent since the 1970s. Neither team has consistently played the quality of opposition that most of the teams in the Top-25 have played over their history. BYU doesn't have a January bowl win.

    This list demonstrates a sense of history and perspective. Let's inject some civility back into this rivalry. Let's not diminish either and remember that there is a total universe of college football out there. Enjoy the ride and stop throwing glass on the sidewalk.

  • VegasCoug
    July 6, 2010 7:22 p.m.

    @Uteology

    "The much tougher current MWC" became much tougher in 2005 when TCU joined to give the MWC it's big 3. Since the inception of the Big 3, Utah has only won the MWC once. BYU has won it twice, TCU twice, Utah once. So how are they the alpha dog of the MWC?

    I personally don't think there has been an Alpha Dog of the MWC as the Big 3 have been very equal. Yes, Utah has plateued the highest, but both TCU and BYU have been more consistent. Alpha Dog's need to be consistent, no?

    (Remember that BYU is still the MWC record holder with back to back unbeaten MWC seasons in 06 and 07? Your "Alpha Dog Utah" never managed that kind of streak in the MWC, sorry).

    Utah has brought the MWC great respect with it's BCS bowls, but basically they have mastered how to have occasional big seasons but have yet to learn consistency. Nothing you can say can change the fact that Utah has never put together a ranked season streak longer then 2 years in their entire program's history. The key word here is LONGEVITY

  • RepresentBlue
    July 6, 2010 7:27 p.m.

    @VegasCoug

    Your point about BYU's sub-par bowl record is well taken. It is definitely something they need to improve on, and I think they have made progress despite their meltdown in '08 vs Arizona. They dominated a very good Oregon team in '06, and a ranked Oregon St that came within one play of the Rose Bowl in '09.

    I readily admit that Utah has a much better looking bowl resume. Their longest active win streak and 2 BCS wins are very impressive. When will you admit that BYU has an outstanding track record of producing ranked teams stretching back over 3 decades (3 in 70's, 6 in 80's, 5 in 90's, 5 in 2000's)? Before you blindly refuse to give credit to BYU where it is due, keep in mind that prior to 2003 your beloved Utes had just ONE ranked season in their ENTIRE HISTORY! ONE! By the time Utah produced its FIRST ranked team in 1994 BYU had produced 13, including a #1, #7 and #10. And BYU has not let up, and will not going into the future regardless of what conference they or Utah ends up in.

  • RepresentBlue
    July 6, 2010 7:35 p.m.

    @Randy01

    Well said. Once again, you post a fair minded appraisal of both teams and are not afraid to give credit where it is due. I have full respect for Ute fans like yourself. I hope your fellow Ute fans can follow your example. BYU fans too.

  • VegasCoug
    July 6, 2010 7:59 p.m.

    @Randy01

    "Utah has clearly risen over the past decade, BYU has been consistent since the 1970s."

    Completely agree with this Randy, another great post that ushers in a sense of reality for both sides of the coin.

  • RepresentBlue
    July 6, 2010 8:11 p.m.

    VegasCoug,

    My 7:27pm post was supposed to be addressed to Uteology. Sorry. Long day.

  • RepresentBlue
    July 6, 2010 9:21 p.m.

    @Naval Vet

    I agree the 2004 Utes were a dominant team. MUCH better than the 2008 Utes, IMO. The 1984 Cougars were dominant also. Unfortunately neither team got to prove itself against a really quality opponent, but that should not detract from their achievements. What I find fascinating is that Utah produced its best team exactly 20 years after BYU produced its best team. I don't mean this as a knock against Utah. I just find it very interesting, especially when you consider that Utah produced its first ranked team exactly 20 years after BYU did, and the 2004 Utes came exactly 10 years after their program's first ranked season, just as the 1984 Cougars did. This peculiar little piece of common history really serves to remind me how intimately connected the two program's are, and how their successes have complimented each other. The successes of both programs are due in large measure to the intense competitive rivalry that has existed between them for nearly a century. It is unfortunate that we fans often allow it to prevent us from appreciating each other. I do appreciate the Utes, but I will always be a Cougar.

  • Uteology
    July 6, 2010 9:59 p.m.

    RepresentBlue|7:27 p.m. July 6, 2010

    The Oregon State win was impressive but that team was as good as 2004 Pitt. Oregon was worse than the 2005 7-4 Georgia Tech team that Utah thrashed. The UCLA 17-16 win was joke, for a MWC champ more was expected.

    In my book the alpha dog is the one that represents the conference on the national stage not just winning conference titles to play in Vegas. BYU wiining 5th place PAC teams just doesn't cut it. Again TCU is close 2nd and would have been the top dog if the didn't choke against Boise.

    I know it's hard to take but face facts Utah is up and comming and has done more in 7 years for the conference then BYU has. Until a mid-major finishes #1 under the current rules Utah represents the mid-major bragging rights.
    I thought it was only Jazz fans that count division titles? Back to back titles are good but I will NOT those for a 13-0 season.

  • Uteology
    July 6, 2010 10:13 p.m.

    (Remember that BYU is still the MWC record holder with back to back unbeaten MWC seasons in 06 and 07? Your "Alpha Dog Utah" never managed that kind of streak in the MWC, sorry).

    -------

    Sorry Alpha Dogs don't brag about going back to back to Vegas to play a 5th place PAC 10 team.

    To be the Alpha Dog you have to win on the national stage in January.

    Mid-major Alpa Dogs:
    Utah 2-0
    Boise 2-0

    AQ Alpha Dogs: SEC

  • Veritas Aequitas
    July 6, 2010 10:43 p.m.

    Chris B | 3:06 p.m. July 6, 2010
    "Roses vs. 3rd place in the MWC
    Should be a tough choice for recruits huh?"
    ---

    Ummmm Chris.

    Which one is Utah?
    (I'll give you a hint... it's 3rd place in MWC)
    ---

    Why is reality such a difficult thing for Utah fans to grasp?

  • Skierelmo
    July 6, 2010 10:48 p.m.

    Hey Cougar fans... Why don't a few more of you write about how pathetic we are and how hung up we are on BYU.... ON A UTES ARTICLE!!! OK Bye!!!

  • Veritas Aequitas
    July 6, 2010 10:59 p.m.

    Uteology | 9:59 p.m. July 6, 2010
    RepresentBlue | 7:27 p.m. July 6, 2010

    In my book the alpha dog is the one that represents the conference on the national stage not just winning conference titles to play in Vegas.
    ---

    First of all, who cares about your book? "Your book"
    suggests that everyone should "face facts Utah is up and comming and has done more in 7 years for the conference then BYU has", while BYU has been ranked in the TOP 25 in the nation for the past four years, and beat Utah 3 out of those 4.

    How can you ask people to face facts when you, and other UtahFans, refuse to?

    ---
    "Sorry Alpha Dogs don't brag about going back to back to Vegas to play a 5th place PAC 10 team."

    And where was Utah while BYU was representing the conference? At the Poinsettia-Almond-Cranberry Bowls.

    Dude, you lost last year. Worry about making it through a "Mid-Major" season next year without getting shut-out at UNLV...

    Worry about not getting beat at the HC by SWBU.

    You have another "Mid-Major season to get through without emabrassing the State again.

  • VegasCoug
    July 6, 2010 11:20 p.m.

    @ Uteology

    I believe that ESPN's January 23rd, 2009 article that Randy referenced above shows who the real non-AQ Alpha Dog is... remember that these rankings put out by ESPN came AFTER Utah's 2 BCS wins and therefore those Ute glory years are factored in...

    Oklahoma
    USC
    Ohio State
    Notre Dame
    Nebraska
    Alabama
    Texas
    Michigan
    Florida State
    Miami
    Penn State
    Tennessee
    LSU
    Georgia
    Florida
    UCLA
    Washington
    Georgia Tech
    Arkansas
    Texas A&M
    Auburn
    Clemson
    Colorado
    Ole Miss
    BYU

    You will notice that BYU is the only non-AQ to crack their top 25. Utah was ranked 43rd, even after their impressive 2003-2009 run.

    Again, the key is LONGEVITY. ESPN took note of the fact that BYU had several consecutive decades of excellence while Utah has only emerged in the last decade.

    I suppose though that ESPN is full of a bunch of BYU homers?

    No other sport celebrates the pageantry of tradition like college football, and the reality of the matter is Utah's football tradition is only 7 years old.

  • Randy01
    July 7, 2010 7:01 a.m.

    To all, just to put things back in perspective:

    1. The 6th ranked SEC program is still 6 spots ahead of BYU. Note to BYU fans - you can't discount this and then point to BYUs ranking. Try playing their schedule.
    2. Utah has climbed a long way, if you look back over the tracker they were way down in the 1970s and 1980s. ESPN has not published ratings specifically for the 2001-2010 period, but they would do well.
    3. Utah's tradition is more than 7 years old - it is at least twenty years old because you have to start building a tradition before it shows up in any ranking.
    4. Utah's tradition can now point to 2 BCS bowls, one against a very good Alabama team that took the NC the next year.
    5. BYU's best decade was the 1980s, ESPN has them at 10th during the 1980s and they did have some great quality wins during that time. BYU has remained consistent and steady winners since that time but has had difficulty against ranked competition.

    Congratulate each other - it really isn't that hard.



  • Naval Vet
    July 7, 2010 10:19 a.m.

    RepresentBlue:

    "The 1984 Cougars were dominant also."

    The 2004 Utes were dominant. The '84 cougars were not. Too many close games. Note:

    (1) 20-14 [Pitt, 3-7-1]
    (2) 18-13 [Hawai'i, 7-4]
    (3) 41-38 [Wyoming, 6-6]
    (4) 30-25 [Air Force, 8-4]
    (5) 24-17 [Michigan, 6-6]

    Those 5 games were won by an average of 5.4 pts, and to teams who averaged 6 wins on the year. This is not "domination".



    "I just find it very interesting, especially when you consider that Utah produced its first ranked team exactly 20 years after BYU did, and the 2004 Utes came exactly 10 years after their program's first ranked season, just as the 1984 Cougars did."

    Not quite. ybU first appeared in the final AP polls at #20 in 1977 [tied at #16 w/ North Texas St. in the UPI]. Utah's first appearance was after their 1964 Liberty Bowl season, where they tied Penn State at #14 in the UPI [the AP only ranked 10 teams from '62 to '67]. Utah first appeared in the AP poll in 1994 at #10 [#8 in the USA Today poll].

  • Naval Vet
    July 7, 2010 10:32 a.m.

    VegasCoug:

    "I believe that ESPN's January 23rd, 2009 article that Randy referenced above shows who the real non-AQ Alpha Dog is"

    I believe Phil Steele published an article July 2nd, 2010 -- a bit more recent than ESPN -- that stated:

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    "The MWC has been the best non-BCS conference the last few years...Here are my overall rankings for MWC Team of the Decade.

    1. Utah
    2. TCU
    3. ybU
    4. Colorado St.
    5. Air Force
    6. New Mexico...

    Utah gets the nod here despite being #3 in overall win %. What put the Utes over the top was their two undefeated seasons in ’04 and ’08 in which they won two BCS bowls and finished in the AP Top 5 each year...Another impressive feat for the Utes was they won all their bowl games in the past decade including 5 over BCS conference teams!"

  • patriot
    July 7, 2010 10:36 a.m.

    The answer to this question is really pretty obvious - YES!! Of course Utah's recruiting will improve.. good grief this is silly. The real question the Dick Harmon is posing here is will Utah get the best LDS kids now ? The answer is again YES! BYU will be relegated to getting the left overs - the best LDS athletes remaining after Utah grabs their desired share. So the flip side of this question is - will BYU recruiting be hurt? Again the answer is YES. One program is going upward and the other is in decline. You decide which is which.

  • Naval Vet
    July 7, 2010 10:54 a.m.

    VegasCoug:

    Phil Steel [cont.]:

    “Going into last year, TCU was #3 on my list but thanks to a tremendous season, the Horned Frogs jump to #2...The Frogs have 5 straight bowl appearances winning four of them and has four AP Top 25 finishes the last five years! TCU also has won 3 of 5 against BYU including the last two by a 70-14 margin, which gave them the slight nod over the Cougars.

    BYU did have 5 seasons from 2000-06 with 6 or more losses...the Cougars...do not have any BCS appearances and Top 10 finishes like TCU and Utah.”

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    So there you have it!
    MWC Alpha Dog: Utah
    1st Runner-up: TCU

    The MWC's inaugural season was 1999. In '99, there was a 3-way tie for the Conference Championship; Utah held the Head-to-Head advantage to ybU in that season, as well as a 6-5 Head-to-Head advantage as MWC members, and outscoring the tdS Head-to-Head 289 to 236.

    The Utes also have a 3-2 edge over TCU.

    Edge: Utah

  • patriot
    July 7, 2010 10:56 a.m.

    BYU has two years to get out of the MWC and join the Big12 otherwise they face a sharp decline in their overall athletic offering. Utah will grab the lion share of the best recruits now and the Y faces an up hill battle to remain competitive.

  • VegasCoug
    July 7, 2010 1:54 p.m.

    @ naval vet

    1. I'll take ESPN and their rankings of all-time prestige over Phil Steele and his MWC rankings.

    2. "Utah gets the nod here despite being #3 in overall win %" This re-inforces the point I always say about Utah. They have reached a very high watermark in recent years but have still not learned consistency (i.e. never produced a longer ranked season streak longer then 2 years in their entire history)

    The other thing the Utes haven't learned yet that BYU has mastered = LONGEVITY (i.e. they only have five 10+ win seasons in their entire history).

    Yes, Utah has had a great run since Urb changed the culture up on the hill. Only time will tell if they can keep it up... and 7 or 8 win seasons in the PAC won't do much for them.

    Now, over the next decade if the Utes are consistently one of the top 3 teams in the PAC then I will tip my cap and give them their due.

    We shall see...



  • GoUtah
    July 7, 2010 1:59 p.m.

    @patriot

    Your posts are straight forward and without the emotional ties. I have to agree, even though I'm a Utah fan, the obvious answer is "yes." As much as TDS fans don't want to hear it, Utah's joining the PAC will have a positive impact on the recruiting.

    This really is a silly article by a tds beat-writer. Dick needs to stick with what he knows best and stop writing about the obvious.

  • fyre
    July 7, 2010 2:50 p.m.

    Here is reality for you "haters" spewing every bit of tangent laced debate you can to get away from the simple facts:

    -Utah is going to the Pac 10 / Pac 12. BYU is NOT.

    -BYU is going the other direction in athletics... maybe out of a conference...maybe no more NCAA athletics like Ricks did.

    -Colorado will become Utah's new rivalry most likely.

    -Recruiting is improving for Utah...athletically minded parents want their sons and daughters to go to a college with a future in an ever important conference based system.

    Sorry BYU...but I think it is more important to educate the people of the world and LDS kids from around the nation than to have a football team that creates such controversy and occasionally spews hate at its fellow men. Its better off this way believe me.

    Don't worry Bronco may get a job at another mid-major...Whittingham already has a great Def Coordinator but Anderson at USU may hire him.

    And now you can begin with the hate and historically irrelevent attacks in 5...4...3...2...1

  • VegasCoug
    July 7, 2010 2:54 p.m.

    @ GoUtah and Patriot

    "Utah's joining the PAC will have a positive impact on the recruiting" this is certainly true but only to the degree of how well Utah does in the PAC. If they are consistently an upper echelon PAC team then recruiting will be very positive. If they are consistently a 6-8 win team then I see the PAC recruiting edge as marginal.

    "Utah will grab the lion share of the best recruits now and the Y faces an up hill battle to remain competitive." Your prediction on BYU struggling to recruit and remain competitive is a far stretch, especially when one considers that BYU has been beating BCS schools for recruits consistently during the entire Bronco era. The 2010 team has 33 players on the roster who had BCS scholarship offers (this is official OFFERS, not just merely being "recruited by")

    Just this past season BYU had a top 25 rated recruiting class by both Scout.com and ESPN. This type of recruiting will not simply dissolve just because Utah is in the PAC now.

    Lastly, Utah has been targeting more and kids that do not fit BYU's recruiting model anyways.


  • Naval Vet
    July 7, 2010 3:34 p.m.

    VegasCoug:

    "They have reached a very high watermark in recent years but have still not learned consistency (i.e. never produced a longer ranked season streak longer then 2 years in their entire history)"

    It just so happens that the tdS has never produced a postseason winning streak beyond 2 yrs. The Utes have won a nation-leading 9 in a row. So does this mean the tdS hasn't learned consistency either, or does it mean that the tdS consistently loses in the postseason?

    In your "storied" history, the tdS has only beaten 2 ranked teams in the postseason; and both came by way of miracle last minute 4th Qtr rallies:

    1981 [Holiday]: #12 ybU edges #20 SMU 46-45
    1996 [Cotton]: #5 ybU edges #17 Kansas St. 19-15

    In both games, ybU was the higher ranked/favored team heading into the Bowl.

    The tdS has played their way to a 2-13-1 record vs. ranked teams going all the way back to 1976. The Utes are 3-1 going back to 1994.

    Seems to me the tdS only achieved their ranking via quantity [rather than quality] of wins vs. weak SOS.

  • Naval Vet
    July 7, 2010 3:48 p.m.

    VegasCoug:

    ESPN did not rank ybU's recruiting class in the Top-25. That's just another zoobie myth that tdS fans are so prone to believe as fact. Scout.com is bogus. This is the same recruiting site that rated our 3-star dual-threat QB [Blechen] as a LB, and failed to recognize that they left some recruit signees off their list entirely. Obviously, they don't a very good job in personnel evaluation.

  • VegasCoug
    July 7, 2010 4:47 p.m.

    This thread is now stale so I will officially retire from this thread with this post and see you Utes on the next article.

    Peace!

    My parting shot...

    BYU PROPS = just remember this little number my crimson friends.... 15 to 5. That's right, 15 10+ win seasons by BYU in the last 30 years to Utah's 5 in the same period (a 3 to 1 margin all while playing in the same conferences with the same level of competition).

    TIP MY CAP TO UTAH = They have a superior post-season resume to BYU. Their bowl win % and BCS bowl wins are impressive.

    See that Naval Ute, I was able to give Utah some credit where credit is due. You really ought to try the same, I know you can do it. It will be therap-UTE-ic for you...

  • fyre
    July 7, 2010 5:14 p.m.

    VegasCoug

    Oh no... We forgot how superior you are to us that you get to decide that this thread is stale... or is it because you got caught on your fake pro-ybu stats?

    Please don't go we need you and your false stats to keep us entertained...oh wait I forgot about your irrelevancy as a team in the last decade...ask yourself: why is Utah going big time in the PAC 10?

    No seriously Have fun in the MWC with TCU and BSU...oh and this year watch the Falcons make you even more irrelevant on the second game of the season.

  • Uteology
    July 7, 2010 6:21 p.m.

    VegasCoug | 2:54 p.m. July 7, 2010
    @ GoUtah and Patriot

    "Utah's joining the PAC will have a positive impact on the recruiting" this is certainly true but only to the degree of how well Utah does in the PAC. If they are consistently an upper echelon PAC team then recruiting will be very positive. If they are consistently a 6-8 win team then I see the PAC recruiting edge as marginal.


    -------------

    Earth to Zoob Nation...

    Since 2005 Utah (19 players drafted in the NFL) is already developing talent like Oregon (21 players).

    But not like USC (45 players) and certainly not not like Washington State (8 players) which is more like BYU (9 players) and Boise (8 players).

    It doesn't take a genius to figure out playing in the PAC-10 will only improve current recruiting.

    What will hurt recruiting is if KW decides to leave. But since he didn't take the SEC Tennessee offer I am assuming he's happy where he is.

  • Utes4Ever
    July 7, 2010 9:21 p.m.

    "Will move to Pac-10 affect Utah Utes recruiting?"

    Dude ... have your eyes been closed since Dr. Young signed the PAC 10 agreement or are you just a simpleton? Really? Look at what has happened since the PAC 10 announcement.

  • GoUtah
    July 7, 2010 9:57 p.m.

    @Uteology

    One of the many great benefits as a member of the PAC will be Utah's ability to retain good coaching. Utah will have more money to keep good talent like KW. I can't foresee Kyle going anywhere. Utah will have the necessary funding.

  • jotzugel
    July 8, 2010 9:14 a.m.

    The real questions is how will this affect BYU's recruiting.

    The Utah recruiting question is obvious.

  • Hank Pym SLC, UT
    July 4, 2011 3:10 p.m.

    re: Portland Trail Blazers | 7:27 a.m. July 3, 2010

    Ducks make good Tiger chow.

    Auburn rules!