Uh Scott....are you aware that NOBODY wants BYU....NOBODY! Their pompous
attitude and religious drama is more than anybody would care to include in their
Uh Scott....are you aware that the only reason Utah is even considered for
expansion, is because BYU, the ELITE UNIVERSITY in the MTN WEST, won't play on
sundays?... Simple as that! I guess it's better to be lucky than good!
Uh JD... are you aware that when you say NOBODY wants BYU, especially written
twice and in capital letters, that the primary example of that not being true is
Utah? Utah has moved conferences multiple times WITH BYU, constantly sticking
with them. Am I saying they do it solely to be in the same conference as them?
Obviously not. But they have consistently recognized that being in the same
conference as their natural rival and the biggest non-BCS cash cow over the past
few decades has been to their benefit... And while you're correct that the
liberal west coast has an aversion to adding BYU, don't think that same dilemma
exists everywhere else. Elsewhere, particularly the Big 12 in this instance, if
you can bring money and competition they could care less about the religious
Using Scott's logic, SDSU is a lock.
"but like ND, BYU has a following spread across the US and in many foreign
countries" XPat,Another misguided comment coming from
the vacuum. A BYU following is nearly 100% religion related. You would have to
search long and far to find a Non LDS who actually is aware of BYU outside of
Utah. As for Notre Dame, They have a FOOTBALL following that has transcended
religion. Trust me, Notre Dame fans don’t use the religion card like the
TDS. Infact, over 50% of there undergraduate studentbody is non catholic.I would compare BYU more so to Oral Roberts.
Xpat, are you seriously comparing ND's national following with BYU's LDS
following. It requires that the question be asked, "What color is the sky in
your world?" Your logic assumes all 6 million care and follow BYU. Having
lived in Oregon, Wyoming, Illinois, Iowa and now in Utah and an active member of
the church, I can say with confidence and experience that outside of Utah County
the regular Sunday attending LDS member isn't as fanatical as you would have us
believe about BYU or Utah for that matter. Are there some, sure but please
don't try to convince us that day to day life comes to a halt when BYU can be
seen on TV out of Utah. Fact is many don't follow as closely as you.
Conference expansion is about many things including TV's. But it seems that
DNews writers are quick to point out all the reasons why conference expansion
shouldn't happen for Utah if it can't for BYU. Will one or both ever be invited
to a better conference? Who knows. But the jealously of a possible invite for
Utah is removing rational thought for some.
hedgehog, Curious comment, as someone who is not from Utah and does
business daily with the rest of the US, it seems to me that BYU is well known.
When others learn that I am LDS, frequently the conversation goes to BYU
football. Perhaps to avoid the religious part of the conversation. Maybe you're just speaking on your own experiences also. My personal
experience is very different, certainly not at the level of a Notre Dame but
well known just the same.
XPAT, MAGIC HAPPENS et.al. According to Nielson Research, who does
the TV ratings - BYU football's National draw is 1 to 3 million homes depending
on the quality of the game.
Included in BYU's following are those who want to see BYU die.
One other interesting stat: Of the D1 football schools that are not in a BCS AQ
conference there are five, tier 1 "National" Universities that have a student
body population over 20,000. Of those five, three are in the MWC - BYU, Colorado
St. and Utah. The other two are Ohio and Buffalo.
Hedgehog:Here's a thought. I'm from Kentucky, remember that school
that beats Utah in the NCAA tournament almost every time they play each other.
When people there find out what state I was in for college and especially what
school they automatically start talking about the high quality of BYU football.
No one who talks with me even mentions Utah. There are plenty of people who know
about BYU football and give it the respect it is due.
"When others learn that I am LDS, frequently the conversation goes to BYU
football"Coyote120The point being is that ND Football
encompasses a far greater fan base than simply just their religious affinity. ND
fans reach every demographic/religious sector nationwide. BYU is a niche
commodity (rhymes with oddity) that doesn’t lend itself to growth outside
of its zealot followers. You would be hard pressed to find a BYU fan not
associated to the LDS Church — they don’t exsist . The same cannot
be said for ND. The ignorant attempt to mention BYU to ND in the
same breath is sad and laughable
Fed Employee,No doubt people associate things to states/regions.People outside of the state associate Utah to Mormons/BYU just as they
think potato when you mention Idaho — what’s your point?My point is that just because people have heard of BYU doesn’t equate to
actually caring about BYU.
BYU command markets especially in Pac-10 footprint. During the 80's I lived in
the Seattle area and BYU came to town to play the Huskies in BB. There was a
lot of interest in the game and so it was moved to the Seattle center. Much to
the Huskies surprise there were more BYU fans at the game than Husky fans.I have traveled to several away games and there is always a good LDS
showing - even on the east coast. It is likely that BYU is the engine of the MT
and the most important draw. Many teams in the conference consider BYU there
most or next to the most important game of the year.Is sports all
about fan support - we will see.Traveler
hedgehog,Your view that BYU fans are predominately LDS is correct.
However, you said - "You would have to search long and far to find a
Non LDS who actually is aware of BYU outside of Utah"That statement
has no validity at all - of course you can call me ignorant; but, my experience
tells me that BYU is well known outside of Utah, those people may not be fans
but they know of BYU football.
Scott et al: It all seems like a red herring by the BCS. Otherwise, please
explain to me such mighty BCS television markets as Oregon State (Corvallis),
Iowa State (Ames), Washington State (Pullman), Baylor (Waco), Iowa (Iowa City),
Oklahoma State (Stillwater), Arizona (Tucson), Texas Tech (Lubbock), Arkansas
(Fayetteville), LSU (Baton Rouge), Florida State (Tallahassee), West Virgina
(Morgantown), Virginia (Charlottesville), etc.The list goes on and
on and even if you include nearby metro areas (Iowa State = Des Moines) or even
entire states (West Virginia or Nebraska), the Utah/BYU market would seem to far
exceed many of these small city/small market teams.Nothing but
excuses from the BCS to exclude those on the outside-some of whom have far
better arguments for inclusion than those already in the mix. What a shame.
Utah brings nothing to the table to the Pac 10, nor would they bring anything to
the Big 12. The pac 10 jsut made a new TV deal which will make it
even harder to expand. BYU would be a good fit in the Big 12, Utah
does not really fit in anywhere. Utah is not Pac 10 popular nor does
it have the gloamor and 'coolness' of the Pac 10. Utah is not a big name across
the nation. At least BYU has a big fan base up and down the west coast and even
Texas, BYU has a better chance of going to the Big 12 than Utah to the Pac 10.
hedgehog,You're so phony.You said,"You would have
to search long and far to find a Non LDS who actually is aware of BYU outside of
Utah"Yet as soon as someone refutes such a ridiculous comment and
blows it out of the water, you go on about "but my point is this...or my point
is that". Don't you see yet how immature and ridiculous your blinding hate for
BYU is?Fact is, people outside of Utah and outside the LDS Church
know who BYU is and respect the football program. When you have, since 1974, 29
bowl appearances, 17 top-25 finishes and one National Championship, people are
going to notice. To say otherwise is just being spiteful.One
personal example is that I travel internationally for work. One time I was just
outside Mexico City, wearing a pullover that had only the signature "Y" on it. A
Mexican came up to me and immediately said, in Spanish, "You like BYU Football?"
Turns out this guy loved American College Football, which most don't follow down
there, and of course he knew who the BYU Cougars were. Not LDS. Not even
American. Yet he know.
re Alpine Blue. Yeah universities are in small markets but they take the big
city, e.g.Oregon and Oregon State - PortlandWazzou and
Wash. - Seattle, SpokaneLSU - New Orleans, Baton RougeNebraska - OmahaArizona, ASU - Phoenix, Tucson
Utah + Colorado = 2.5 million tv sets = 20% increase in market share for the Pac
10. Additionally, both markets are growing. When the SEC expanded, they took
Arkansas and South Carolina- not exactly enormous television markets.Additionally, Utah and Colorado fit well with the Pac 10 academically. BYU
does not fit in the Pac 10 academically at all. Lack of research, lack of
freedom of thought, lack of freedom of expression, lack of FREEDOM- those
aspects of BYU do not exactly mesh with Cal Berkely, Stanford, UCLA, etc.
What hedgehog is his crimson-colored, LDS-church hating, BYU-hating tirade fails
to recognize is that because of the LDS church's tie-in to BYU, BYU's students
and alumni are spread out over the entire country.Two-thirds of
BYU's students come from outside Utah and the majority of BYU graduates move
away from Utah after they graduate.When BYU played Oklahoma in the
Dallas Cowboys Stadium last year, there were thousands of BYU fans in
attendance. A large percentage of those BYU fans did not travel from Utah.There are also a lot of BYU fans throughout the United States and the
rest of the world who've never attended BYU. The fact that the vast
majority of BYU are LDS is inconsquential. They're still BYU fans. They still
watch BYU sports. They still buy products advertised during sports
broadcasts.Utah, Nevada, California, Idaho, Arizona and even the
metro Washington DC area all have large numbers of BYU fans.In other
words, they're part of the television market for BYU sports and will be part of
the audience for any conference in which BYU plays.
Any savvy college sports television marketer would seriously question whether
Utah's television market, without including BYU, would be even half the actual
size of the Utah market.Sorry Utah fans, but BYU OWNS the Utah
college sports television advertising market.That's not
hyperbole.That's not arrogance.That's simply a fact!
Ute fans seems to revel in the idea that Utah is being considered for the Pac-10
and BYU is not. Why do you think Utah has the better chance? If it's because of
the religious school and Sunday play aspect, then I won't argue that. If you say
it's because they're not a "research school", how far down the list of
priorities is that? Seriously? That's what will ultimately swing the pendulum in
any school's favor, the fact that they have a lot of research? I doubt it.
Here's my list of most to least important when considering expansion:1. Local TV Market2. Strength of Football Program3. Strength of
Basketball Program4. Facilities5. National TV Market and Fanbase
(exposure)6. Academics (undergrad and grad)7. Strength of all Other
Sports (Olympic and other)8. ResearchComparing BYU and Utah,
1. Push 2. Push (current status) 3. BYU 4. BYU 5.
BYU 6. Push (BYU wins in undergrad, Utah in grad). 7. BYU 8.
UtahSo why would the Pac-10 pick Utah over BYU then? Because of the
conservative nature of BYU and Sunday play. Care to refute?
Re: Portland Trail Blazers Utah brings nothing to the table and the
PAC-10 has a new TV deal? Interesting!!!I thought the PAC-10 hired
a consulting firm and are looking at a partnership with the Big12 as a
negotiating tool for their next TV deal that will be finalized later this year.
BCS negotiations also take place over the next 2 years. Utah's (2)
BCS appearences/wins would move with them to a new conference. They would
become the second highest rated PAC-10 team over the last 5 years behind USC
when this is negotiated based on recent success. They would also lower the MWC
standing in these same negotiations. We all know football controls decisions and
the MWC has been gaining ground on the PAC-10 over the past 3 years. Scott is missing the growth of the SLC market in this article that helps both
Utah and BYU. There is no reason for the PAC10 or Big12 to look at markets they
are already in or stable markets. Denver and SLC might be the only markets that
fit what they need.
It's interesting that BYU plays men's volleyball in the Mountain Pacific Sports
Federation (MPSF) with USC, UCLA, and Stanford and BYU's LDS culture, no Sunday
play, and "academics" are never an issue.The schools compete in
volleyball. The fact that they have to schedule the MPSF tournament so that it
isn't played on Sunday is a minor inconvenience at most.The PAC 10
would do well to consider all that BYU brings to the table in quality of
athletics, in fan support, in quality of academics, before letting their
liberally-biased attitudes cloud their decision-making on conference
expansion.Utah would be a good addition to the PAC 10, but, overall,
Utah isn't even close to BYU in the overall quality and depth of their athletic
programs or in the size of their fan base, the two key factors PAC 10
administrators should be weighing in conference expansion plans.The
PAC 10's loss in overlooking BYU will be the MWC's or Big 12's gain.
Re: MenaceToSocietyWhat I find ironic is people like you who say
that WE are the ones that are naive. At BYU there is no freedom of thought, no
freedom of expression? That's utterly untrue and unfortunately the misperception
of many that have never been there and have never tried to understand what BYU
is all about. I know, you can't teach certain subjects that are in
complete contradiction with Church teachings. How hypocritical would it be for
the church to allow a professor to openly oppose it's doctrine? What a good
professor at BYU will do is hold an open discussion about such controversial
themes to help make sense of why doctrine is the way it is, just like a physics
teacher teaches about the absoluteness of the law of gravity. Such discussion is
supposed to foster "free thinking" of the individual with the idea that they
have to ultimately decide for themselves what is truth. Just because the church
may be anti-abortion and opposed to homosexual marriage does not mean we're not
open minded and can't have constructive discussion about such things.
Re: MenaceToSociety,I do agree, however, that BYU does not exactly
mesh with the Cal Berkely's of the world. And if that's the type of school the
Pac-10 wants, then assuredly BYU won't be going. Utah is way too conservative in
re: UteManYou and I both know that the chances of Utah returning to
a BCS game anytime soon will drop significantly as soon as Utah accepts an
invitation to join the PAC 12.All you have to do is look at what
happened to the Arizona schools to see what Utah's fate in the PAC 12 would
be.Arizona has NEVER played in the Rose Bowl in the 30 years they've
been in the PAC 10.Arizona State has only played in TWO Rose
Bowls.SIXTY years of playing in the PAC 10 between them, and the
Arizona schools have only played in TWO Rose Bowls.Rational Utah
fans should consider that before jumping on the band wagon to join the PAC
12.Do Utah fans really want to see the Utes spending the next 30
years mired in the middle of the PAC 12 standings with only a slight chance of
occassionally playing in the Rose Bowl, or, being the PAC 12 representative in
the eventual NCAA college football playoffs?Utah hasn't won a road
game against a PAC 10 opponent since 1996.If Utah can't beat good
PAC 12 teams on the road...
Re: UteMan,What BYU and Utah have done in the past matters not one
bit. The Pac-10 only cares about what the respective programs will do for the
conference in the future. Why would the Pac-10 care about Utah's BCS
appearances? That would only matter if the Pac-10 was trying to attain or retain
BCS AQ status, which is not the least bit in jeopardy. They don't care about
Utah's BCS games, only maybe the exposure that Utah now enjoys because of them,
just like they wouldn't care about BYU's NC, their 29 bowl games or 17 top-25
finishes either. What they do care about is the bright future both programs
currently have. Don't kid yourself in believing otherwise.I've said
before that I think both BYU and Utah should stay where they are in the MWC.
They should add Boise State and their one BCS appearance in the current 4 year
cycle that will further enhance the conference and hopefully make the MWC an AQ
Conference. Can you imagine being top-dog of the MWC with AQ status? Much better
than an also-ran in the Pac-10.
Re: MenaceToSocietyUtah + Colorado - BYU = about 1.75 million TV
setsIf you really think that the BYU fans living in Utah and
Colorado are going to tune in to Utah and Colorado football and basketball
games, you're as ignorant as your belief that BYU's academics are a real tipping
point for PAC 10 expansion plans.
Ute ManThe PAC 10 has hired Larry Scott and contracted with CCA for
the new TV deal.But the 2 BCS wins, no matter how impressed the Utes
are with themselves, will probably not get them into the PAC-10.Expansion take 10 yes votes from PAC-10 Chancellors. Several have said that
they will not consider religous school, so no BYU. However, with the ACC getting
a new contract, and the aggressive bidding by both Fox and ESPN, they more than
doubled their previous contract. The PAC-10 expects to do the same.That would put them in the $110 mil range, or $11 mil per University. To add
two schools, and go from a 1/10th split to a 1/12th split, the TV deal would
need at least $22 mil more for each school to keep the same cut. Many feel the
$110 mil is the max regarless of PAC 10 or 12.In cash strapped CA,
AZ, WA, (housing bubble) the Universities need every cent. The chancellors are
not going to lose money.If it's about the money (it is) Utah is not
going anywhere.BYU might go Big 12, leaving Utah in MWC.
All the rationalization in the world will not change the reality that the PAC10
does not want the Cougars for a variety of reasons, both academic and sports
related. The bottom line, Y-ners, is that you are blowing smoke and creating
illusions that given their repetitive nature are making y'all seem more and more
If I remember correctly, there are 3 criteria when evaluating a conference for
AQ status in a 4-year cycle (we're in between years 3 and 4 of the current
cycle):1. Number (percentage) of teams ranked in the top-10 each of
the four years.2. Number (percentage) of teams ranked in the top-25 each
of the four years.3. Ranking of every team in the conference, top to
bottom, each of the four years.I believe each of the three
categories are given equal weight. You see, BCS bowl game appearances have
nothing to do with it. Utah's 2008 final ranking is what matters. Boise State's
last two final rankings is actually worth more to the conference. That's why the
MWC should extend the invite now to Boise State to joing the MWC for the 2011
football season. That way they can clean up on the WAC again for another season
and then transfer that success to the MWC's resume. The conference should also
look to drop the Wyomings and Colorado States that are really weighing us down
and will definitely influence AQ status because of category 3.
Re: UtefanWhat is delusional about what I posted? Can you even
refute one thing? If you take the religious/conservative and Sunday play aspects
out of the equation, what does Utah possess that overall makes them more
attractive to the Pac-10? Research? Come on, certainly Ute fans are more
intelligent than that. Pull up the US News and World Report rankings of
Universities. Academically Utah is ranked some 50 places behind BYU. So stop
with the boloney about Utah being academically superior, like that really
matters in the Pac-10 (i.e Oregon State, Washington State).To rehash
the same old thing, if Utah were to be chosen to go to the Pac-10 over BYU, it
would be on religious and Sunday play reasons only. Which I'm fine with. The
last thing I'd want to see is BYU compromise its principles just to go the
Pac-10. I'd like to see BYU go to a big conference (even though staying in the
MWC could be lucrative), just not on those grounds.Care to refute
anything I've said, or do those pesky little facts just get in the way of a good
UTE fanNobody is, or should be claiming that BYU is going to the
PAC-10. The Left Coast Liberal Schools chancellors have stated that they will
not accept a private religous school. No ND, BYU, TCU, SMU etc. They need 10 yes
votes for expansion. One school can veto any expansion. BYU is not going to the
PAC-10.Now, your delusional belief that Utah's BCS invites means
everything does not mean anything to the PAC 10 because they send a school to
the BCS every year. BCS invites do not impress them. That would be similar to
SWBU saying the MWC would expand to include them because they beat Utah at Utah.
It is impressive to SWBU fans, but not the other schools in the MWC (OK, poor
example, but fun to mention SWBU anyway).Utah does not bring
enough revenue potential and the PAC 10 will most likely remain the PAC 10. And
without a traveling partner, the logistics pose a geographic negative...It would be silly to say never, but like Lloyd Christmas (A Utah Fan)
would say, the Utes do have a chance.
Actually BYU's national/international TV market is much bigger than the LDS
market. It also includes a giant market of people who love to see BYU lose. That
is also true of ND. As far as BYU being unknown outside of UT. That
is a laugh. BYU is well known and talked about in the Big 12 and the SEC by the
media and also fans of various schools. That automatically happens
when you are ranked. People watch the rankings. Most of them are hoping that you
lose. They will also tune in to see how good you are IF they can find a game.
The MTN TV coverage is a curse to BYU.
Re: UtefanI agree 100% The only fact that I care about
is that Utah is being considered for expansion. I could care less what happens
down south and welcome the opportunity for Utah to be in the PAC-12 in 2011.
Yet as soon as someone refutes such a ridiculous comment and blows it out of the
water, you go on about "but my point is this...or my point is that".Giantfan,I’ll just assume you’re a special needs
individual incapable of following a post stream. You’d rather respond to
specific words (or shiny objects) than the context of a post(s) in its entirety.
My point is simply that it’s arrogant and sad for tds to attempt to equate
the BYzoo fan base to Notre Dames. Nowhere have I see a scrap of logic that can
contain ND and BYU in the same sentence. BYU is extremely niche
— requiring support from its legions at church, football stadiums and
airports. Notre Dame is a Universal football brand not limited to religious
ideology. Notre Dame has broad appeal BYU does not. Keep your fan base
comparisons to similar programs — like Oral Roberts.
Utah will not be in the PAC 10. Pac 10 just made a new TV deal that will make it
very difficult to join. The only confernce[s] that will being expanding are Big
Ten with either Nebraska or Notre Dame and /or Big 12 to fill the void of the
loss of NEB. I think the Big 12 should look at BYU and TCU IF NEB goes to the
Big Ten..Lame Ute fans think they know how exactly what is
going to happen.
"The Left Coast Liberal Schools chancellors have stated that they will not
accept a private religous school. No ND, BYU, TCU, SMU etc."There
you go again Giantfan, attempting to lump BYU in with ND. The PAC 10 would snap
up Notre Dame so fast their heads would spin. Again, keep your comparisons to
re:Ute Man / FanOf course you are being considered, as well as BYU
for the Big 12, and Boise for MWC.I also considered having a Big Mac
for lunch today, but had a Crown Burger instead. The Big Mac, I'm sure, welcomed
the opportunity to be my lunch.Unfortunately, Utah will not be in
the PAC-10 in 2011, and the Big Mac is not in my belly.Peace out.
Hedgehog:Actually, I knew a man who recently got his PhD from Notre
Dame. When he found out where I went to college he had nothing but praise for
BYU and the athletics. Let's see...who has more leverage behind deciding who BYU
should be compared to? You or a man with a PhD from Notre Dame? I'll put more
faith in the latter than the former.
Hedgehead""The Left Coast Liberal Schools chancellors have stated that
they will not accept a private religous school. No ND, BYU, TCU, SMU etc."There you go again Giantfan""There you go again, so ready to
spin, and angry, you have no clue who you are even replying to. That was not
giant Fan, that was me, Iand I'll explain this so you can understand the
comparison, and why it was made.The presidents and chancellors of
the secular Pac-10 schools are wary of joining forces with a church-affiliated
school (any church-affiliated school). They have even confided this to private
sources.ND, BYU, TCU, and SMU are all church-affiliated schools. See
the connection.Lighten up.
I am one who strongly hopes BYU and Utah remain in the same conference. To be
honest, we all look really silly tripping over each other trying to prove how
much better we are than the other, but fact is, we have a symbionic
relationship. We feed off of each other. Always have, always will. Wherever
one goes, I hope the other follows. Frankly, I hope we both stick in the MWC
and beat the garbage BCS.
It is a bigoted person who hates others because of their religion. If you're
Christian, please follow his teachings. Utah is a great school but you degrade
it and yourself when you show your childish contempt for BYU and Mormons. The
LDS Church teaches me to love my neighbors and my enemies, regardless, as the
Savior taught. I am an Idaho BYU fan, millions outside of Utah are
fans. I will assure you that I also know a number of fans who are not LDS that
follow BYU football very closely. As for me, I was not LDS when I
went to Ricks (before BYU Idaho). I said I would never join the Mormons or the
Catholics. I was wrong in my prejustice. Studying the New Testement, I found
the LDS Church follows its teachings more closely than any other church. I also
found members to be very warm and accepting. The attendance at BYU
sports events is much higher than most schools. I would like to see the polls
when a BYU football game is on national coverage. If BYU received regular
national TV coverage there would soon be many new fans.
hedgehog,Like I said before, you are a lightweight. So are you not
responsible for things you say? Did you or did you not say "You would have to
search long and far to find a Non LDS who actually is aware of BYU outside of
Utah"? Was that just hyperbole? Don't be so surprised how easily people can
refute such ridiculous comments. I believe your post was in response to someone
else saying "but like ND, BYU has a following spread across the US and in many
foreign countries". What's wrong with that? Why do you construe that to mean he
said BYU is as big as and has as big a following as Notre Dame? You guys just
love to take out of context anything BYUs fan have to say to try and make it out
to be something it's not. Answer me this one question: Who has
the larger fanbase or following outside the state of Utah?a. BYUb.
UtahHere's a secret, the answer is fact, not opinion. If you answer
b. we know you're dishonest, game over. If you answer a. then what was wrong
with the original comment?
Re: Big_BenI'm not sure what 'symbionic' means. Was that a show from
the 80's? A spin-off to Lee Major's Million Dollar Man or something?Anyway, I agree with you 100%. BYU and Utah certainly do benefit from each
other. Speaking of the 80's, if there was a time when the rivalry could've been
broken up, that was it. Certainly Utah did nothing for BYU, at the time. It
would be too bad now, however, to see the rivalry go, even though it's gotten
down right toxic lately.
re: Portland Trail Blazers @ 10h36 amSuperb analysis and logic.
Let's see:SLC/Provo = # 31Spokane (Wazzou) = # 76New Orleans/BR = # 51 + # 95Omaha/Lincoln = # 76 (admitted NU national
brand)South Bend = # 91 (ND national brand)Tucson = # 66Des Moines/Ames = # 72Fayetteville MTA = # 100Waco/Bryan/Temple =
# 89Iowa City MTA = # 88Lansing = # 115Columbia, MO = # 135
(KC/STL pro teams + KU + IU)Lubbock = # 143 (don't forget Amarillo #
131)Gainesville = # 160Syracuse = # 83Charlottesville = #
183Madison = # 85Knoxville = # 59 (another state/national brand)Using your logic, we can totally discount all of rural Utah, plus most
of south Idaho, and part of AZ in the potential BYU TV audience.Personally attended BYU away games at the Naval Academy, the Cotton Bowl
(K-State + SMU), UCLA, Dallas vs. OU, Notre Dame, TCU, Tulsa, at the Meadowlands
vs Boston College, etc. and noted BYU contingents upwards of 25,000+ in several
of those venues-often times numbering more fans than the home team (SMU,
Tulsa).No matter how much you may hate BYU, you can never convince
me that BYU does not have a national following.Especially from those
of you-who can not even fill up RES.
Hedgehog,Does Oral Roberts even play football? Let's be serious, BYU
could be more closely compared to Notre Dame than they could be to Oral Roberts.
How ironic that you blast someone else for supposedly making an unequal
comparison by making an even more unequal comparison.
sorry giantfan, yeah, it was supposed to be symbiotic, which basically means
jointly beneficial, even essential. and i apologize for hedgehog,
he is clueless.
Notre Dame and BYU both have national championships. I'd compare Utah to Oral
Roberts but I think that even Oral Roberts could score on UNLV.
Big BenWhat, are you trying to ruin our day. You are making solid
observations and you posts are unbiased and... dare I say... backed with
evidence...Good to read your posts today.
re:Xpat"You should be more upset about Utes and SWBU being mentioned
in the same sentence."I think it is SWBU who gets embarassed being
mentioned in the same sentence as Boylen's Utes.
HeadHogSWBU is a church-affiliated school.So I guess the
PAC-10 would not consider ND, BYU, TCU, SMU. and SWBU for expansion, even though
SWBU has proven they would compete better in the PAC-10 in Basketball than Utah.
Comparing BYU to ND is a little ridiculous, but I attend a BIG 10 school and
lots of sports people know BYU. LaVell is a legend, and Penn State was in their
FB glory days right at the same time as BYU (PSU Natn'l champs '82 and '86).
True, nobody "cares" that much about BYU, but plenty of people know about BYU
and their football tradition. Xpat, you might want to calm down.
You're making some turrible arguments...
To: HedgehogIt is just as true that BYU does not have the broad
(+non religious) fan base that ND does, just like it's crazy to equate them to
Oral Roberts Univ. fans.The FACT of the matter is that BYU, even
though it's mostly LDS, DOES have a broad fan base across the country. Broad
enough to sell TV markets and especially fill stadiums. And this has been true
for OVER 30 YEARS.I'm from Florida. About as far away from Utah as
you can get in the US. I went to BYU and came home for Christmas in 76 with
ticket for me and my Dad for the Tangerine Bowl game against Okla. St.. There
were, in the old Tangerine Bowl Stadium (now Citrus Bowl), 14 "equally" section,
4 on the east side, 2 in the end zone and 8 (4 up and 4 down) on the west side.
Okla, St. comprised two and a half sections. Navy personel were in the end
zone. The ENTIRE 8 sections of the west side were BYU fans.The
media and everyone were stunned by this. BYU doesn't have to TRAVEL well, they
are already there.
Dave from Taylorsville | 5:34 p.m. May 21, 2010 "I'm from
Florida."that's good stuff right there...
Both BYU and Utah are great academic institutions. They have worked together for
decades building an education product that complements each others school. BYU
is a great undergraduate school which is reflected in the ratings. Utah is a
better graduate school with a large number of doctorate degrees and is strong in
Research by a long way. One is liberal and the other is conservative. This
relationship works well as an educational product as a whole. I could go on and
on. Simply put, the two schools fit well together. Why would they ever want to
sever that relationship by splitting conferences. Yes conference affiliation
means more than Athletics.
Now the PAC10 - They require a unanimous vote before doing anything
significant. Most other conference require 3/4 majority vote to make changes;
but, the PAC10 likes their veto power. Do you really think that the
PAC10 will want to give conservative and Church run BYU VETO power in their
conference? It basically would be giving the LDS Church some control over what
happens in the PAC. Clearly that is not going to happen. Call it bigotry,
culture or playing on Sunday's; however, that is the real reason why BYU is not
going to be invited to the PAC10. My Crystal balls says that BYU and
Utah will go to the Big12 together or stay in the MWC together.
B ypassC ougarS adium
Hey Scott,The combination of Utah/Colorado delivers a bigger
TV audience than any of the combinations of:Oregon/Oregon StateWashington/Washington StateArizona/Arizona State.Check your
facts.Funny to watch the SL media keeps trying to manufacture buzz
for BYU to the Big 12. Ain't gonna happen with that pesky Sunday play thing.Sorry.
re: Howard S.The admittedly unlikely combination of BYU/Colorado
delivers an even larger (much larger) TV audience than any of the combinations
you mention, plus many others possible BCS combos. Bottom line: BYU TV
audience > UofU TV audience x 3-5.By the way, it is not just the SL
media, but numerous West Coast sports outlets (ie. SFran Chronicle and others)
that are speaking about this.Alway hertz to be # 2 in a market (just
Re: Alpine Blue | 9:32 p.m. May 21, 2010 Cougars can tout
their vast national fan base, their national championship, their heisman, their
classiness, their attendance levels, even their 100% home teaching record....
But they still are not going to the PAC 10.Period. Texas is not going to accommodate Sunday play scheduling issues, so even
the Big 12 would be a huge stretch for BYU.Okay, other media markets
may mention BYU in the expansion discussion, but only with reference to the fact
that they are a long shot as an expansion candidate.Sorry.
Come on people, let's just get one thing straight: if the Big 12 gets looted by
the BIG 11, which is almost a certainty (who do you think, btw, Mizzou?
Nebraska?) BYU is the likely replacement. We can argue that all we want, but
the fact is that it was going to happen earlier (until Baylor hosed them) and it
will happen now. OK. Now what should we talk about? What do we
need to do to get a BYU v. Penn State game?
re: Howard S. | 9:57 p.m. May 21, 2010 Not so Howard. Read Ray
Ratto's recent CBSSports-line column where he notes: "Call it the
high moral ground that comes from nobody else "caring". But here's the kicker,
the one thing that we haven't had yet -- Notre Dame, BYU and Texas, the biggest
prizes on the cash continuum, ... and going from conference to conference
saying, "We know what we all are here, so just make us an offer." And we're all
expecting that to happen any time soon, no matter how stridently the schools try
to look dignified about this... They're all "growing the brand." And
you are probably absolutely correct about BYU and the PAC-10. The new Big XII
will not have any real issues with BYU's "no-Sunday" criteria.As you
are probably not aware, there are still many, many retail stores, etc. that
close on Sundays all through the Bible Belt.No need to be "sorry"
for BYU Howard. We totally understand your little sister mentality. Sorry, but
that's the way it is! Absolutely a great time to be a Cougar.
The fact that BYU isn't even a likely AAU candidate school will likely put the
kibosh on them ever joining the PAC-10. Simply put the "no Sunday play" issue
is more of a polite smoke screen many have invented over the years. The AAU and
it's sister college professors organization (AAUP) do not like religious schools
like BYU or the Catholic University of America. BYU is owned, operated and
GOVERNED by a Board of Trustees, and this makes them a liability in the mind-set
of these two organizations.What many readers are failing to post or
comment on is how the BYU Board of Trustees would support a move to a BCS
league. I think those who are Utah State alumnuses would shoot this down VERY
quickly, given the prospect of BOTH Utah and BYU in BCS leagues would bury the
smaller Logan school and further bankrupt their athletic program. What Mr
Pierce sums up is BYU and Utah in separate BCS leagues will be a low or no
revenue gain for either league. Bottom line is it won't happen.
Alpine Blue | 10:42 p.m. May 21, 2010 Alpine, you grossly
misquote Ratto and conveniently miss that he predicts that BYU will be invited
to the Pac 10. Not even you believe that. So much for Ratto's credibility on
BYU and conference expansion.Did it ever occur to you that those
Bible Belt businesses close on Sunday so they can watch Big 12 basketball and
baseball? You know... sports BYU won't play on Sunday.Hope is good,
and if the hope for a Big 12 invite to save BYU helps you sleep at night then so
be it.Sorry, so sorry.
So sorry you're such a jealous little hater Howard S, but BYU will be fine
wherever the Cougars end up.Frankly, I couldn't care less about BYU
joining the PAC 12. If it happens, fine. If BYU joins the Big 12, fine. If BYU
stays in the MWC, that's fine also.BYU almost single-handedly
rebuilt the WAC after the Arizona schools left, with no help whatsoever from
Utah in the premier sport, football, and BYU was the keystone to the creation of
the MWC.Utah has had a couple of great seasons lately, but the Utes
hadn't done diddly before 2004, and there's little chance that the Utes will
ever make the big splash in the PAC 12 that Utah's fans think they will.Anyone who has objectively studied both programs knows that BYU's
overall athletic programs and fan base are far superior to Utah's. Politics and
religious bigotry are the ONLY reasons Utah is favored for a PAC 12 invite.
A big annoyance to UofU sports people and fans is that they have to share a
"market" with BYU. Even though BYU is 40 miles away, the SLC market is a split
situation.My take on the PAC 10 is that they will not expand unless
they are absolutely forced to. They do not want to share the loot. The other
problem is that within the SLC and Denver TV markets Utah, Colorado and even BYU
are not top drawers. In Denver, pro sports rule. In SLC the Jazz are king.
Actually, pre-Mountain, BYU had stronger TV ratings and revenues than there
rival. Final comment. The only reason BYU would not be considered
is the Sunday issue. When you start talking about money, widespread fan
interest, et all, BYU rises to the top level quickly, but the Sunday issue would
be the show stopper not the TV market.
Part 1.RE: Utah to the PAC-10 and not BYU.UW Husky fan
here - To those who are contending liberalism, religion etc as the
reason the Pac-10 would take Utah and not BYU, I say to you that you have missed
the boat. We have conservative, albeit not "religious", schools in the Pac-10
WSU, OSU, Stanford, Arizona for example.If it was simply a "TV
market" consideration, the Pac-10 would be pursuing the likes of SDSU (San
Diego), TCU (Dallas/Ft Worth) but, the TV market is not what matters most here.
What separates Utah from BYU is very simple - the Primary Children's Medical
Center at the University of Utah. The Pac-10 prides itself not so much on sports
but, on having five of the top "Research Institutions" in the nation. Utah's
Children's Hospital would be a welcomed addition to this learning environment.
Part 2.In addition to the educational benefits that the University
of Utah offers, the writer here, Scott Pierce is correct in asserting that the
addition of Utah (and most likely Colorado) would allow the then Pac-12 to have
a Championship Game.Before you write me off as some Liberal from the
University of Washington, please consider that I too am LDS (35 yrs now) and
while I did earn my BS and MS from the University of Utah while stationed at
Hill AFB, I am a HUSKY through and through so I hold no particular loyalty to
Utah or BYU.It is my understanding that the Pac-10 will in fact
invite Utah and Colorado to join us and when one considers the endowment dollars
(10's of Billions) that funnel through the Pac-10, it would be a HUGH benefit to
the University of Utah to say - yes.
For all of you who say BYU is unheard of outside of Utah and Mormon communities,
I say think again. I teach school in Niobrara, NE population 400 and the
closeset LDS congregation is about 75 miles away with none permanently residing
in the community. During the bowl season and again during "March Madness",
there were a large number of BYU followers waiting to see if BYU was as good in
a game as they appeared on paper - they weren't disappointed. They would gladly
follow BYU in the Mountain West, as an independent, or as a close rival to
Nebraska.Any team that plays well consistently will be watched and
attract a following, not to mention a market, no matter what day they play on.
If the networks really wanted to test BYU marketability, maybe they could buy
the rights to the games and broadcast them a day or two late (on Sunday). Oh,
that's right - that's when all the "marketable" schools play.
MUSSing with U | 3:27 a.m. May 22, 2010 "BYU almost
single-handedly rebuilt the WAC after the Arizona schools left"Rebuilt the WAC? All the way to the 6th or 7th best conference in the
Re: Conservative Democrat | 8:30 a.m. May 22, 2010You raise a
good question, If BYU has such a vast national fan base why aren't the media
companies clamoring to buy the rights to broadcast to that market?Could it be that the BYU fan base isn't as vast or marketable as Cougars fans
like to believe?
Pac-10 Commisioner Larry Scott on expansion:"Scott said there have
been "no serious discussions" with any schools. He said the primary factor in
the decision will be finding schools that fit into the conference culturally and
academically. "I know that's of paramount importance to our presidents and
chancellors," Scott said."
Those who say BYU is not known outside of Utah live in a cave. I lived 35 years
in California, have family in 6 different states and friends in 12 others. The
consensus is they KNOW who BYU is and do follow it, not necssarily as fans, but
they do know who BYU is and their achievements. To say anything else make you
either a liar or dishonest at the best. Seldom is the mention of Utah as part
of the mix, other than the last 2-3 year with their BCS appearance. Otherwise
Utah isa 4 on a scale of 1-10 in the areas I mentioned.
re:The TruthAs someone who spent 20 years living isn So. Cal, I remember
the days that the church would open on Sunday and the BYU game would be shown in
the RS room. Members and non-members alike would be there.I remember
the groups that would get together to tailgate for the BYU SDSU game. Never
notoced them for Utah.I'm not here to put numbers on it, but anyone
who has lived or traveled abroad has seen what BYU's fanbase is. Those who want
to dismiss it, or argue it may, and they is fine... I know what it is.My suggestion to everyone is to google PAC-10 expansion and educate yourself.
See what you find.I have come to my personl conclusion, but I can
argue points with the uneducated.Look at the different TV scenarios
that are being discussed out there, the different pairings for travel, and bring
it back.don't argue points based on hatred for a team. be
objective.BYU and Utah are two good schools. Just feel free to be
BYU beating the Pony Express, Texas A&M, Texas, Oklahoma, Washington, UCLA and
other team teams from the power conferences, playing in kickoff classics,
winning a National Championship, a Heisman Trophy, numerous other national
individual awards, and consistently finishing in the Top 25 is what set the
table for non-AQ teams to even play in a BCS games. Without BYU 1996 and 2001
forcing the BCS to open the door a crack, there would have been no Utah 2004.
Poinsettia Bowl 2009Utah vs CaliforniaThe attendance of
32,665 was the second-lowest in the bowl's history.
Why do Cougars constantly post about their national fan base?No one disputes that Cougar Nation has adherents in every state in the nation
and probably every country in the world.So there... I said it.The problem for Cougar fans is that their national fan base is not
marketable. The reason it's not marketable is because it's a shallow fan base.
In this context I'm not referring to character. I'm referring to the
fact that the population of Mormons is most states in less than 100,000.That is not a marketable fan base. If it were marketable, the media
companies would be clamoring to purchase the rights to broadcast to that fan
base.Cougar fans can talk about their national fan base until their
faces turn blue (or bluer), but broadcast companies and conferences don't
Why is it that if one questions BYU's national credentials they are BYU haters.
Seriously folks, get a life and toughen up a tad. I have been to
many BYU games while here on the east coast, and in fact would be going to the
game at FS this year if Alabama wasn't coming to Durham to put a whooping on
Duke this year. LDS members do travel well to games... no doubt.But
to try to say the fan base for BYU even touches Notre Dame is delusional at
best. Other comparisons have been made to places like Virginia in
Charlottesville. Sure, their immediate market is small. But for football,
their Market includes the DC area. Trust me, there are a whole heck lot more
people who care about Virginia in the DC area then there are members of the
church spread across the country, that are willing to be separated from their
money to buy premium channels so that they can watch their team.Talking realistically about this doesn't mean that you are anti BYU. It just
means you have realistic expectations of the program. Stop being so emotional
Very good question Howard S. If the tdS truely believes their national
following is so prominent, why don't they go independent?Could it be
because even THEY believe it to be so grossly overstated?
Okay - stat geek time Cougars.Let's assume that ALL Mormons
are part of the BYU fan base. That's crazy I know, but just play along for
discussion sake.Estimate about 6 million Mormons in the US and about
2 million of those are in UtahThe remaining 4 million Mormons
represent about 1.3% of the population in the remaining 49 states.Obviously, the Utah media and marketers play up big time to the 2 million BYU
fans in Utah.But realistically, how could anyone reasonably believe
that the 1.3% of BYU fans in the remaining 49 states even register on the radar
for media marketers?Cougars? I've yet to hear a response to this
Absolutely a great time to be a Cougar.-------Preseason
yes, postseason not so much.PAC 10 or not the football program is on
the right track, talent wise see last few drafts for an example.Now
hopefully if we can turn the basketball program before BYU wins it's 2nd
tournament game in 17 years we will be just fine.
I wouldn't necessarily say that only Mormon BYU fans would turn on a game. I
am neither Catholic, nor did I go to USC, but each year I am likely to watch
that game because of the implications it has on the remainder of the year and
tradition of good players both schools has of producing. I think this years game
at Florida State will get a a decent draw because there is a story to the game
that can be played up - the new FS versus a team they dismantled last year and
their new quarter back. What makes BYU, Utah and Boise State
compelling to the country is their role as BCS busters. Everyone loves to cheer
for the little guy. You need to be careful of what you ask for because if these
teams do become part of the BCS, their stories become less interesting. They
will become just another team in the masses like Minnesota, Illinois, or
Buster,You just said, "don't argue points based on hatred for a
team. be objective.BYU and Utah are two good schools. Just feel free to be
objective..." Yet you recently said, "Utah had a decent season in 2008."Please tell me, in your opinion, what does a team have to do to have a
better than decent season?
SportsFan:"Without BYU 1996 and 2001 forcing the BCS to open the
door a crack, there would have been no Utah 2004."Actually, the only
thing the tdS did to propel the Utes into the BCS in 2004 and 2008 was to roll
over and play dead during our season finale.52-21? 48-24? Wow!
Thanks tdS. Were it not for you, some other non-BCS team would have done it
instead.The 2009 Frogs thank you too.Go zoobs.
UtahBlueDevil:"What makes BYU, Utah and Boise State compelling to
the country is their role as BCS busters."Don't you mean, "What
makes TCU, Utah and Boise State compelling to the country is their role as BCS
busters"? Because ybU was never a BCS buster.
Dear Hedgehog....People all over the world know BYU...Missionaries and BYU arts and Travel groups, the Tabernacle
Choir...the Olympics (lest you forget)the Church is well known...BYU
hires out thousands of employees to corporations world-wide...My
dear Hedgehog...I'm afraid it is your hatred that is most evident and your
myopic vision that is limited in scope. If you travel around the
country and the world, BYU is known often in conversation for many things. BYU fans just love to win and enjoy it, for the most part.Utah fans can lose every game all year, and still be thrilled just to beat
BYU. Some things never change. Bless you my son.
CWEB | 10:20 a.m. May 23, 2010 BYU is known across the the
world. There is no question about that.And yet with all that
exposure they have not achieved a BCS bowl game, let alone won one, nor will
that exposure get them invited to a BCS conference.Certainly Utah
fans are trilled to beat BYU, but Ute fans don't find it necessary to name their
victories."The Doink""4th and 18""Harline's still
open""George is still running"Could it be that victories over
Utah mean more to BYU, than victories over BYU mean to Utah?
tdS fans can go to the Las Vegas Bowl every year, and still be thrilled just to
beat Utah. They don't know the thrill of watching their team
dominate their opponents in top-tiered BCS bowl games.But Ute fans
SportsFanSorry to burst your bubble but all the 2001 team did was
validate the BCS. BCS said no thanks in the pregame only to be vindicated
postgame when the BYU defense with or without Luke got destroyed by Hawaii.Give credit to the 1996 team since they were the highest nonAQ team
until Utah out did them twice. But to say theu crack the door for Utah 8 years
later is silly. After 2004 the BCS rules changed. Please tell us
what BCS rules were changed after 1996 and 2001?
SportsFan,According to sited sources at wikipidia 1996 and 2001 are not
credited for "cracking" the BCS door for Utah. You might want to make a change
to the page, but I doubt anyone will take you seriously.Here is a
summary:University of Utah football program became the first BCS
Buster in 2004 after an undefeated season, despite harder limits in place before
the addition of a 5th bowl in 2006 made BCS Busters more commonplace.That proves Utah cracked the door for you.
CWEB, while BYU many be known by some around the world, it is not common
knowledge. I do business development globally, and have had my CV reviewed by
hundreds around this little blue marble we live on. The vast majority outside
the US have no clue what BYU is. And a lot of what they do know is
misunderstood or wrong. But even if they did know who BYU is, that
doesn't mean they are going to spend their saturday afternoon watching a BYU
football game, over say a Texas vs. Oklahoma game. Go outside of Utah and ask
who was last years quarterback at Texas. Now do the same for BYU. Out here on
the east coast vast vast majority of members couldn't tell you who the BYU
quarterback was. Unless they went to the Y, they don't care. I
went to BYU. I like them. I was there during the first glory years. I went to
those games. I knew many of the players. I loved the cougs like the best of
them. But that doesn't make them a national power on TV. You need
to take the blue colored glasses off.
Utah'95 | 9:07 a.m. May 23, 2010 Buster,You just said, "don't
argue points based on hatred for a team. be objective.BYU and Utah are two
good schools. Just feel free to be objective..." Yet you recently said, "Utah
had a decent season in 2008."Decent: respectable, worthy.Are you asserting that 2008 was not a respectable year, a worthy year for Utah
football?Geez. You beat a 4-8 UNM team, 10-7. By three points. a 4-8
team. You needed TCU's freshman kicker to miss two gimme fieldgoals. Yet, I believe the Utes that year were decent, respectable and worthy.What more do you want?
Buster:In 2008, the Utes beat FOUR ranked teams [2 of whom finished
in the Top-10], and by an AVERAGE of 11 points, but you want to negate that feat
because of a 3-pt win over New Mexico? Typical hypocritical zoob...one who most
likely falls all over himself in arrogant pride over a 1984 season that
required:(1) 4th quarter rallies to stave off unimpressive teams
like an eventual 3-7-1 Pittsburgh or 6-6 Wyoming and Michigan upsets.(2) A lucky GOAL LINE STAND to stave off another upset vs. Hawai’i,- and -(3) A single score scare vs. Air Force. And who did the “why?” beat that year? NOBODY! No ranked teams,
no other bowl teams, and vs. 13 opponents with an aggregate of only 61 wins.Therefore, by your own standards, 1984 was just a “decent”
Buster,Of course 2008 was a "respectable year, a worthy year for
Utah football." The Utes beat everyone they played in 2008, including a
one-loss SEC runner-up in a January bowl game. They were the only undefeated
team in the nation that year, and finished in the top 5.If the 13-0,
top 5 Utes were merely "decent," in your opinion, when was BYU's last better
than decent team? And please list the accomplishments of that team that trump
what Utah did in 2008.