I wonder how many women have actually escaped from this repressing lifestyle. We
mainly see the two Jessop ladies, and it's so easy for people to dismiss what
they're saying. I think it's great that more sect survivors are speaking up so
that those of you who still side with the FLDS can hear the truth.
And she gets paid how much (plus transportation, meals, and lodging) for these
I hate to be cynical, but it's hard to believe that Mackert wasn't intentionally
blurring the line between LDS and FLDS. She could have corrected the false
information, but she chose not to. While I am no FLDS supporter, if Ms. Mackert
is willing to blur the truth in this way, it makes me question other aspects of
her story/viewpoint as well.
You have got to be kidding....
I must heartily disagree with Mary Mackert, though I am sure she means well.
Another round of religious indoctrination would not benefit the FLDS children.
The fundamentals of survival, privacy and opportunities to learn to think for
themselves are the balms that would serve them best. I hope CPS and the courts
will steer clear of sending the children into environments where they are seen
as souls to be saved instead of individual human beings.
With all due respect for Mackert's efforts, if she does not make it absolutely
clear to her audience what the difference is between LDS and FLDS, she is guilty
of serious misinformation.
The beliefs of this woman are just a wacky as the FLDS. These kids will be
messed up if she takes them. Why is it so important to convert everybody to
These people, for the zillionth time, are not and were not ever "Mormons"!!Why is it that so many supposedly educated people in the press still ask
pointed questions referring to them as such???????At least this one
in this story referred back to that fact that she was a "Fundamentalist" when
asked about how people converted to Mormonism.Tired of this
This Christian lady is a model for others. Good for her, thank you Jesus.
A woman moves from one cult to another and now wants to convert her old cult to
the ways of her new cult. Big deal. The FLDS children don't need new religious
teachings, they just need parents to follow the law. For the record, if gay
marriage is fast becoming legal, I see no obstruction to a future of polygamous
and polyandrous marriages. That should be an issue of state rights.
These kids have had no choices in their lives. The last thing they need is to be
taken in by a woman whose primary objective is to convert them to her new faith.
They need to learn to think for themselves before being spoonfed another set of
beliefs. How traumatizing would it be for a kid to be removed from his or her
family and told "well now you worship this way"?Besides, I think
most of these kids will go back to their parents once family plans have been
established and the parents have agreed to follow certain guidelines. Y'know,
like "I promise not to let my daughter marry a contemporary of her grandfather
and not to kick my son out of the house when he brings home a Backstreet Boys
We need to trust people, but having proper information is necessary. this
'baptist' is full of hate and misinformation that she spews to the willing ears
of bigots who not only hate mormons, but hate anything not clapping hands and
donating money so the preacher can eat.
"Born and raised in Hildale, Utah, Mackert said she became the sixth of seven
wives to a 50-year-old man when she was 17. "He was older than my father,"Amazingly selfish and cruel men. This is just a travesty for all the
women and children involved in this counter-culture. Brainwashed to believe that
they will never find a decent spouse their own age that will be true to them.
The suffering of the children has been brought upon them by these men who have
abused their power and the grown women that condone the behavior.
The FLDS need to agree to stop breaking the law, then the FLDS kids should be
returned to their mothers.The FLDS need to agree to:--stop abusing their kids--stop forced marriages, especially of underage
girls--stop kicking boys out for trivial offenses--stop re-assigning
families to different fathers--stop abusing the welfare system--start keeping proper records of births, marriages, etc.--open their
society so that members are free to join or leave as they see fit--enroll
their kids in public schools or create a private school monitored by the state
so that their kids can receive a proper education
A: So she wants to adopt some of the children and convert them to her new found
religion - Baptist which teaches that all other religions are evil and not
christian. B: People are starting to line up on the band wagon to
adopt these kids. Won't surprise me if most of them are from Utah. These kids
are going through heck right now and she wants to add to it by trying to convert
them to another religion.C: the Baptist are big into missionary work
and pay the support of missionaries in the field just like they pay the pastor
to preach rather then teach them on Sunday.
Mary is well-meaning, but terribly misguided. These kids need love
and someone to care for them.NONE of the fostercare volunteers
should be allowed to try to re-educate the kids, especially with regards to
religion.ANYONE -- Baptist, Catholic, LDS -- trying to gain custody
of these kids for the express purpose of forcing their religious beliefs upon
these kids should be banned from the fostercare program.
For the well meaning people who are concerned the children do not get to think
for themselves, this is relatively new in our culture and look what has
happened.Essentially it is like asking a four year old to babysit for a
four year old, or a twelve year old to babysit for a twelve year old. They do
not have experience to understand consequences; that is where the parent's
understanding comes in and why the word of God must guide the parents. They are
as blind as children unless they have been taught God's guidance and wisdom.Self discipline is having guidance and then conforming to that guidance.
I expect that anyone would be delighted to have those children who love God and
have good control over themselves and honor their parents and authority. Children of our culture are confused with too many choices to go into
things dangerous and unfulfilling, looking for friendships to be fulfilled
because their parents are off working for money to support our greedy covetous
lifestyle. That is slavery by the name of employment. Create a self sustaining
garden paradise and treasure and protect your children with God's word.
Exceptions occur, fear not.
This lady was FLDS.Clearly she considered herself a Mormon when she
was in that cult.FLDS, LDS, both religious children of Joseph
As an Evangelical, I can tell that this dear woman is definetly "blurring the
line".I know many will disagree with me, but Scripture tells us that Mormons
are"saved".Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,and that God raised Him from the
dead, and thou shall be saved.That's it! The other issues, such as Temples,full
immersion Baptism,etc. are not Salvation related issues!We do not condemn people
to Hell that disagree with us.There are people in my congregation that I don't
agree with.But, I don't say to them, "Satan,get thee behind me." As far as LDS
upset over being identified with FLDS, is simply the sameness of the name. For
example, RLDS and LDS.RLDS is no longer thier official name in part because of
Read 1Cor 9:4,5,7,11 or read it in context paying ministers is Bibical,Read D&C
42:73"And the bishop,also,shall receive his support, or a just remuneration for
all his sevices in the church."Modern day LDS Chaplains. Paul took money
This is just "Godmakers" in traveling form. How is this any different? It is
Baptist Bigotry in another guise.Also, Baptists believe you must
confess with the mouth, accept Jesus as your personal Savior, be baptized, and
be born again. FLDS, as well as Catholics, LDS, and other Christians persecuted
by Baptists all do this. So why are the baptists so negative about other
religions when they are just as saved as Baptists?
Sounds like she just wants to "bring 'em to Jesus and save their souls". No
consideration for their welfare, their needs, their families. We need to
reunite these families, assuring they will abide by the law.This lady just
wants to turn hundreds of kids into baptists. Then what?
"This is just "Godmakers" in traveling form. How is this any different? It is
Baptist Bigotry in another guise."I agree. Pardon my cynicism but
we're talking about a religious group that is known for its opposition to the
LDS church, to the point of some of them accosting missionaries in the street,
sometimes even behavior that at times borders on stalking. I don't mean to
whitewash their entire religion, and some Baptists here will probably wonder why
we have singled them out. To them, I will simply say that being LDS in a Bible
Belt state tends to give one a certain perspective on a *few* of their more
"enthusiastic" congregations they may not be getting at Sunday services. This FLDS thing is an excuse way for some of them to get together, show
the "godmakers" movie and sit around slandering Latter-day Saints. That's why
the LDS church is avoiding the entire issue like plague, and why so many LDS
people seem to be so cynical about the motives of Texas authorities. It has a
ring of familiarity for some of us.
So, we still insist this has nothing to do with religion. Something to think
about.- How many of these kids have been back inside an FLDS church,
recieved the sacrament or any of their religious services since being taken into
State custody? How many of them do you think will EVER see the inside of an
FLDS church again? I don't think the State would allow it, and if the kids want
to go to that church and the state won't let them, that's restricting their
religious freedom. I don't know how you can call it anything else.We may agree that in our infinite wisdome we have decided it is for their own
good, but we can't deny that we ARE restricting their religious freedom.
Lee I think you need to learn more about the LDS religion before you comment on
their beliefs because you are so far off of the mark. We should quit worrying
about what religion these kids will become and take care of the problem before
us. Lets save them emotionally, mentally and physically before we start trying
to save them spiritually. They have had enough of that for a while.
It is suprising how confused so many people are about their own religion, they
try so hard to put a spin on their church to make it appear to be more like what
they think it should be rather than accept it for what it really is: both the
FLDS and the LDS are mormons, they are of the same genesis and like species and
share more in common than differences. They should look for ways to agree and
support one another.
This story goes to shows just how emotionally messed up FLDS women are. They all
seem to be zombies. They act out what sounds good to everyone, but have a hard
time expressing true emotion. What a shame. I believe the FLDS cult is an
extremely evil.The more I see what goes on inside some of these
wacky religions the more I desire to separate myself from all such sick
Interresting to read about this former member of the FLDS who doesn't appear to
even know that there IS a difference between the FLDS and the LDS religion. The
FLDS became a different religion when they broke off--which is their right. But
for her to not clarify the difference. Why would the LDS support a breakoff
when the FLDS clearily broke off because the didn't want to follow the beliefs
of the LDS. The
It seems very odd to me that there is so little mention of the very close
association of religion (notable the Baptists) and state (the Texas CPS) in this
matter.Baptist buses and facilities. Now Baptist missionaries and
congregations. All in very close collaboration with the Texas authorities in a
massive and very controversial raid and state sanctioned kidnapping of hundreds
of children.Yet, hardly a whisper from the same people who normally
raise the roof with their protestations when some church leader merely expresses
an opinion about some politically charged topic.There are some very
strange and, to me, very unsettling aspects of this case with some terrifying
implications. My hope is that the larger legal system will, eventually, sort
this mess out. At which time I strongly suspect the now shadowy outlines what
appears to me to be a very unholy alliance of church and state will be more
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has one basic difference with
other Christian religions. They believe that through the priesthood God will
send them continuing revelation to guide them through the difficulties and
problems they encounter, just as Gid sent revelation to the prophets of the Old
and New Testament of guide them through the difficulties encountered at the
time. The split off FLDS group maintains that they have received revelation to
live in polygamous marriages. As there cannot be real revelation that is in
opposition to itself, the Fundamentalist believers were excummunicated from the
LDS Church as they no longer chose to follow the prophet. So, while it is true
that the FLDS and the LDS Church started out the same, for the last 100 plus
years the FLDS have chosen to live by the words and doctrine of different
prophets. They have many differences now, just as any apostate
group has many differences with the original group. This would explain the
numerous groups that have split off the Catholic Church, believing they have
fundamentalist differences in their desires to proctice religion and no longer
follow the doctrine or teachings of the Catholic Church.
You obviously have only a superficial understanding of FLDS and LDS beliefs.
That's understandable, to a Muslim or a Buddhist, all Christian religions
probably seem alike.
Yes they used Baptist buses and facilities. They also used local High School
buses and facilities. So by your rationale, it must mean that the local high
school is also involved in this "scandal". If you want to see an un-holy
alliance of church and state, visit Utah sometime.
Well another ok former FLDS. She seems to be ok. I would like to take 3,ooo
people and see if there was any problems or abuse with them or their families.
I'm sure I'd find a lot of problems but that doesn't give me the right to go and
investigate every one. For the abused we should ivestigate but for the rest they
should have freedom of thoughts and religon. The government should not raise our
children, as parents that is our right in love. If abuse is there then there is
the law but it is getting scary what they are calling abuse these days.
To Lee:After reading many comments from many articles, I finally had to
comment and say thank you to Lee. As a member of the LDS faith, I have always
appreciated the love evangelicals have for our Saviour Jesus Christ. Thank you
for finally recognizing my love and belief that without him exaltation would be
These expressions deserve to be repeated, The FLDS women are:taught, honest,
clean, and hardworking as a result of their fear-oriented belief.The
believer is not a seeker that is why she/he believes.The believer want to
be saved; she/he needs a savior. She/he is always in search of a messiah.They need some who can eat, chew and digest for them.Believe is way of
repressing doubt; you doubt, therefore you need to believe.This group of
believers (FLDS) is a renegade gift from The Church of Latter Days Saints to the
USA.society.These FLDS women and children are suffering for their
belief. And it is very possible that persecution and suffering are expected by
them.Is in it interesting that similar types of persecutions were
inflicted on the original LDS corporation?
No sir/ma'am, I don't think they should have involved the Baptist church in this
matter at all(not even to use their buses). To use state funded school buses
seems like the logical thing to do. Also to say that the term mormon should be
able to be used interchangably is erroneous. They are distincly different, just
as the LDS and Catholics or Baptists are different even though they have more of
their beliefs in common than not.
I, too, am convinced that Mackert is intentionally allowing confusion between
LDS, who adamantly are opposed to polygamy and child abuse, and FLDS, who
continue to practice polygamy and many of whom continue to defend male members
who have married underage girls.
How long can the State of Texas hold these kids and force them not to return to
their faith or their families?Don't they have to let them go and
make their own decisions once they are 18? Or will Texas make special
provisions to hold FLDS kids and control their lives indefinatly?I
know many of the kids will change and take a course we would call "More Normal",
but I have to assume some of them are going to go looking for their parents when
they turn 18, and gasp, maybe even their faith.I also have to wonder
how this episode in their lives will affect their future. I have to assume some
will feel what they experienced while in captivity is just what their leaders
warned them would happen if outsiders got them. I also have to assume that some
of them will go back the life-style they came from, but even MORE convinced that
they need to be even MORE of a closed society (to protect them from more
treatment like their getting from Texas officials today).
Mary appears to be well-intentioned and perhaps CPS can find a way to channel
her desire to help that does not include her spreading her new religious
beliefs. I think the commentators above have made a good point that these
children do not need to be indoctrinated with a new religion. All
citizens of the United States have a right to religious freedom. I have always
had concern about parents indoctrinating their children into the parents'
religion. I especially have concern when it comes to what I've seen with the
FLDS. Beside the standard indoctrination, there are walls, a guarded gate and a
manned guard tower. Children are told they will go to hell if they don't remain
in the FLDS. They are told the outside world is bad and that they are specially
chosen. They are told they must be in a polygamous relationship in order to
reach a high level in heaven. Feelings are drilled out of the girls which
renders them incapable of adult functioning. The girls are impregnated by FLDS
men creating even more difficulty for those who would like to leave. This
certainly isn't my idea of religious freedom.
A: As Baptists, we believe that those who are not Christians are not saved; not
"that those who are not Baptists are unsaved." We do not believe LDS or FLDS are
Christian for many reasons, one of those reasons being the belief in more than
one God. Almighty God tells us again and again that there is but one God, and He
knows of none other beyond Himself.B: As a Christian it is her duty
to proclaim the good news of the Gospel to all.C: We do indeed
support missionaries in the field, just as the early churches supported Paul and
the others spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We also support our pastors in
the same endeavor, which is clearly in line with what Paul taught. Our preachers
do indeed 'teach' on Sunday...that's what preaching is, afterall...teaching from
the scripture. Our tithe, which is voluntary and not necessary in order to gain
entrance to our buildings, is used to support the local congregation as well as
any poor that may need help, and to support our missionaries and church-building
Part of the Texas Spin Machine. Have a former membersupport your agenda. I
am sure there is no moneychanging hands, (wink wink, nod nod).
I am an ardent supporter of the efforts to eliminate the flds and their compound
prisons. But I think it's carpetbagging to suggest we simply need to parachute
in and substitute another religion. These people have been denied their own
destiny, and I think trying to sell them a new god before they have even figured
out who they are is predatory.
How come my earlier comment wasn't posted? All I said was that this lady seems
a little obsessed with religion and unbalanced. I don't think she should be
KEEP YOUR RELIGIONS STRAIGHT!!!!! learn more about other people/religions and
their beliefs.... and do NOT trust everything that wikipedia says about them!!!!
I think you'll find that not all of the religious groups being bashed on this
page are what you think they are..... while I don't agree with the FLDS
religion, I also don't think that what they have done is constitutional, I just
think that if everyone were a little bit more tolerant of each other's beliefs
we would all be happier!!!!!
The LDS and FLDS are very closely related, as shown here by all of the support
and apoligists for the FLDS. FLDS practices the original doctrine handed down by
Joseph Smith. So actually they did not break away, The LDS are the ones that
broke away. And if LDS truly broke away they have said the word of Joseph Smith
is not True.
FLDS are NOT Mormons. The only way they'd be a "mormon" is if they were
baptised as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I'm
sick to death of supposedly well intended people mudding the waters with doing
everything they can to lump us together. You can't have it both ways guys.
I have been reading these blogs for a few month's and I am beginning to think
most religions are extremely weird and completely insane(ESPECIALLY POLYGAMY
CULTS). I do believe in God, but I in no way believe in all the craziness of
most religions--most make no sense whatsoever. I have no interest in joining any
of them. My life is pure, very moral and good just the way it is.
I know this woman and believe me, she is not "making money" from her missionary
efforts. She raises goats as her livelyhood and as you probably know that isn't
exactly a get rich occupation. The money she raises from donations, goes to
travel and lodging. It takes money to go and minister to these FLDS people.
God bless her for willingness to follow God and present the truth to these
How can we contact this christian soul? (Mrs. Mackert)to send
Leave the kids alone!!! They've already been through enough. It's
cruel and unthinkably selfish, of Mary or anyone else, to think that these kids
are nothing but sheep, ready to be herded into a new flock.Show some
true Christlike love and give the kids the freedom to make their own choices
without having a new religion stuffed down their throats.
Define truth. Your truth, her truth? It is a verydangerous game stepping
in for God. Whether you as an individual, or the state, the application is the
same. Are you a god, that can see into the innermostsoul of a
person, or an entire people? May all thathave posted here, please read
about the life ofPerpetua, "Roman History". I realize that you mayhave to confront some inner demons, but the true enlightenment will be well
worth the time.Before anyone vents, just look up what the factsof
history, tell us today.
I do not doubt Ms. Mackert's sincere and pure intents. Nor those of the
churches and their members wanting to help her. But I wonder how
she or they would feel about someone saying that Baptist, Catholic, Jewish, or
LDS children need to be freed from their "religious bondage" and taught the true
gospel of Jesus Christ as someone else believes it to be?I have no
love for polygamy, nor the FLDS. I am deeply concerned about underage
"marriages" or other abuse. But it is also deeply concerning to me
to see people so anxious to undermine the religious beliefs of others. Remove
underage "marriages" and other abuse and welfare fraud and the FLDS have as much
right to their beliefs and to pass those beliefs on to their children as do the
members of any other (or no) church, political party, or other belief system.
I'm a little confused as to why so many people on here want it both ways. They
don't want the FLDS and the LDS churches to be seen as related, and yet, people
continuously get on and whine about religious persecution. I have a feeling
that if this was some other religious group in no way related to the LDS church,
everyone here would be all for taking the kids away. It seems as if those who
are LDS want everyone else to take the same position their church has for years
- just let them be and ignore any possible unlawful activity - which has led to
years of abuse and neglect going unpunished.
re: comment 12:34Only in your wildest dreams. LDS is a moral religion.
FLDS is a colony of immoral men who have children slaves. There is no
resemblance to Mormonism. You do not know what you are talking about. Ive seen
you post before on here, but you are completely wrong, and some how you are very
confused in your thinking.
Stupid, bigotted, biased comment. How could you possibly know the
religion of every blogger and know that everyone who is either in favor of or
opposed to taking the kids away belongs to a particular religious group?
Why does it matter that Baptist buses were used? It's a churchs duty (no matter
the denomination) to provide humanitarian aid whenever they can. Had they(the
Baptists) been asked to borrow the buses and said no, the FLSD/LDS would be
running up and down the streets playing the persecution card calling Baptists
"hateful bigots". It's a lose-lose situation for the Baptists. Would it be
different if they were LDS buses? It doesn't matter what it said on the buses,
there was a problem with children being raped and abused in the community and
they all came together to help when needed. It appears that many just want to
place blame on another religion. The Baptists in Texas weren't the one raping
the only good Blogger is a muted blogger
Truth is beyond structure.It comes only when you are in an unstructured state of
conciousness.You can not manage and manufacture it; it comes when it
comes.There is no path to truth. If you are searching for truth, all paths
will lead you stray, because following a path means that you have already
decided what truth is. You have decided the direction, the dimension, how to
approach it, what dicipline to follow, what doctrine to adopt.Truth is not
a discipline either, because truth is freedom. Truth is a bird on its wings, not
a bird in a cage. The cage may be of gold with dimonds, but a cage is cage and
it can not contain freedom.My sympaty to the FLDS mother and their
children.God bless America.
Well said and I totally agree. In a way I have more respect for the FLDS people
than the LDS. They are strong enough in their beliefs to not give way to popular
opinion about polygamy as the LDS have. If it's the word of God, why did the LDS
stray from it?
Comment 12:34 is correct. Look at the history of why things are the way they are
today.and To Re:Make up your mind. People that read these with an open
mind can tell the bias of each post.
You obviously aren't LDS and you aren't FLDS, so what makes you think you're
qualified to make any accurate comparison between the two?What is
obvious is your lack of understanding and hatred of the members of both
Relax. I have thought that I would like to help out these people too. Everyone
wants to help them the only way they know how and I suppose that means that
everyone has a calling from the Lord to do it. This lady wants to help them out
with her new found religion. I want to help them out with my religion (LDS).
No problems there.
Re: Day Dream 1:52: You're obviously NOT one of those people who is capable of
reading the posts with an open mind.LDS bloggers have been very
critical of the both the FLDS practices of forced marriages and child abuse and
of Texas's denial of due process.
I have a hard time understanding why members of the LDS church are so outwardly
offended by the polygamy practiced by members of the FLDS church. In the LDS
church, the direction to stop practicing polygamy was handed down in response to
United States laws outlawing the practice. But the early leaders of the LDS
church married young girls just like the current leaders of the FLDS church do
now. And, as I understand it, polygamy is still an "eternal principle" that
will be practiced again. I guess I am just wondering how one can believe that
the FLDS members practice of polygamy is immoral while an LDS members practice
Are not the teen-aged boys as much abused as the girls? With a select few men
having multiple wives, a large proportion of boys have to be "let go" as you say
in the United States (I am in England) and these boys - having been brainwashed
from the time they were toddlers - can be in no fit state to cope with the
outside world. I have read that any minor infraction can be used as a pretext
for culling the boys and this must mean that they live in mortal fear their
every waking hour.One is inclined to say: Only in America! but bad
things are done in the name of religion all over the world.
Please educate me?Do the LDS mormons practice spiritual marriges for the
death?Have any of them have more than one death wife?Can a LDS
mormon have a living wife and be married to a death one?Do they practice
poligamy in the death world?Why such as hate and rejection between LDS and
FLDS?Do these Mormons (FLDS and LDS)follow the teachings of Jesus: "Do not
do to others what you do not want to be done to you."
1. What does whining about civil rights abuses have to do with the 2 churches
being "related"? Do you have to support the heavy handed approach in Texas to
not be accused of being an FLDS sympathiser? I support the freedom of all
Americans (including the FLDS).2. Not all Utahns or DMN posters are
LDS.Personally, when Texas has legal evidence of specific people
commiting specific crimes I will support the prosecution of these individuals
all the way. I just don't agree with those getting into the "Arrest all Males
who are FLDS" mind set.Encouraging governments to make arrests based
on the simple criteria of 1-Sex[M/F] and 2-Religion sets a BAD
presidence. Today many are OK with, "Arrest all Male FLDS", tommorrow general
arrest warrants like this could include MY demographic. I think the
criteria should always be the same (even when dealing with the "evil FLDS")...
If authorities have evidence you committed a crime they can arrest you, but NOT
because you are the wrong religion, wrong sex, wrong ideology, indicating you
MAY fit the profile. The government needs evidence of specific crimes, not just
suspicions based on profiles (your religion/sex/race/etc) to arrest ANY
The bottom line in all of this is; the state of Texas has blatantly stepped on
these peoples constitutional rights. It doesn't matter if you were LDS or FLDS
or Baptists or Whatever religion you are it was WRONG!!! Just because we don't
agree with a persons religion doesn't mean a thing. If there is abuse,
investigate it but don't take the entire community!! Give the children back to
their parents NOW even if we don't agree with their religion.
Moshen: Yes, to all of your questions. I'm uneasy at the LDS
church's reaction to the FLDS, but to be honest--it has little choice. See, the
FLDS basically believe when the LDS Church renounced polygamy, the church
leadership commissioned a select band of men to keep "the principle" alive. The
LDS church would mainstream itself and prosper, while the polygamists would
continue to suffer persecution but maintain doctrinal purity--so that, at some
future date, the groups would merge again. The story is bunk, of
course, But the upshot is, any friendly overtures the LDS church makes towards
the FLDS will be interpreted by the FLDS as preparing the way for the
merging--and will strengthen the FLDS in their delusion.Better to
just leave them alone.
To me oh my: Unfortunately, it appears that the entire community was and is
suspect. Thus the court has to take the children away and sort out the mess.
If the mothers, and fathers, had come clean right away and said who was who, who
belonged to who, etc., this court case would have moved on further down the
street. DNA will give us some answers.Since no one from the compound
was voluntarily giving information that our society needs to determine if there
has been ongoing crime, then the court has to move forward and pull in all the
suspects.Nothing unusual about Texas' actions. Only that they had
more backbone than Utah's leadership.Let the process move forward.
Meanwhile, do not confuse "mercy" with "justice". They are different concepts
and require different thinking.The Shadow Knows.
Your questions seem sincere. The best and most comprehensive way to answer your
questions about our belief in marriage is to take you to a proclamation on the
family issued by the Church:http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,161-1-11-1,00.htmlThis answers
many of your questions and states that marriage between a man and a woman is
ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator's plan for the
eternal destiny of His children. We also believe in being actively involved in
family history work. This work is to identify their ancestors and enable them
to bind their families together for eternity in holy temples. For more on this
seehttp://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/membership-in-the-church/temples-and-family-historyLastly, please know that The Church of Jesus Christ teaches that we
should love and not hate. Any that have shown hate are not living their
Those who are living polygamy are not living the LDS religion, or are they? I am
pretty tired of the many double standards of Mormonism. I have known some who
even go to the temple. Shushhhh!
the questions about your marriage policies except the ones that were asked. The
LDS do believe that a man can have more than one wife after death. This came
from the time that they had to stop practicing polygamy to become a state. The
belief was never stricken (just the practice). They don't like to talk about it
much.Also, to those that say that Mary is just trying to "convert" to her
religion. Well, most Christians are like her and believe that we should not
have more than one spouse (in heaven or otherwise). And, actually most
Christians don't even believe in "marriage in heaven".
I've always been taught that if you want to know what someone believes, ask
them, not someone else. So, if you want to know about what Mormons or Catholics
or any other religion believe ask them, not those of another faith.A
good place to go to find out what Mormons (not really the name of the Church but
is only a nickname) you might check out Mormon.org and select the "basic
beliefs" link (they believe in... God the Father, His son Jesus Christ as the
Savior of all mankind, and in the Holy Ghost; in the bible, prophets, the golden
rule, living a good Christlike life, families, and so on).As to FLDS
being Mormons, Gordon B. Hinkley the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints (also know as Mormons and as LDS) during a 1998 television
interview with on Larry King Live said, "They [FLDS] have no connection
with us whatsoever. They don't belong to the church. There are actually no
Mormon Fundementalists."Just because I claim to be a member of an
organization, if I don't join with them, recognized by them, live by their
rules, my claim is invalid.
you are wrong by saying the flds community isn't doing anything wrong. POLAGAMY
IS AGAINST THE LAW. so lets quit turning a blind eye to it. It's rediculous that
it could be illegal, but yet we try to ignore it. Give me a greak. Alll of the
wives and husbands should be arrested for breaking the law. They may as well be
selling drugs because both are illegal.
Once again, it seems many have missed the point of this situation. They were not
raided because of their religion. They were raided because they forcibly married
and raped underage girls. Since it was obvious that many girls have been abused
IE: numerous pregnant 14 year olds, they were all taken from the community. If
you abuse your dog, they take the dog away until you get your due process. Even
if you had three dogs and only abused one, the still take them all away as to
avoid further abuse. This case is exactly the same. And before you jump all over
this post, I'm not trying to belittle these children by comparing them to dogs.
It's just an analogy.
"you are wrong by saying the flds community isn't doing anything wrong. POLAGAMY
IS AGAINST THE LAW."Polygamy was not the cause of the raid, child
abuse allegations were.And as many have pointed out, these polys
aren't legally married to more than one women, they only claim to be. So it's
not really against the law unless you count common law marriages. And if you do
that, a lot of Texas' population is going to be joining FLDS in jail. Finally, even if they do aggressively push polygamy prosecution, it's only a
matter of time until the ACLU or similar organization turns this into the next
gay marriage and the anti-polygamy laws are declared un-constitutional by
SCOTUS. That's because there's just something fundamentally silly
about government taking action against polygamy when people can commit adultery
without being punished, and when "swingers" regularly collect as many mates as
they want. In Arizona and Utah, polygamy itself is rarely prosecuted
for these reasons, and those targeted are usually the worst scumbags prosecutors
can find and who usually need to be behind bars for something else that perhaps
cannot be so easily proven.
Polygamist will always say anything to have their way with woman. These guys
come a dime a dozen. Only a fool would want more than one. Also, a woman would
have to be a bigger fool to live that kind of life style. There will be plenty
of men in heaven who didn't get a change to marry while alive who will get a
chance to marry in the next. There are plenty of men to go around ladies.So polygamist men quit placing yourselves so above all other men. No one
in their right mind would want one of you fellows.
To those who say that polygamy was not a reason for the raid, go look at the
search warrant. It specifically mentions "Bigamy" as one of the two charges it
To: all Matt's on this blog.....who cares?
Hector schmector.What the heck are you talking about. Sometimes I can
barely read these comments because they are so incoherant.
RE: Comment: You said that it was us, the LDS, who broke away not the FLDS,
right?? because it was Joseph Smiths' doctrine...and we, the LDS, changed it.
Well, guess what? IT was not Joseph Smith Doctrine, it was Gods Doctrine. He was
the one who told Joseph that it was His will for the Saints to practice
polygamy. Joseph Smith DID NOT just wake up one day and say "Hey dude, I think
I'll have more than one wife, that would be cool!!." Give us a break.... And it
was this same God who told Wilford Woodruff that it was time to stop with the
polygamy.I believe that God can change His mind ANYTIME He wants, or
does He have to check with you and/or the rest of the Christian world.
Polygamy is a crime with many victims. Go Texas!!!!
Out of one cult...into another...
Well folks, Its a mans right to have more then one wife. We need to have more
because of our manly needs. Woman just need to know this, and that they don't
rate quite as high as man. Gods is a man and he is a polygamist too. He has
worlds of wives. Women were made for the purpose to serve man and multiply his
seed at his request. That's the way it is.
As an LDS woman with an ex-husband who converted to FDLS I know that comparing
LDS and FLDS is like comparing night and day. The FLDS tried to convert me.
Also, I have lived in the "bible-belt" where my children were called names as
they walked through their high school halls by some very good "Christians"
because my children are LDS. I like and respect true and honest people of any
persuasion, religous or not, and I enjoy having people of various religions
around me. The fact that they may not like me or my religion does not bother me
one bit. I have faith in the human soul. None of us have a real clue as to how
God will ultimately judge us all and we should stop using the scriptures to
judge and condemn each other. Give the FLDS children a good education, teach
them good values and self-discipline, teach them to think on their own, and then
trust them to make good choices for themselves when the time comes. Every human
being should have that opportunity.
I agree with Not Sheep. I believe the kids need have respect, because they are
FLDS, that is their religion. They are separated because of sexual abuse.. I
also think is horrific...but they need love, as much peace as is humanly
possible... Who wants to come out of their world and have the rest of the world
try to reform them?? They are probably so confused and frightened. I think
the amount of girls pregnant and married is awful...but I wish the world would
realize that they are human beings who have been taken from all they have ever
known.It is certainly not the time to force conversion to something
else. We can pray for them...as a nation..and pray that soon and somehow...some
resolution can come along. Obviously, someone felt it is right in Gods eyes
to do what they were doing..so for them..they are being persecuted. But the
kids do not need to become something else right now. They just need love and
support. How would you feel, if you were the 14 year old
mother..realizing that she was a "victim" in someone elses eyes, and didnt know
it. Compassion, humanity.. these are children.
This lady wishes to replace the children's loving parents so that they can be
"saved" in her new religion. Pleese! If she really loves the children, as she
says, then she would understand that these children do indeed already have
parents. I live in Canada and in the past, the government took children away
from the natives and put them in "better", more civilized schools in order to
integrate them into "our" society. Until this day, the country keeps apologizing
for the cruelty it inflicted on this population, the breakups of families and
the social, psychological and emotional consequences it had. If you wish to
follow Christ, then do as He did. He never pushed, only gently guided. He was an
example and He led the way. He did not take children from their families but let
people old enough to make the decision to follow Him to do so. He commaded to
honour and obey the parents given to us by Him. He did not command us to rip
children from their loving, caring mothers. Arrogance and lack of awareness of
our own lack is not Christian.
ABC123: If I were you, I would investigate really through about the reason
why we need to pay our tithes in order to enter our temples. My family were
Baptist, evangelicals, etc. and all these people really STINK. Their pastors,
or reverends all they do is have the best steak for dinner and the best car and
house. Not to mention the adultery that exist among the pastors, reverends!!
Your people need to start really investigating the truth about LDS. Not just
the outside!! But, deep, very deep. I'm sick and tired of this FLDS and and
the stupidity of the media and people around!!!
It seems as if most of you missed the real reason this lady wants to take in
these children, she came out of the FLDS cult herself. If anyone knows how hard
it is to adjust, she'd know. As for "separation of church and state"
and using Baptist buses, the phrase "separation of church and state" isn't even
in the Constitution. The government is just not allowed to establish a religion
as a "national religion" and force everyone to believe that way. The Baptist faith is a cult too? Ha, I'm a Baptist. I have the right and
freedom to choose what I believe, I can wear red, I get to choose who I marry, I
can have a career, I can go to college and graduate school if I want to, I know
all about other religions, I watch the news, I even *gasp* have internet and
watch movies! I also am very aware of the right of others to choose what they
believe as well, and I respect that. Learn a little about who you're insulting
please, before making such blanket statements.
Yes, polygamy is against the law and all that but what do the children have to
do with it other than having had lost their mothers and homes? Who cares about
the bickering amongst us regarding doctrine, differences and sects? Evil must be
snearing with glee. If you truly love these aflicted people, then that means
helping to reunite the children with their mothers, as Solomon did, and not try
to usurp them. He knew that there can be no comparable love for a child to
her/his mother's. There are now a lot of vultures (Mary is probaly well meaning,
though...) now gathering to pick and snatch what is not theirs. What a
What must not be lost in this event is the fact that the FLDS are truthfully
following the example of Joseph Smith, whom they consider to be their first
Prophet, Seer, and Revelator. Joseph Smith started polygamy as early as 1833
when he married Fanny Alger, age 16. Joseph married one or two 14 year old
girls; Helen Mar Kimball, age 14, May of 1843 and Nancy M. Manchester, [age
14?], [1842-1843]. In all Joseph Smith was married to at least 33
females, women and children. 33% were between the ages of 14-20. Many of his
wives were still married to other men (polyandry). The FLDS are following Joseph
Smith's teachings out of Doctrine and Covenants 132 where he taught that in
order to get to the upper level of heaven a man MUST have multiple wives. People
need to face up to the fact that Joseph Smith was a false prophet. Please read
Todd Compton's book; "In Sacred Loneliness The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith"
where I found this information on Joseph Smith.
Yes, I agree with others on here, it is our God given right to have as many
wives as we want. One just isn't enough for the celestial kingdom. Women are
here to serve us.
All these religions are messed up. Everyone claiming they are the "True" church
and God is talking to them and everyone else is wrong!Reminds me of
a Robert Frost poem I took some liberties with:SOMETHING there is
that doesn't love Religion, That sends the frozen-mind-swell under it,
And spills the temple boulders in the sun; And makes gaps even two
facts can pass abreast. The work of preachers is another thing:I
have come after them and made sensible repairWhere they have left not one
truth on another,But they would have the rabbit in their cage,To
please the yelping dogmatists. The gaps I mean,No one has seen them made
or heard them made,But at Spring Semester Logic Class we find them
there.My neighbor only says, "Good religion makes good neighbors."Reason is the mischief in me, and I wonderIf I could put a notion in his
head:"Why do they make good neighbors? Isn't itWhere there is no
civilization and science? But here there is civilization and science.Something there is that doesn't love Religion,That wants it down!
Mormons is a term that was used by the enemies of the Church to describe anyone
that believed in Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. Applying the original
definition, FLDS and LDS fall into that category. Both groups share the same
core beliefs and use the same scriptures. The only glaring difference that
separates them is polygamy.IMO, if FLDS children were placed in LDS
foster homes they would have more in common than other religions which do not
believe in the restoration, Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. They would have
an easier time making the transition from polygamy than they would with another
religion trying to tell them their lifestyle was wrong.
Robby, you are a genius! Thanks!
Just like the branch devidians were the children of Jesus? things that make you
All I can say is, the sooner that these children are taken out of the hands of
Baptists, the better. A Mormon is a Mormon is a Mormon to them. This is the
Baptists' opportunity to "save" these children, not from abuse, but by
converting them to their religion. These poor children.
Please check out religioustolerance dot com to actually get the true facts on
nearly all religions. I believe that God wants us to love one another as He
loves us. NONE of us are perfect and we receive mercy in the same measure as we
practice it towards others.
I love that statement "God has the right to change his mind" That is absoulutely
hilarious. You have reduced God to a mortal and Female at that.
You clearly are not FLDS, thanks for playing though. The fact is that the
bigamy charge will NOT fly. The why is simple. The men were not legally
married to any additional wives and were "spiritually married" only. How is
that any different then what Hugh Heffner is doing with his three "girlfriends"
except that the FLDS are without their own reality show.And to the
person that claimed they were Baptist and were not a cult because they could
wear the color red. Get over yourself. I am agnostic and live in the Atlanta
area. The baptist women in a class with me, hired people to go to the liquor
store for them since their religion didn't permit it. They also damned me to
hell complete with brimstone, with love of course, for not understanding the
concept of Jesus. So spare me the "I am not a cult bit." You are, but don't
recognize it from within.
You have NO right. I am a women and have as many God given rights as you. Get
into the 21st century or move away to a third world country. You are not
I am a person that has been very outspoken about these beliefs and I can tell
you that it doesn't matter as much (or what Christian religion) helps these
children...they just need help! Any Christian religion in the nation would help
them to get these notions out of their head of women being second class citizens
and of them needing to do the things they're told to "get to heaven". It's
hurtful, ridiculous and not Democratic!
You're welcome to your belief, but it's yours and only yours. Most of the
apologists on here appear to be FLDS or worse yet, ex-mo's.None of
what you write can be authenticated. I'm concerned about this lady.
She, for all practical views is sincere but she seems a bit not grounded in what
all she is promising to do. No one can do this much, she needs help. Baptists
are good people.
I think LDS members need to be honest with themselves. Regardless of your LDS or
FLDS ties, both put stock in the Book of Mormon which has been proven to be
unreliable, and for the most part, down right historically false. If you are an
LDS member, or an FLDS member, you can't criticize someone's faith because your
faith feeds people a bill of lies! You claim to be "Christian", but the Jesus
you claim to know isn't the Jesus of the Bible! Stop claiming to be something
you are not!
After DNA tests, and no apparent fathers step up, tests need to be done on
many of the LDS men, from the Salt Lake City area, that often travel to Texas,
to find the real fathers of these abused children to prosecute them. This might
explain the silence of the church leaders,......hmmm.
Chris, I would put my Mormon Jesus being more in line with the Bible than the
man-made doctrine of trinity that you believe in. When Jesus was on the cross
why did he say Father why has thou forsaken me? Why would he ask himself why he
has forsaken himself? There are thousands of scriptures that prove that God and
Jesus and the Holy Ghost are three distinct beings. When Jesus was being
baptized God spoke from Heaven and said this is my beloved son in whom I am well
pleased and the Holy Ghost descended as a dove. THREE distinct beings. So I
would say that Mormons are the true Christians because we DO worship the true
Jesus of the Bible. What does that make you?
"...So I would say that Mormons are the true Christians because we DO worship
the true Jesus of the Bible. What does that make you?..."The Bible
that you quote also notes that Almighty God many, many times proclaims that He
is the only God, and that he knows of none other. How does this square up with
LDS belief in many Gods? Note that I said "belief" and not "worship". There is
only one God, the God of Abraham, and He exists eternally in three personages.
That's pretty easy to figure out from reading the scriptures. He was not once 'a
man', and did not have to 'perfect himself' (see John 1:1). What say ye? "True
Christians" are not polytheists.
To Anonymous | 10:56 p.m.,Let's start on some common ground. The
Mormons are very fond of C.S. Lewis. Go ahead and take a look at his "Mere
Christianity." The entire book is based on C.S. Lewis' belief in the Trinitarian
Doctrine, so you need to read it with that in mind. But pay particular attention
to "Book IV: Beyond Personality," and specifically Chapter 2 in Book IV: The
Three-Personal God. C.S. Lewis makes the Trinitarian doctrine understandable.In the interim, perhaps you can help make sense of the fact that the LDS
"Holy Ghost" is a "Great Spirit without body, parts or passions, who sits on the
top of a topless throne, 'beyond the bounds of time and space', whose center is
everywhere and circumference nowhere; who fills immensity with His presence and
yet is so small He can dwell in your heart." Can you please tell me why, if God,
the Father, is who we pray to, why do we need a separate god - Jesus, the Son,
or the Holy Ghost god at all? And why did Joseph Smith pray TO JESUS (Jehovah)
when he dedicated the Kirtland Temple?You mock what you don't
return these children to their parents, who love them more then any living soul
There is a big difference between the FLDS living pologomy now and when the LDS
church did it. When the LDS church did it it came from Jesus Christ and there
was a reason for it. They never went around kicking all the young men out so
that all the older men could have them. Not all LDS men had more than one wife.
The reason why they did away with it had nothing to do with the government. It
came from Jesus Christ. It just wasn't needed any more. If you want to find out
the truth about the LDS church ask members and don't believe everything you
If Mormonism had never existed, Utah, Idaho and Arizona would be unlikely to
have many, if any, polygamists. True, the Main LDS (Latter Day Saints)Church
today is opposed to polygamy so long as it is against Federal & State law. If
the LDS had kept practicing polygamy, with the fed. gov't knowing it, Utah would
not have been allowed to become a state. Some of the LDS men hope to practice
polygamy in the next life. If the law would allow it, many would practice it
here now.Mormonism (LDS) has 4 scriptures. It's their "Doctrine &
Covenants" that taught polygamy was acceptable. Polygamists think the mainstream
LDS Church has betrayed God's (alleged) Command to become polygamists. They
believe that that command is still valid today & that all true believers are to
marry polygamously. To stay single is taboo. It prevents them from getting to
the highest of 3 kingdoms in the next life, or they get there they become
servants to the others. Both the LDS & FLDS teach that.
Of "Christian". If someone's definition is that of believing in the teachings
and life of Christ then anybody that does is Christian. But, in the Christian
world, there are many that believe that a person is not Christian if they don't
hold to the main teachings of the traditional Christian church. In this
respect, Mormons do not have some of those same teachings. Also, in the early
church it was stated by Mormonism that Christians did not have a "true"
religion...it was not desirable to be "Christian" in Mormonism (there may still
be people that feel this way). So why should the main body of Christianity be
happy that Mormons want to be "Christian" now? They used to condemn them...some
of them still do.
The reasons Mormons gave up polygamy had nothing to do with the government?
Read Wilford Woodruffs "manifesto". He never said that he was doing away with
it. He said (in essence) that he saw the destruction of the people. He very
much did so because of the government! There is no mention of the Lord telling
him to do it!This is an incorrect teaching. The LDS church of the past
almost met it's demise from it and now the FLDS are meeting their demise. Face
the facts and then learn from them for the future. Polygamy is not "coming
back" as some like to think. If you do, you will have the same unpleasant side
I think somebody just has to say it, nevermind compassion or understanding, the
FLDS are just plain dumb!!!
Finally the Deseret News has reported something newsworthy that got the Mormans
thinking. With all of the problems we have in this world, we should all be
greatful for a loving Father. He lets the rain fall on the spiritual as well as
the unspiritual.I'm glad to be a Christian. The trials and tests
that face me daily let me understand more clearly what faith is. This article
explains how a non-Morman woman has excepted a calling and is reaching out to
Mormans to share her story. She is doing nothing different than the thousands of
young men and women around the world telling others about the LDS relligion. My wife is an non-Morman. However, no matter where we move, her name
always appears on the local ward role call. I wonder if Ms. Mackert's name
appears on her old ward role call?
I love reading blogs of Christians who disagree about Jesus. In fact if Jesus
were here, I bet that is what he would do.
I read through most of the comments. I know Mary Mackert and have for several
years. Several have condemned Mary, when you have only read a story from the
blog or from the news. Then refer to her and Baptists as a cult and evil etc.
Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black?Mary is a compassionate
woman who loves the Lord and loves people.Some have suggested "How much
money is she being paid for this?" Answer ... she is on NO ONES pay roll. A
church may give her a love offering or gas money. But she survives on very
little. Interesting on how so many - in the name of Christ -condemn
others while demanding compassion from the one they are be littling.By the way, Baptists are NOT protestants and do not baptize for salvation.
Faith alone - NO works.We do not NOT believe that Jesus & devil are
borthers either, Hiram.
Sounds like some LDS people are upset because a Baptist (and a woman at that)is
doing the work of God with the FLDS.