I heard on bbc world service that there's some sort of election thing, a non
flds related news story, also going on in the US somewhere...
Can the state of Texas not count????! Haven't they said that they had 421 kids
in custody? Now it's 437! How can they miss 16 children? This speaks volumes
about the whole debacle down in Texas.
>>"I don't know why I should have to do this. I have documents," said an FLDS
man as he left the building.
If the State of Texas can't count, how will they know when a child goes missing?
Contrary to (un)poplular belief, the CPS have found/presented NO EVIDENCE that
there is/has been any child sexually or physically abused. They keep saying that
they "believe" that the FLDS culture may be harmful to children and basing their
(CPSs's) "beliefs" on media reports. What gives. Why haven't we seen ACTUAL
PROOF of abuse yet?
the reason I believe for the mix up in the number of children were because many
children did not know their birthdays correctly or were not telling how old they
were espically the pregnant teens were at first saying that they were older
therefore not children having children but adults and it has since been
determined that a lot of them are indeed children, so the count rises. just fyi
Contrarywise: it is not the responsibility of the Texas legal system to
publicly disclose their evidence. Rest assured there is a plethora of credible
evidence of systemic child abuse. To assume otherwise demonstrates a fundamental
ignorance of the law.
An explanation just for Incredulous and Count, and I am sure other FLDS Schooled
people. The count went up because, believe or not, some of the women lied and
said they were adults and when CPS found this out that raised the child count
from 421 to 437. Not hard to understand. They Lied about their age and
everything else they have told the authorities.
Ummmmmmmmm you are complaining that the Texas doesnt know how many kids there
is...Doesnt look like the FDLS members knew eitheryou woul
dthink they would know how many children were living at that ranch and
even they didnt say a word go figure.. those people are pumping those kids out
so fast that not even they can keep track
"Can the state of Texas not count????! Haven't they said that they had 421 kids
in custody? Now it's 437! How can they miss 16 children? This speaks volumes
about the whole debacle down in Texas. "The reason the number of
kids changes is not that they don't know how many people are there, but that
people previously identified adults are reclassified as children, because they
lied about how old they were.
also on the poster who says no proof of child sex abuse what are pregnant teens
to you and why is leader or former leader jailed?? hum? thats strange isn't it?
Incredulous...it's not that Texas can't count it's that the FLDS keep lying to
them. One day a girl says her name is Ester and she's 19 years old. The next day
the same girl says her name is Ruth and she's 16 years old. Consequently, the
number of children in custody changes. The FLDS thought they could
simply lie and get away with it. Now that the state is testing them, the FLDS
realize the gig is up so they are starting to confess their real ages. Before
the women were escorted out of the ranch, every "husband" ordered their 16 year
old "wife" to tell authorities they were 18 or older. The FLDS probably thought
they would get away with it and their "wives" would be returned. But, Texas
realizes an "18" year old girls with two kids doesn't really add up. I think it's funny the teenage girls with one child say they are 18, and all
the teenage girls with two or more kids say they are 19. Why? Because if an 18
year old has two kids (unless they are twins) that means she was at most 16 when
she had the first kid.
You are not skeptical, you are merely projecting the contents of your own filthy
mind onto people you know nothing about. You, like many others who comment in
these DN forums, have bought the entire package of allegations made by people
with an agenda - people who are having a very difficult time coming up with
anything to prove their allegations of abuse.
of course we can believe every word that cps tells us...NOT...
CPS itself stated it didn't have an accurate count because of people in cots and
going to the bathroom, etc when they were trying to count them - uh, they
couldn't just line everybody up??Yesterday, the report was that an
"undisclosed number" of 20-30 girls of disputed age had been proved to be
ADULTS.And they have LAWYERS locked up in there?? That ought to go
over really well!
Just thought I would remind those on here feeling sorry for the FLDS and
claiming Texas is picking on this innocent religious group that the "prophet" of
this harmless group of people is behind bars for marrying an unwilling 14 year
old girl to a 19 year old boy and forcing her to have sex with the 19 year old.
Jeffs was tried and found guilty by the state of Utah. Jeffs is known to have
been visted the Texas ranch, so what makes you think the same things he did in
Utah didn't happen in Texas?
Really does not matter about the count of the children. What matters is the
TOTAL being held at the Coliseum. If the additional children was a result of
those claiming to be adults then the number of adults would have declined
but-- As of April 21 In yet another FLDS raid-related
development, coordinating attorneys, legal aid attorneys and guardians ad litem
announced an undisclosed number of 20-30 young women whose adult status had been
debated had indeed been determined to be legally adults.
The news accounts I read stated that they did 'head counts' previously and not
all children were evidently present at the time each count was taken---they were
elsewhere than that particular room or area. I have read nothing stated that
they moved ages down from adult to child. How exactly are they supposedly
proving someone is 16 and not 17? That's not what the statements from CPS said
in news accounts that I read.
'No, no!' said the Queen. 'Sentence first - verdict afterwards.'Evidence, charges, trial, verdict, sentence. Texas is still
working on evidence.Your call for ACTUAL PROOF of abuse is a bit
premature. Texas hasn't even identified the possible victims and perpetrators
yet.Until Texas identifies a specific underage girl who was
spiritually married and sexually abused by a specific adult man, there will be
no ACTUAL PROOF of abuse.
In response to Archaea Cougarguard: "it is not the responsibility of the Texas
legal system to publicly disclose their evidence. Rest assured there is a
plethora of credible evidence of systemic child abuse. To assume otherwise
demonstrates a fundamental ignorance of the law."You clearly have
never dealt with Texas CPS before! CPS' definition of evidence is rather vague
and broad. They can enter 'evidence' that would be and is laughed out of any
other court room. This is why CPS needs to forced to follow due process - it is
nearly impossible for outside reviewers to figure out what they have done
because their difinition of evidence is so broad and vague and the case workers
have so much leeway in interpreting said evidence. Why do you think CPS has
been so resistent to Sunshine laws?
So those claiming to be adults were counted as adults??? Believe me if CPS
thought they were children, they were counted as children and not adults.
Also there is this thought-- if you were a young mother about to be separated
from your chid, would it not be preferred to be identified as a minor and get to
stay with your child?? Even if I was an adult, I would change my story if it
meant I could go with my child.
Uh, here's a quote from another article here on this website: "We've
been able to get a better count now that we're over here at the coliseum," said
Shari Pulliam, a spokeswoman for the Texas child protective services. "You can
imagine with these many people and different locations, it was hard to get an
exact count."Pulliam defended the earlier numbers, saying that it
was difficult to get an accurate count."You've got mothers with
babies in cots, but not everybody's lying down at the exact same time," she
said. "Some are in the restroom at times when you're counting. Some people are
in the shower. There's a lot of different things going on at the same time."Soooo, it sounds to me like there's a lot of incompetence going on
there. Imagine if they used this system to count children in Elementary School?
Using the excuse that "some were in the restroom" uh, yeah, that instills
confidence that these people know what they're doing.
Anyone here ever been chaperone for a school excursion? How easy is it to keep
track of 25 or 30 kids you don't know? Now imagine there are 400+ kids. Imagine
they all dress similarly, the same style of clothing, often even the same color
of clothing. Imagine the kids all have similar features. Imagine the children
are all closely related because of the plural marriage thing and the practice of
marrying cousins. Imagine you are trying to count them while Sally and Susie are
coming and going from the restroom and doing whatever else was going on at the
Coliseum. Sounds like a difficult task to tell everyone apart even if there is
NOT deliberate misrepresentation of key details. Add to that the issue of who is
or is not an adult and whatever they are saying about that topic as well.Sounds to me like CPS is just trying to get everyone processed out of
the Coliseum and THEN maybe try to make other arrangements for visitation or
placement issues. We are going to be hearing about this story all summer.
First of all, Archaea Cougarguard is right, the State has zero obligation, and
honestly, no good reason to tout their evidence to the media. Why, in our day
and age, do we assume that they should have to do that. The judge, and where
appropriate, a jury hear the evidence and decide the case, not the media or the
public at large. Secondly, what is the statutory definition of
sexual abuse in Texas? We are under the paradigmatic view that there must have
been forced sexual assault or rape coupled with physical abuse. However, every
state has a statute, or statutes defining sexual abuse to include sexual contact
with a minor, whether consensual or not. Most commonly we hear the term
'Statutory Rape' used in these instances. So whether the state shows
its evidence to the media or not, there is prima facie evidence in every
pregnant girl 16 years of age or younger.
"it is not the responsibility of the Texas legal system to publicly disclose
their evidence. Rest assured there is a plethora of credible evidence of
systemic child abuse."George Bush called. He wants them to check for
Your argument is flawed. The root of the trouble they are facing is the fact
that under-age girls are being forced to marry and have children. Admiting
outright that you are a child, with children of your own, would have been too
much exposure to liability. Of course they lied about their age. And if a 15
year-old says she is 17 and an adult, CPS may have no reason to believe
Maybe you did not know that DNA testing can not determine age. Looking can not
determine age. Not even CSI can determine age with a body to work with. They can
only determine an age range. So they were told by their husbands to say
they were 18?? A young woman when asked her age , repeats the question as she
turns toward her husband and he says "18" ??? How many times have you repeated a
question asked of you because you do not understand why someone should ask the
question. I am 66 and I have done that innumerable times. Assuming some
of the girls are lying about age, they are not stupid and are not going to
change the story because of DNA testing!!! But thy might lie in order to stay
with their children. I would!
It's not misrepresentation. It's incompetence on the part of the State of Texas.
CPS lies not us I know....
If all these "single mothers" are collecting welfare, shouldn't there be lots of
documentation to identify their children?
This is a nightmare, you are accused of child endangerment by a hoaxter. The
state takes your kids. Puts them into fostercare, threatenes to put them up for
adoption.The saying comes to mind, they came for the Jews, I was
silent, they came for the union members I stayed silent. They came finally for
me.Where is the ACLU, Where is the public, where is common sense?What is becoming of America?
I predicted that the number of children and adults would change when the mothers
were separated from their children. If a girl lied and said that she was over
18, to be able to protect her 'husband', she would lose the right to be with her
children. If she admitted that she was under 18, she would be allowed to stay
with her children. I'm presuming these young mothers have a stronger maternal
instinct, than their desire to be a young mistress. Even if the girl believes
that she will go to hell for leaving the compound, or not obeying and protecting
the men, she would probably choose to be with her children. Did you really
think that she would let them take her children out in the evil world when she
could admit her age and stay with her children.
I've been following this for a few days. Here's a list of things CPS has told
the media were evidence:(1) A hoaxed phone call.(2) A
bed found in a temple--no forensic evidence recovered. Expert testimony said
that that wasn't unusual and that no "Mormon" group would allow sexual relations
in a temple, despite the salacious imaginings of CPS officers. (3) A
rather small percentage (out of hundreds) of teenage women that were or had been
pregnant and "looked underage". No proof of age. (4) Between 20-30
adult women taken and held for a week because they also "looked underage" but
weren't. That'll be a lawsuit.We're supposed to take this all as
unquestioned truth from an agency that lacked even the competence to get an
accurate count of the number of children they took for the first week. Now
they're taking DNA and assigning numbers. They'll probably mess that up too.
The Crayola crayon was invented in 1903.It has been reported on tv that
kind peoplebrought crayons for the FLDS children.The children did
not know what to do withthe crayons.Post writers keep harping about
ConstitutionalRights. I won first place in a Bill of Rightsessay
contest, so I KNOW THAT FOR EVERY FREEDOMYOU HAVE, THERE IS A
CORRESPONDING RESPONSIBILITY.,Don't children in the 21st Century have a
rightto know how to use a crayon?"Contrarywise", there is a huge
picture windowhere and it doesn't take a rocket scientistto see the
light.The FLDS have been given their freedoms forover 100 years,
violated their correspndingresponsibilities, and now must face the
consequences.I don't live in Texas, but even I can seethat Texas
sees the light in the big picturewindow.It is the most mind-boggling
sociological,psychological, medical and ECONOMICAL eventin American
history dealing with a groupof USA residents. It will be written about in
college textbooks. It has nothing to do withpersecution.SEE THE BIG
PICTURE?Texas will ensure that these children will havea chance to
paint their future with more thanjust crayons.
If underaged girls are forced to marry and have children that is clearly wrong.
"admitting that you are a child with children of your own would
have been too much exposure to liability." Sure would but not to me.
Liability to the Father!! Remember I am a child with children. No liability for
me unless later if it is proven that I am indeed an adult and they charge me
with a crime.
I don't see that the state is doing anything wrong so far.My opinion
may change as this goes on. But so far so good.Sorry if you think
me heartless...I'm a mommy of 5 myself and love my children more than anything.
I am also a religous person. But that doesn't change the fact that we are to
obey the laws of the land. So with that said, FLDS members either need to obey
the laws or continue to break the laws and go to jail.As far as laws
to stop the whole polygamy lifestyle, I'm not sure how anyone will ever do that.
As long as the man and all his girlfriends are happy living together, who says
they can't. They aren't legally married.
In almost, if not every state the CPS can remove ..AND KEEP.. children ..
without a warrant..without evidence ... without a jury ... without a
trial!The "hearings" are not trials ...and.. nearly all "hearings"
are held with the public barred.Records of "hearings" kept from the
public and news media AND are often SEALED for YEARS.There is
nothing similar to a fair trial. ***Please do
not sit back and allow total disregard forour rights, the law, our
CONSTITUTION and the freedoms our soldiers are fighting and dying for.At least you can SPEAK UP and require our Governors, Senators and
Representatives to DO WHAT IS RIGHT. ***Some studies show that more children are abused ... physically, sexually
and mentally in foster care than when left with "accused parents".The cost of close supervision by DEPARTMENT employees is substantially LESS
and FAR MORE effective than removal.Why did The Texas CPS not simply
have the men and/or any suspected abusers removed and LET THE CHILDREN STAY
where they were happy and comfortable. Do a search for
CaptiveFLDSChildren to learn more about the Texas situation.
Watching the breaking up of this abusive cult has been like watching one of the
best movies ever made. Watching the buses take away the kids is heartwarming.
It will give them a fighting chance in life. Utah, Arizona, Colorado, or South
Dakota... How about a sequel.
To American; You are correct in that CPS does not need a jury trial to remove
and keep children. Their goal is to remove endangered children from the
potentially harmful environment. CPS could not simply remove the abusers because
they did not know who was and was not an abuser. In individual family cases CPS
will yank the children out of the home and if there is a nursing child keeping
the mother with the child would not even be considered. The Texas CPS was quite
lenient in letting mothers stay with the children as long as they did. Go Texas,
I will weep for any child returned to the YFZ compound.
You claim that they collect welfare so there should be records. Unfortunately,
they also commit fraud when they lie with their information as they do, hence
the term welfare fraud which is what they actually commit.
I hope they find who the fathers are. I was wonder if the men who appeared on tv
were the only fathers to all those kids in custody? Or are there other men still
hiding? It looks like just a few men in the cult may be fathers to most of the
kids in custody. It looks like there are tons and tons of mothers, with no
husbands hanging around. Interesting and very weird.
I can't understand, in this child abuse case how the state would allow these
women to be set free to return to this ranch in Texas. How can these women
beleive that allowing your daughters to have sex and marry old men at the age of
13yrs or younger I don't doubt. Is normal. Yea, right that is why their are
living on a compound away from the real world-have children have sex with older
men or within family is not a call from God.
Haven't seen HIM on any national media, now have we? Hmmm...
The world watches! I'm not an attorney so the legal aspects I leave to
the courts. I'm a responsible adult. I'm a woman. As such I listen to the
women who have left this cult that tell us the facts as they know it. They have
spoken about physical water tortue to babies to keep them quiet and of being
"assigned" to men as wives. In slave trading days that was called being on the
auction block. Women were assets lsited in slave traders livestock books. Don't
these women have a since of wonder or the world and want more education for
their children? I've heard these brave boys who were "asked to leave" speak on
the talk shows; they cannot speak proper English--they have no language skills.
To the Women of the Warren Jeffs cult (and it is a CULT). Be Brave
and Coureagous The World can be a wonderul and exciting place to explore. Do Not
Live in Fear. Fear is what dominates you. Overcome it and lead your children
into a new world.
"The state takes your kids. Puts them into fostercare, threatenes to put them up
for adoption."Your kids are in protective custody only until Texas
determines that it's safe to return them to your home.If you haven't
abused your kids and you aren't planning to marrying off your 13 year old
daughter to a 50 year old buddy of yours, you don't have to worry about losing
your kids permanately.
It's funny, this day in age people thing they are entitled to know the evidence
in a case. Evidence isn't publically released so defendants' rights to a fair
trial are preserved. If all the evidence is released, the public can form their
own opinions on a case before it goes to trial and jurors would go to a case
with a decision already made destroying the defendant's right to a "fair" trial.
No criminal charges have been filed yet at this point, so any
evidence of such isn't being publically disclosed. At this point they are just
deciding the fate of the children, using the least amount of evidence necessary.
Once criminal charges are pressed we'll get to see all the evidence. Everyone's
hunger for evidence will be satisfied and at that point the same people
screaming the FLDS were wronged will be demanding the heads of the
"husbands."I find it sadly amusing people on here want the children
to go back to the place where the children were abused, denied their agency and
For those interested in what's happening in Texas on all sides of the argument,
please do a search for "genocidewatch". Go to their web site and read the "What
is genocide?" page. Among other useful information, you will read the
following:"Excerpt from the Convention on the Prevention and
Punishment of Genocide:"Article II: In the present Convention,
genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in
whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or
mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the
group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in
whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within
the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another
group. After reading this web page, explain to me, if you can, how
what is happening in Texas doesn't resemble item (e) above. By all means, go
after abusers, rescue the abused. But to take all the children of any community
and give them to others looks too much like a form of state-sponsored
Why can't anybody figure out that each of the FLDS children will have the exact
same DNA. It's called inbreading. Are they trying to figure out which ones
don't belong? The only abuse that I can see is making the children live in
"If you haven't abused your kids and you aren't planning to marrying off your 13
year old daughter to a 50 year old buddy of yours, you don't have to worry about
losing your kids pemanently."Sorry buddy, you're not paying
attention. Texas CPS argues that all children must be removed because they are
being taught to accept the sect's practices. So even if you don't commit abuse,
if you believe that the marital practices of the FLDS are condoned by God and
teach that to your children, you are participating in "systemic abuse". The
argument is that what they believe is abusive. That is why they didn't just
take the pregnant teens into custody. Doesn't it trouble you at all that people
can lose their children for what they believe, not just what they do? Many
children in state custody are from a legally married couple that have not
directly participated in underage marriage. But because they believe the tenets
of the FLDS religion, they lost their kids. To quote the original poster - Is
this America?Legal scholars from around the country are beginning to
speak - it doesn't look good for Texas.
I can't image what an FLDS mother is going through. What will Texas say to a
mother that has 4 kids all under the age of 8 or 9? I don't understand why those
mothers can't take their kids that have not been married and simply leave. Is
this a case where one teen bride equals loss of every child in the compound?
What a mess? Will the mothers ever be able to reunite with their kids? CPS seems
to be quick to get those kids out of their parents hands. I guess I don't
understand the law or the logic.
I have never in my life seen a whole farm of cattle being herded around in this
sort of fashion. Despicable! The judge is nothing but a loony-toon
ready for the loony farm. And the LDS church is wise to stay clear
of this horrible mess. Too messy!
"each of the FLDS children will have the exact same DNA"???You
obviously don't have a clue about how DNA identification works do you? Do a
little research and come back when you know what you're talking about.
This isn't genocide, but hopefully, it will force the FLDS to stop abusing their
Yes, the brave new world waits. A word of pornography easily assessable to even
children, drugs, violence, pre-marital sex, adultery, homosexuality, child
abuse; believe it or not the outside world has this too. What else awaits them;
let us see rap music, thong underwear, tattoos, piercing, gangs, abortions,
campus killings, corrupt politicians, war, and terrorism. We rescue them from
their environment and put them right into Sodom and Gomorrah. Maybe we should
clean up our own backyard before we try to reform the FLDS.
Clearly you are also a non-scientist. While it will become clear that many
people are interrelated, they will not appear to be the same person. My brother
is married to my husband's sister and has children. My husband and I have
children. My children's Mitochondrial DNA is completely different than my
brother's children and my son's y chromosomes are completely different than my
nephew's. While this might seem complicated for you to understand, it is fairly
simple to someone that works with d.n.a.
Regardless of where you fall on this, one thing is certain: You break it, you
own it. And this is one broken mess that the State of Texas is going to own for
a long, long time. As with Iraq, it's easy to raid the ranch. What's not easy
is extracting yourself from the havoc you've reeked. And the inability to
extract yourself from such handiwork is a costly business indeed. My money says we'll be out of Iraq long before the FLDS are out of the Texas
court system. And as for Texan's money--I think we all know where that's going,
to the tune of hundreds of millions of tax dollars before this whole sordid
affair wraps up.
This in not just about "what you believe." Is it about what they practice. If
you know a person to be committing rape and congratulate her on her marriage,
you participate. If you know a woman to want to escape and tattle on her, you
are complicit. If you know a boy has been abandoned and also shun him, you are
complicit. If you know that a minor is marrying and do nothing, you are
Wow, I didn't know thong undies were a moral issue. I wonder why you would care
what undies somebody has on. I personally support the singing of the
Sorry buddy, but the kids were removed because all of them were potentially at
risk of being abused.There is no argument that forcing 13-16 y/o
girls into spiritual marriages is sexual abuse -- it's statutory rape,
period.If even one child in a household is being abused, then the
state is obligated to remove all of the children. Since there were multiple
underage girls living in the compound who were either pregnant or were already
mothers, that's evidence of possible abuse.Since the FLDS were
unwilling to identify which children belonged to which households, Texas was
fully within its right and duty to remove all the kids to protect them from
potential further abuse.The same people who are complaining about
Texas overstepping its authority, would be calling for Texas CPS heads to roll
if parents in a single family home gave their 13 year old daughter to a 50 year
old man so he could sexually abuse her, and CPS allowed the parents to retain
custody of the rest of their kids.
there are other kinds of abuse besides sexual and physical. are you all
forgetting about mental abuse??? Good on texas, Just wish Utah would be so
I just wonder how many of these comments are coming from FLDS members trying to
brainwash those of us on the outside? Pedophiles should be prosecuted or worse
and children should be protected which is what is trying to be done by Texas
Child Protective Services. The FLDS is also to blame for the chaos these
children are now being subjected to...it is because of their abuse and lies upon
lies to cover it up that the children are in this sad situation. God(not
Warren!) bless the children and those who have been abused by this CULT!
>>Just thought I would remind those on here feeling sorry for the FLDS and
claiming Texas is picking on this innocent religious group that the "prophet" of
this harmless group of people is behind bars for marrying an unwilling 14 year
old girl to a 19 year old boy
So sad for the parents where is the freedom of choice for the ones who had no
part in any of the abuse.Welcome to the baptist belt
Absolutely stamp out sexual abuse everywhere in the United States! Following
Texas' educational example, we should take DNA from babies and aborted fetuses
of all underage mothers throughout the United States, and order DNA to be taken
from all males in their respective social circles. Statutory rape. And while
we are at it, I have friends whose son has considered becoming an altar boy.
Perhaps we need Texas' finest to ensure their son will have a safe environment
wherever he serves at the altar.
"Know the truth and the truth shall set you free."Did you see Dr.Phil
today? The truth is coming outabout generations of abuse. Tommorrow, the
"lost boys" speak out. Go,Texas.
>>Texas will ensure that these children will havea chance to paint their
future with more thanjust crayons.
Here's an ironic statement:"Evidence isn't publically released so
defendants' rights to a fair trial are preserved. If all the evidence is
released, the public can form their own opinions on a case before it goes to
trial" And then, from the same comment:"I find it
sadly amusing people on here want the children to go back to the place where the
children were abused, denied their agency and raped."Wow, I'm sure glad they'll have a "fair trial".
I feel bad for you white folks. If you don't fight for your race you have lost
everything. I don't want to live in a jewish controled USA. Please begin the war
to save the usa now before it's too late.
>>So with that said, FLDS members either need to obey the laws or continue to
break the laws and go to jail.
I don't think most observers can feel what is happening. More is happening than
can be comprehended within one concept and hence in one determinate linguistic
expression by misguided newscasters.I am LDS. I understand (or believe I
do) the place plural marriage had in our early history. I realize the Lord
giveth and taketh away. Our church fought for its constitutional rights to
worship how, where and what we may. I DO NOT want a return of the old days or
the old ways BUT..........Why are we so quick to condemn. Why are we
so quick to disassociate ourselves. Many FLDS are distant family members. (some
not do distant).If real laws have been broken that is one thing. If
children are being hurt that must stop and is despicable.Mass arrest
seems wrong to me. Children away from their mothers seems wrong to me.
First they will nab the FLDS lawbreakers.Then they will be coming after
the LDS lawbreakers.In this law-of-the-land neocon society we live
in -it's just what they do.
May God save America if there are very many people as judgemental and vindictive
and some of these posts represent.
Texas officials would show strength of character if they would back off now that
the reason for the raid has apparently proven to be a hoax.Instead
they show themselves afraid to show the world they made a mistake.
"I heard on bbc world service that there's some sort of election thing, a non
flds related news story, also going on in the US somewhere... "Elections happen all the time, since when is the taking of over 400 children
based upon a hoax and then the government refusing to give them back not serious
People - we are forgetting that we do not have all the facts at this point and
should not be making judgements about the preceedings until we have all the
facts - which may be never. I am ashamed of the know-it-all attitudes I have
seen on this forum.
Ever heard of the Danites? You can be certain the FLDS have. I hope Texas
officials do the right thing. Now that this has been shown to be based upon a
hoax, I hope Texas officials have the good sense and strength of character to
back off and not take their babies and kids.
I see no reason why lds, flds, catholic, jewish, atheist, muslim, baptist,
agnostic and all other lawbreakers be arrested for...Breaking the law. Religion
is not the issue but law breaking.
So far, no one has provided a well-reasoned argument why what Texas is doing
cannot be viewed as genocide under Article II (e) of the Convention on the
Prevention and Punishment of Genocide. Just a "This isn't genocide..." comment.
Where's your argument?If the state attempts to stamp out a
religious group by taking ALL their children and giving them to others, that
fits the definition of genocide under international law. Is this not what Texas
CPS is trying to do? If you say no, read their affidavits and their testimony
during the hearing.And by the way, it is the weakest of arguments to
smear anyone who questions the actions of the State of Texas as FLDS or an FLDS
sympathizer. I view them as reprobate apostates, but I can't condone the
wholesale abandonment of human rights in an effort to "fix the problem". It
won't work anyway. They will only become more insular and secretive - Texas has
fufilled the prophesies of their leaders. The approach being pursued by Utah
and Arizona is far more effective in the long run without torturing human
rights. Additionally, Dr. Phil is hardly a reliable source.
Child abuse in any form will never be tolerated in mainstream Christian America.
Yo. I caught part of Dr. Phil, with Jeff's niece. Fondling children is the
norm. Not to mention the whole blood atonement thing. Definitely a bunch of
robotic stepford wives. Very creepy all the way around.
Did anyone notice the comment of Jean Hill, the Democractic candidate for AG on
the issue? She said in the St. George Spectrum that she would open a branch of
the AGs office in Southern Utah to deal with polygamy issues.
Sure our backyard is messed up, that's not the point. The point is these kids
aren't even given the chance to choose what they want in life. Forcing people to
live a certain way is archaic and medival. From your comment, sounds like you
are in favor of forcing everyone to live certain standards. Sounds like you
would prefer a dictatorship or communist government and are in favor of
sensorship, forced curfews and standard uniforms for everyone. I certainly hope
you aren't complaining on here about the FLDS being denied their "rights"
because it sounds as though you aren't in favor of anyone having any rights. How
dare people think for themselves! Did you not read the mental
capacity and decision ability of 16 year olds at the FLDS ranch is just as good
as your average 6 year old's living outside of YFZ Ranch. Sorry, I choose the
messy backyard and the ability to think for myself.
Mink,This is not all of the children belonging to the FLDS. It is only the
group that lived on ONE peice of property which makes it "like" one house. Their
are hundreds if not thousands of children living elswhere that were not a part
of this raid.Not genocide... I hope that answers the question you
It doesn't have to be all the FLDS children in the world to qualify as a
genocidal act. All Tutsis in the world were not subject to Hutu death squads,
just those in Rwanda. Does that mean what went on in Rwanda was not genocide?
This is essentially all FLDS children in Western Texas.Besides, many
posters here and elsewhere have called for the same kind of raids in Utah,
Arizona, South Dakota, etc. Would that somehow bother you more than this?We'll see if the "ranch was a single domicile" argument holds up on
lengthy appeal. I doubt it will.
The Deseret News either conveniently forgot to report it or just didn't do a
good job or reporting, but here's a what CNN is reporting: "The
initial count was rushed, they said, and they have discovered that some females
were not 18 or older, as they claimed. Those young women are now being counted
as minors."So sounds like we had some poor counting, which is
understandable given the large number of kids as well as some lying going on.Deseret News, tell your reporters to ask better questions and try not to
be so biased in your reporting.
But CPS also increased the count for the adult women. So CPS had many more
people there than they originally reported. The ad litems for the children and
attorneys for the parents also agreed yesterday that 20-30 individuals
previously considered underage by CPS are actually adults. The
sound bites on CNN or any other media source will not give a complete picture of
what is happening - none of the media is doing a thorough unbiased job. If you
really want to know what is happening, you need to search numerous sources, and
use your own reason to sort through it.Consider this - if CPS could
not accurately count the children and adults at their "facility", how can ensure
the safety of every individual. Under such circumstances a child could go
missing and they wouldn't know. It is a serious issue.
The State should have had the correct count of people simply by counting them as
they were herded off the Baptist buses the first day. That would not give the
accurate count of adults vs. children because the State seems to be determining
how old people are.The round-up leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Is
the State going to go around and nab all the pregnant teens in the schools
across the state because they shouldn't be having sex? Based on this debacle,
it appears they should.
Much has been stated about the children and the women, and while I think the
state of Texas has proceeded properly, I might have done things a little
differently.Had I been in charge I would have allowed the women and
children to stay at their compound, but would have rounded up all the adult
males. We are forgetting that THEY are the PREDATORS.Many of them
surrounded the "temple" (hurts to call it that) in protest against the
authorities, and that would have an EASY point in time to have apprehended all
of them on suspicion of statutory rape. Could have been done with a single
warrant.If the are connected via DNA to underage pregnancies, they
should be given stiff prison sentences, or perhaps voluntary chemical
castration.Nobody talks about the cost of taking care of an
intellectually disturbed child who is a product of inbreeding. Chemical
castration, although extreme, would send a message that sexual abuse is not
tolerated, especially when in deals with an innocent child.Girls
13-17 are not emotionally or physically equipped to deal with the rigors of
pregnancy or adulthood. Let's not deny these kids their childhood.
So you have to be white to step up and defend constiutional due process and
mother-child bonds? Whites joined the African Americans to help with their civil
rights and even were beat up along side their African American brothers in the
lines. If other races refuse to fight b/c FLDS is white, then wait until your
race has to fight another battle of civil rights in your own backyard regarding
this issue... We ALL live under this Consitution--regardless of race and if this
is glossed over and allowed this will affect us ALL one way or the other...
Prosecute the abuse..keep the babies, toddlers, and young ones in somekind of
refugee camp and CPS can de-program them all they want--just take your State
Witness Psychiatrist Perry's advice that not keeping them together will be
detrimental.. they can't even follow their own expert's advice--what kind of "in
the best interest of the child is that"? They just used him for their goals and
ditched what they didn't like. Guys, FLDS are not the only ones to have their
children hearded off and sold to the State for adoption with no evidence of
abuse--just presumption. Google Parentalrights org(anization) and read CPS
I ran out of words but I was meaning keep the mothers (who are "brainwashed"
--we all are, it is just "dangerous" if it does not suit State agendas--I am not
condoning child brides or rape) and children together in the refugee camps and
work this out. I did not realize the true trama until I looked up
captivefldschildren -- I wept. Regardless of what these perverts did to their
girls these children will HATE us for how we allowed this to happen to them-to
rip all that is precious to them away and stuff it down their throats to hurt
their fathers and mothers. Keep the children and the mothers out of this unless
individual evidence is present in this case. Gosanangelo reports that a state
district judge urged that before mothers are separated to do a case by case
scenario.. Do we think Barbara Walthers will comply????
The fact that the children did not use the crayons and coloring books brought to
them does not mean that they have never seen or used a crayon. Pictures from inside the YFZ ranch are available on the internet and one
picture clearly shows a crayon drawing on the wall that was done by a young
child. The child drew a dump truck described in his printing as a dump truck
driving on the freeway to pick something up. Many children find
coloring books boring, restrictive, and banal. This is especially true of
children who are used to creating their own work.
I guess my first reply to "WHERE ARE THERE DADS?" was sharp enough to be
considered offensive. So, I'll try again more calmly.The State of
Texas has removed all their children which seems to qualify under Article II (e)
of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide. Others have
called for these raids to be replicated throughout the country.Now
we have someone calling for the chemical castration of the men, which falls
under Article II (d) of the genocide convention; i.e., it is a means to prevent
them from having more children. All that's left is calling for the FLDS to be
executed. This is not a Jim Jones or David Koresh cult that sprang
up in the last few years. This is a long-standing culture that is still stuck
in the 19th century when arranged marriages and 14-year-old brides were
commonplace all over the country. I agree that we are more enlightened now
about women's rights and childhood. Deft action should be taken to remove the
lunatics and true evildoers and to push them into compliance with the child
abuse laws - but these calls for genocidal acts are out of line.
How has no lawyer contested the testing of these children and their parents?This
is a 5th amendment right not to incriminate yourselves. Uggh, this
judge is just plain evil. Is there nothing that we the people can do?
What are you talking about jewish control, I believe the jewish have been
persecuted more than any other group of people throughout history.
I have only seen two men claim to have some connection to these woman. So who
and where are the dads? Why don't the FLDS men put their cowardly feet forward
so we can see who they are?by the way, the LDS religion is nothing
like the FLDS cults. No resemblance whatsoever. Go look at their cultist walls
of prophets...none the same.
If all FLDS children are removed from the ranch, what will happen regarding
future births? Will Texas CPS organize a monthly pickup?
I'am a kid as they call children I never remember sexual abuse never I could say
thatmillions of times.
@Who Are The Dads? | 7:33 p.m. Apr. 22, 2008The First 3 on their
website are held in common with the LDS Church and the AUB, that is:-
Joseph Smith, Jr.- Brigham Young- John TaylorThe next 3
are held in common with the AUB:- John W. Woolley- Lorin C.
Woolley- John Y. BarlowThe last 3 are from after the split
with the AUB:- Leroy S. Johnson- Rulon Jeffs- Warren JeffsThe organisation of the FLDS church only occurred during the reign of
the last 3.
sI am not concerned right now about the number of kids there---the main problem
is that these people are bleeding "the beast" aka the U>S. Government of
millions of dollars with their scams. Also, in addition to these welfare
checks, etc., is it true that they have a hand in video gambling, etc.?
Wow! now FLDS are forcing FLDS kids to post on here. This just keeps getting
sicker and stinker!TO: AJ & 8:16So what's your problem?
No one cares about your false hoods.Nonetheless the LDS church is
the true church and they don't hide behind the skirts of ladies. We have the
true line of authority.
One of the reason the number is children is changing is the State of Texas is
now "encouraging" the women/children to lie. They told the women: If you are
over age 17/18 and have a child, they child will be taken away from you and you
HAVE to leave them or go to a shelter without them. Either way you will be
separated from your baby.... BUT, if you tell us you are UNDERAGE you can stay
with your baby. What would you do if you were age 19 with a new baby? Tell
your real age and have your nursing baby taken away or lie and say you were 16
so you could stay with it? This is Sophie's Choice.
This is the result of FLDS thumbing their noses at the law for 100 years.
If indeed a significant number of young women have been determined to be
actually adults then CPS has been wrong when it said they were not adults. So if
they seem to look younger, how can we be sure that any of these are under 17.
But just because they have been wrong in some cases does not prove they are
wrong in all. There must be at least a few they are right about , they simply
better not be wrong about all of them. Angie Voss of the CPS testified
under oath that there was at least one of these underage pregnant, or with a
child in each of the 19 households. Clearly that is going to prove to be false.
She probably honestly believed it was true when she testified. I wonder if she
All this started with a few lies told by a want to be prophet. Sound familiar?
Is it just me or do all the children look alike?
The kids look alive and are waving and are happy, for a change. I saw the one
news clip of the kids running with an adult in a yellow vest, they were having
fun. These kids are probably not having to much separation anxiety, cause they
don't know who to be anxious about being separated from.
FLDS founders rejected God's prophet long ago when they refused to believe
Wilford Woodruff when he said God told him it was time for the church to stop
practicing polygamy.I have never understood how a people who claim
they will follow God's prophet no matter how hard it gets, justify not following
the prophet when he told them God commanded that the practice of polygamy
cease?No matter, the story is now once again turning to trying to
confuse people about who Mormon's are and what they believe."... in
an era full of imposters and fanatics, the Mormons alone are deprived of their
rights." Missouri governor Daniel Dunklin"Americans have but one
native religion [Mormonism] and that one is the sole apparent exception
to the American rule of universal toleration". Scribner's Monthly
Lawlessness.The Old west.
@FLDS Deception | 9:03 p.m. Apr. 22, 2008Just to set the record
straight, I am a 37 year old male from the Netherlands with 1 wife and 3 kids. I
have never been a part of the FLDS. I have only ever been baptized and confirmed
a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I also uphold the
Church as being the only true Church on the face of this Earth.As
for my previous post, I was only pointing out the inaccuracy of the following
statement: "Go look at their cultist walls of prophets...none the same." As it
turns out the 1st 3 on their wall of Presidents are the same as ours.Let God judge between you and me. As for me, I forgive you your unfounded
Sadly every denomination in the US has or has had pedophiles and rapists.Here
in NYC you have the Hassidic Jewish Cults.Though monogomous they tend to have
large familys.567 children.Most are poor.Very insulated from the world.Guess who
foots the Bill.Maybe us NY Taxpayers ought to hire this Judge Walthers and CPS.I
think not.This is a series of days of Infamy in the history of Texas.We are all
at risk our familys our children our grandchildren the longer this cultural
religious genocide continues shielded by the color of state law.
A debacle that's been practiced for too many years. Yes, the women are so
brainwashed; that comes from a life of abuse in itself; their life history
repeating over and over, they know no better. Let us all pray that this comes to
a clear and quick end for everyone concerned. Funny how Texas Social workers
jumped on this-How many times have you heard a child had been abused over and
over and DPSS turned a blind eye until it was too late? Maybe the rest of the US
needs to pay closer attention to how Texas handles these types of complaints.
Why didn't they arrest the men? Where are the men? Instead they've arrested the
children.Some may argue with that, but think of it. They've torn
children away from their mothers, away from their homes, and away from their
siblings. They've put them in an environment they don't understand and won't
allow them to go home. Sounds like an arrest to me.And I can't
really blame the mothers. They don't know any other life. It's not as if they
had choices because if you don't know that you have choices, you don't have
choices.Imagine if the government decided to go after the group or
religion you belong to?And no I'm not pro-polygamy. I've wanted for
years for the law to crack down on these men that marry children and rape them.
But they haven't cracked down on the men. They punished the victims.
go to fldstruth.org
All of you, read Carolyn Jessop's book. You will ALL have a very different view
of the FLDS.
Okay so Mink Genocide is a bit extream dont you think?They went in and
discovered pregnant teens yes?Would that not suggest at the very least
willing sex between a minor and a MAN seeing as they turn the boys away as they
become teenagers? Can we remember that even if the teen is willing it is still
considered statchatory rape. (spelling is wrong i already know that) So are you
saying we should just take the pregnant teens and what WAIT for MORE underage
girls to become pregnant. The state HAD to take those children or break the law,
seeing as any child that could be in danger has to be removed. We have to look
at facts and one of those happenes to be thay there are many underage mothers at
the ranch. Some sort of sex abuse had to be going on, willingly or forced it is
still a crime to have sex with a minor. THIS IS NOT GENOCIDE IT IS THE
PROTECTION OF CHILDREN. And i am happy they treated it as one household. It was
gated, as if it were one household. We have to protect all of them right?
Thank you Walther, best attorney ever!!!! These kids are better off in these
foster homes. Now they will have a chance to have there own ideas, thoughts,
plans in life, options, & won't be sheltered by FLDS so-called moms & dads.
The reason the lawyer didnt contest DNA was they even came out and said
they didnt know who the parents were read back through all the new posts
Why on earth didn't CPS just take the girls over, say, ten and leave the rest of
the children with their mothers? What? Going by the book? It's child abuse, pure
and simple, to seperate small children, much less nursing babies, from their
moms. Can you imagine the terror of a two-year-old in a strange bed in a strange
house? It gives me shivers.I am not religious, but I am a mother.
The tenets of the wacko FLDS church look too much to me like a way for the alpha
males silverbacks in that troop to control their young male rivals and, of
course, monopolize the breeding females. However, the thought of all those
children ripped from the arms of their mothers and sent to live with strangers
makes me spitting mad.
If any of the children were hurt or died had CPS left the younger children in
the custody of the FLDS, you would be the first to scream that ALL the children
especially the most helpless nursing babies should have been removed. You can't
have it both ways. In ANY other child abuse case, the children are ALL removed
and the mothers may not have ANY contact. This is preferential treatment that
neither you nor I would have if the tables were turned on us. Again, this is
preferential treatment that as individuals you or I WOULD NOT have.You
also forgot to add how readily those same mothers were to abandon their excess
sons. Funny how many mothers are NOT returning to the ranch but instead going
to safe houses. My how the tune is changing with only 7 returning to the FLDS
Why is nobody talking about the forcible taking of DNA evidence as a violation
of the fifth ammendment prohibition against forcible self incrimination? What
happened to, "No person...shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a
witness against himself..."?
Rhe was absolutely correct. I was horrified at children being torn from their
parents. Then I read Carolyn Jessup's book, "Escape" and applaud that Texas is
handling this mess ending years of abuse and corruption. If a woman wants her
children, let her fight for them and prove they are worthy of raising those
children in a non-abusive loving environment. How could loving mothers let
their teen sons be dumped on an interstate and told they can not come home (the
lost boys). For shame on those mothers who let their teen age daughters marry
men 30, 40 years older than themselves to add to their family's "political"