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Other FLDS enclaves are feeling scrutiny

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  • good
    April 17, 2008 6:35 a.m.

    Scrutiny and more. First Texas, then the rest.

  • Not in America
    April 17, 2008 8:43 a.m.

    This is sick and hypothetically anyone could just start a cult and say that everything they do is "god's will" and begin brainwashing their children so there is nothing else. This should all be illeagal and all of these men need to be put in jail for their shovenism and the women need to understand that the sexual revolution has taken place--everyone should have the right to live as they choose, but these women/children have never been able to truly "choose," as those who weren't brainswashed were held captive or were too scared to run.

  • The Texans
    April 17, 2008 10:08 a.m.

    They either pass muster or they don't. This business of behind walls and fences and ranches is counter productive.

  • decriminalization
    April 17, 2008 10:11 a.m.

    I have no problem with consenting adults living a lifestyle that suits them, and I think most people would agree. My understanding is that many polygamists are only legally married to one wife anyway to avoid bigamy charges. I am not a polygamist and it would never be a lifestyle that I would want, but the FLDS scrutiny has apparently hurt other polygamist families who are hard-working, law-abiding people integrated into mainstream societymany who live along the Wasatch front.

    If polygamists want to fight to decriminalize bigamy, living in a secret compound or closed off communities and committing crimes against children and women is definitely not the way to go about it. Warren Jeffs made horrible decisions that cost all polygamists any chance they had to gain public support for decriminalizing the lifestyle. Hopefully the one thing that does come out of the incident in Texas is the message to adults who do practice polygamy, that this country will not stand for abuse of any kind under the guise of religion.

  • Sylvia
    April 17, 2008 10:29 a.m.

    Where are all of the men? They're supposed to be priestly and honored? Don't make me laugh. They've scattered like roaches.

    Even though I don't agree with that lifestyle, kudos to the women interviewed on CNN and other networks.

  • HD
    April 17, 2008 10:30 a.m.

    I believe we are seeing only the tip of the iceburg. If you have watched any of the interviews of the women and looked at the pictures, you see an almost zombie-like appearance. They refuse to answer direct questions as if they did not hear the question. You do not see any interviews with the men. There is simply too much smoke here and its time we look for the fire. There is something inherently wrong with isolating people and controlling their thoughts and minds that is no longer accepted in society as a whole. I feel for the children that are trapped in this situation. When children are interviewed they don't even know their names or fathers. I can understand the frustration that the Texas authorities feel as they are struggling to help these children. Its time to get to the bottom of this issue.

  • You know...
    April 17, 2008 10:33 a.m.

    if they (FLDS) could just get rid of the under-age marriages, abuses in all forms, incest, and forbidding their members to come and go as they please, they wouldn't be scrutinzed at all...

  • What is brainwashing?
    April 17, 2008 11:00 a.m.

    The term gets thrown around a lot, but I've never really heard a good definition for "brainwashing," much less anything that would make a legal definition. For instance, is home-schooling considered brainwashing? What about Sunday School for children? Or a political discussion around the dinner table that leans heavily to one party's ideologies?

    Or perhaps you refer to insulating them from the rest of the world. Then is preventing children from seeing X-rated material considered brainwashing? What about letting them go to Disneyland unaccompanied? Or drive a car? Drink alcohol?

  • Anonymous
    April 17, 2008 11:07 a.m.

    "shovenism is criminal." How could we have freedom to be shovenistic, not in America. This is the land of cultural moralism by majority. My advise don't go against sexual revolution.

  • BMM
    April 17, 2008 11:31 a.m.

    This has nothing to do with religion. It's about dominating and controlling women.

  • FLDS effect
    April 17, 2008 12:07 p.m.

    I have no problem with consenting adults living an alternative lifestyle that suits them. My understanding is that many polygamists are only legally married to one wife anyway to avoid bigamy charges. I am not a polygamist and it would NEVER be a lifestyle that I would want, but the FLDS scrutiny has apparently hurt other polygamist families who are hard-working, law-abiding people integrated into mainstream societysome who reportedly live along the Wasatch front.

    If polygamists want to fight to decriminalize bigamy, living in a secret compound or closed-off communities and committing crimes against children and women is definitely not the way to go about it. Warren Jeffs made horrible decisions that cost all polygamists any chance they had to gain public support for decriminalizing the lifestyle. Hopefully the one important thing that does come out of the incident in Texas is the message to adults who do practice polygamy--that this country will not stand for abuse of any kind under the guise of religion.

  • FLDS effect
    April 17, 2008 12:36 p.m.

    Sorry about the duplicate post. The Dnews moderators must be a little slow this AM. :-)

  • jc
    April 17, 2008 12:44 p.m.

    The women are evasive with their answers about their husbands because they have been advised by their attorneys not to discuss them. I saw the Texas attorney general on TV saying the women have admitted to bigamy because they say they are living in polygamous "spiritual" marriages. If they are not legal marriages how can it be bigamy? He also said the "spiritually" married girls under 18 have been sexually abused because their marriages are not legal. How can it be both ways?

  • Teresa
    April 17, 2008 12:57 p.m.

    This phenomen has nothing to do with God or religion. This is a lifestyle for dominating male persons, but where this women come from? How were these women educated! Or were they educated at all? What fate are they going to create for their own daugther? or the father who are able to endure the sexual exploitation their own children? Many question reuqire answear!

  • an answer
    April 17, 2008 1:17 p.m.

    What is brainwashing? Simple. When mothers tell their church authorities that their daughters have reached puberty, so that they might be married...that is brainwashing. When a mother allows her 14 year old son to be tossed out of the compound with only the clothes on his back and a 6th grade education to lead a life of prostitution to get food in his belly because a bunch of "royal lineage" men want multiple wives....you have brainwashing. When you allow you daughter to be married off to your brother...that is brainwashing. When you allow your daughter to marry your brother even though you know you are a carrier for Fumerase Deficiency making a pregnancy likely to end in a child with an IQ of 25...that is brainwashing. When you are 30 years old and a grandmother...that is brainwashing. When you support your prophet despite the fact that he married a 14 year old girl to her 19 year old uncle leading to marital rape...that is brainwashing. Are we clear yet? This issue isn't polygamy but child abuse, child sexual abuse, abandonment, rape, and incest.

  • JRD
    April 17, 2008 1:22 p.m.

    This YFZ Ranch raid is about protecting children. The citizens of Texas and the USA have established laws to protect children. Regardless of your religion, if you abuse a child (whether you claim to be married to her or not) you will be held accountable for your actions.

    Laws against polygamy may be unconstitutional, but they are laws none-the-less. Laws that protect children are and always will be constitutional. We can argue the legality of plural marriage, but we cannot argue the legality of allowing or enabling men to physically and/or sexually abuse children.

    We must unite to protect these girls, regardless of our religous convictions and tenets.

  • Larry King
    April 17, 2008 1:29 p.m.

    I watched Larry King he was asking them, have you ever seen old man marry younger women? They were evasive. Who cares about the fact that there was zero articulation in the question.

  • Colorado
    April 17, 2008 1:33 p.m.

    Send them to Colorado, I will welcome them and leave them alone unless they want a neighborly relationship. Which I would have no problem with.

  • saddest part of all
    April 17, 2008 1:48 p.m.

    And the saddest part of all is that somebody has convinced somebody else that God told them to do it.

    And the sheared sheep believe it.

  • wierd
    April 17, 2008 1:58 p.m.

    I have a question about FLDS..

    I read somewhere each family is restricted to one color for the female dress. So in theory if you study the pictures can we assume the women wearing the same color dress are all married to the same guy?

  • Lori
    April 17, 2008 2:12 p.m.

    Where are the boys? I have heard on the radio 24 of the 400 kids taken are boys. I would hope if these numbers are even close to the truth that the Texas authorities will be searching the "compound" for mass graves. Seems to me that China would be the perfect place for them to relocate their next YFZ ranch. FLDS could trade infant boys for the much prized female and everybody is happy or so numb and in denial that it doesn't really matter as long as Jim Bob is gettin' some.

  • Hey Colorado
    April 17, 2008 2:15 p.m.

    You said that you would be a good neighbor to the FLDS. Would you return a pregnant 13 year old that escaped from the community back to the community? Or, would you call authorities since she was clearly raped perhaps in incest? If a 14 year old boy that was, kicked out of the community because he was competition for females, came to your door, would you shun him like a good neighbor? Or, would you give him a place to live since he would be kicked out with only the clothes on his back and no money for so much as a soda? And sorry, they aren't interested in being your friend, in fact you would be despised by them. They aren't just polygamists. They are polygamists that perpetrate crimes against children from the top (Warren Jeffs) on down.

  • this is why
    April 17, 2008 2:09 p.m.

    And this is why the pioneers of '47 crossed the Great Divide only to endure the hardships ...
    you know the rest.

    And now we know a bit more about WHY they immigrated.

  • yeah right
    April 17, 2008 3:16 p.m.

    then how come when a bunch of native americans pull up to enjoy the great outdoors...you see a whole bunch of sheriffs , happens in Moab, utah , cortez , colorado and so forth. Then these felonous people who are committing them year end and year out are given carte blanche with the legal sector. We even have veterans who have the purple heart in our group as we are all out doors and nobody drinks either...good neighbors yeah right!

  • Anonymous
    April 17, 2008 3:11 p.m.

    when is the last time a wife was prosecuted after all it takes two to tango

  • Anonymous
    April 17, 2008 3:45 p.m.

    All of this is the skankiest of the skanky.

  • Abe
    April 17, 2008 3:40 p.m.

    Why don't the women speak with any inflection in their voices? Are they on some kind of drug? They have no passion, no righteous indignation, no fire in the belly. If you're a mother and your children were taken from you in this way, and you get a chance to talk to Larry King, would you be so dead-panned?

  • To: an answer
    April 17, 2008 3:57 p.m.

    Brainwashing is any type of indoctrination that is not backed by fact...yes, Sunday School falls into that category.

    Think about it.

    Westerners are typically Christian. Indians are typically Hindu. Middle-East are typically Muslim. This is all due to regionalized brainwashing. They all think they are right, but none have any proof. Mormons fall into this category as well.

  • Ronald A. Young
    April 17, 2008 4:27 p.m.

    Good! However, lets watch out for the Religious Freedom Issue. This is America. As long as Federal and State Laws are being complied with, then FLDS need to be left in peace. That said the State of Texas, Utah, Arizona, and other places now have Probable Cause to Investigate, some need a Report in order to take action some do not. I want the FLDS Religious Freedoms protected because if you do not there will soon be another group that attention is brought to, and then another, and we do not need that. You have the right to believe in anything you want to believe in legal or moral or not. The problem comes when you break State and Federal Laws. The action of you belief. You may be Homosexual but if you never act upon it you can still be an outstanding member of the Church. Your just most likely a single. Unless you Merry as a cover up. Point is in America you do not Merry more then One Wife and you do not merry and have Sex with underage girls. Segments of this Group have done this and this is what must be stopped.

  • awesomeron
    April 17, 2008 4:45 p.m.

    I really only care about the victims, and the Victims being taken care of. That said, I do not want Religious Freedom to Become a Victim. In America you have Freedom of Religion and Freedom From Religion. No matter how you where born. No one can make you be anything after age 18. No one can be allowed to break a State or Federal Law and cover it as being part of their Culture or Religion. More so if the Breaking of the Law involves another person. Such as Forced Marriage, Marriage Underage, or Sex with underage people. Drinking, Smoking, or what ever. You cannot perform FGM on someone, or hunt them down and kill them because they merry outside the faith or embrace another faith. Because all of that is against the Law in the USA. You can at 17 put someone in Outward Bound Programs who is not following Church Standards. Your $30,000. However, the Verse after Honor the Mother and Father, so their day may be long. Says. Parents do not provoke your Children to Wrath. Just a thought.

  • Anonymous
    April 17, 2008 4:41 p.m.

    Skanky religion.
    Skanky old men.
    Skanky way of life.

    May God have mercy on their souls!

  • Talisyn
    April 17, 2008 5:36 p.m.

    Quote:
    Larry King | 1:29 p.m. Apr. 17, 2008
    I watched Larry King he was asking them, have you ever seen old man marry younger women? They were evasive. Who cares about the fact that there was zero articulation in the question. End Quote


    the irony of this statement had me in stitches. Has Mr. King ever had a wife his age?

  • Daniel Evensen
    April 17, 2008 5:59 p.m.

    Honestly, if they aren't forcing underaged teen girls into marriage, why all the secrecy? I'm not so convinced that bigamy laws will stand up in court these days. If the FLDS church could put an end to organized pedophilia, they wouldn't have to hide like this.

  • Juan Figuroa
    April 17, 2008 6:24 p.m.

    Let us all wear black armbands to mourn the deaths of Due Process and Rule of Law.

    Tearing 400 children away from their families on the basis of a single dubious, anonymous -- and, I suspect, entirely fabricated -- phone call. How does this happen in America?

    Most horrifying report from this debacle: "The judge must decide whether it is in the children's best interest to place them back into mainstream society."

    Oh, really. Next up: The Amish. Let's get 'em, boys.

  • Anonymous
    April 17, 2008 6:40 p.m.

    On thepetitionsite there is a petition titled free-the-innocent-flds, meaning the children. The comments are well worth reading. Here is part of one:

    "The state of Texas "rescued" me 44 years ago. I ended up in an adoptive home where I really WAS abused. Here's what foster care is like. You get no answers; you are a THING. They give you new parents, and tell you to forget your old ones. You're a new happy family. The state expects this to happen because it says so. Utterly false. I know."

  • sprd
    April 17, 2008 7:01 p.m.

    This question was asked before and I saw No Answer so I will ask it NOW. Where are the boys? Out of over 410 children only 24 boys were found !!! This in itself is very strange...

  • Contrarian
    April 17, 2008 7:40 p.m.

    Religious brainwashing is only one type of mind control and certainly is not the most prevalent. When one's sources of information are limited to public schools and a controlled media the result is people who do not know what constitutional rights are, what due process is, and have no historical perspective. With no personal knowledge of people different from themselves, they simply project onto others, the unexamined contents of their own minds. It isn't surprising that the primary ingredient of such minds is sex.

  • rural utah
    April 17, 2008 8:17 p.m.

    we have some polygamist children at our local high school. They are very respectful and intelligent teenagers. If they would stop with the underage marriages then in my book they are good folks. They love their children and raise them to be their best and respectful to adults and to each other. Consenting adult can believe and live how they want. Just be smart and leave the child marriages alone, god nor the government would not favor taking advantage of innocent children.

  • brainwashing
    April 17, 2008 10:02 p.m.

    It involves manipulation and control of some kind. There are many people taught about religion in an environment of open learning and discussion.

    If you extend the definition to all kinds of 'indoctrination', then science teachers would also be included and I don't think most religion-bashers here would want that. These same people have no idea of the penalties involved in closed communities where brainwashing occurs.

    So many converts are individuals taught initially outside any community or congregation that you could not consider this a form a brainwashing.

    One litmus test for believers and non-believers: are you afraid of other ideas??

  • Dee-dee
    April 17, 2008 11:29 p.m.

    Did any of you GET what "AN ANSWER" said?
    Texas sure has. And they did not go in just because
    of "SARAH". Have you read other accounts on the
    price women and children pay if they want to leave
    the FLDS life and get caught? Believe me, Texas
    has other information that has not come out yet.
    Why do you think they want DNA? FUMERASE DEFICIENCY!
    Do you want tax dollars to go to funding BIRTH DEFECTS caused by arranged marriages with relatives?
    AZ. and Utah did it for YEARS and Texas officials
    will not turn a blind eye with their heads stuck in
    the sand, thank God!
    Read, read other articles and then you will GET IT
    and stop enabling the tragic situation here!
    Constitutional rights do not include inflicting
    ignorance of birth defects on innocent children!

  • Laneah
    April 18, 2008 2:33 a.m.

    I just saw Carolyn Jessop speak out on Nancy Grace.
    She related how her ex-husband FLDS leader took her
    baby son and spanked his bottom repeatedly until
    he cried until he was exhausted. Then her helpless
    baby was placed under a water faucet where he would
    cry more. The process was repeated, which he called
    "breaking them". This instilled so much fear into the child that they would be afraid of their father. The mother, (Carolyn), was young and pregnant with a second child, with severe morning
    sickness, couldn't fight this man, and HER FEAR WAS
    THAT IF SHE FOUGHT HIM, HE WOULD HURT HER CHILD MORE! Folks, these sweet women you may be seeing
    being interviewed on CNN are not going to give the
    real story because they live in fear. They have lived in it so long they believe it is normal.
    The person on Nancy Grace's panel was so grieved
    by Carolyn's story that she cried on air! I cried,too!
    Not every "family" at this compound in El Dorado
    will have a story like this, but as the psychologist
    on Nancy's show put it, some mothers don't recognize
    what abuse is.
    "RELIGIOUS FREEDOM"?? PRAY THIS SICKNESS STOPS!

  • A Right to Die For
    April 18, 2008 10:56 a.m.

    What the police agencies have done is far worse than anything "proven" to date against the FLDS church in El Dorado. I'm not an LDS member and am part of a mainstream Christian religion. The state has virtually made these terrified children orphans, housing them in a dome, what horrible conditions they must endure. Armed vehicles and drawn guns, snipers, you got to be kidding. Where is our religious liberty here? We cannot protect our own rights to religious freedom without protecting all other practices. Ask any judge, the state is terrible at handling children removed from their parents. How long will this legal fiasco continue?

  • Adam
    April 20, 2008 12:56 a.m.

    It shouldn't be a crime to believe or teach your children isolationist principles. Yet these people are basically being punished for teaching their kids a different world view. I say this is modern day persecution.

  • Ann Inderlied
    April 20, 2008 4:07 p.m.

    These poor women are no higher in life than a bunch of brood mares.I don`t know how people can refer to the women as "consenting adults" when they are held captive by the very act of bearing all these children and then not being able to leave with the children if they wanted to as the men would hold the children as a means to control. What I think is sad is one doesn`t see a swing set on the grass or any kind of toy anywhere on the wives little tours.Yet they say the children play on the grass? Where are the teen age boys? There doesn`t seem to be any in evidence....only females and small boys... very strange.It is very sad that the husbands that these women must be so obedient to are hiding behind their skirts and directing them from afar. Consenting adults??? I hardly think so.

  • in texas
    April 22, 2008 12:36 p.m.

    i am in a town near the eldorado compound where some of the children have been brought to. i have seen these children playing with government employees...the small ones play with little bikes, push toys and balls....the big kids (approx 8-12) are playing catch and soccor, laughing and having fun....these kids were not being reserved and withdrawn as noticed when they were with thier "parents". on the compound where was the entertainment and childlike fun for thses kids...i'm not talking new age....but something besides dirt and grass. i have also been in the system and can say they could only benefit from it. if nothing else is gained maybe they learned that they are individuals that can make decisions for themselves. if these children are sent back i hope whoever has these children takes these moments as an oppurtunity to show them that they have personal rights beyond religion.

  • K. Beverly
    April 24, 2008 7:37 p.m.

    With regard to the speech patterns, the members of this faith have led a very closed life. It is similar to the Amish, they also have a very distinctive speech pattern. The men speak in the same pattern. I would just urge everyone to wait until we get the exact truth of the allegations. The only crime (and I do not mean to diminish it) alleged by the state is sexual assault of a child, that is sexual liasons with young women under the age of 17. Who did it is unknown. Where it occurred is unknown. In Texas, it is a defense if the person having sex with a 15 year old and within 3 years of her age, and not related to her so as to constitute incest.

  • Freedom for FLDS
    May 7, 2008 10:25 a.m.

    I am relieved that the state of Texas finally did what no other state would. They are finally stopping the cycle of abuse. The women of the FLDS compound are emotionally abused and treated like dogs. The children are worse off - boys who don't conform are sent away to live in poverty, girls are spiritually married to old men & sexually abused, and children are told they cannot read books or play with toys - they must work or listen to the crazy rants of Warren Jeffs. This is obscene! How can we let this happen in America? These women and children aren't able to make decisions - they are forced into sexual slavery. K. Beverly, wait? WAIT FOR WHAT? For more women & children to be abused? K. Beverly, I want to know if you had the choice to marry a man of your own free will, at a legal age. If you missed it, this is the most horrific crime being tolerated in America today - us allowing young women to become FLDS sexual slaves. Shame on you & all who think this is ok.