Scrutiny and more. First Texas, then the rest.
This is sick and hypothetically anyone could just start a cult and say that
everything they do is "god's will" and begin brainwashing their children so
there is nothing else. This should all be illeagal and all of these men need to
be put in jail for their shovenism and the women need to understand that the
sexual revolution has taken place--everyone should have the right to live as
they choose, but these women/children have never been able to truly "choose," as
those who weren't brainswashed were held captive or were too scared to run.
They either pass muster or they don't. This business of behind walls and fences
and ranches is counter productive.
I have no problem with consenting adults living a lifestyle that suits them, and
I think most people would agree. My understanding is that many polygamists are
only legally married to one wife anyway to avoid bigamy charges. I am not a
polygamist and it would never be a lifestyle that I would want, but the FLDS
scrutiny has apparently hurt other polygamist families who are hard-working,
law-abiding people integrated into mainstream societymany who live along the
Wasatch front.If polygamists want to fight to decriminalize bigamy,
living in a secret compound or closed off communities and committing crimes
against children and women is definitely not the way to go about it. Warren
Jeffs made horrible decisions that cost all polygamists any chance they had to
gain public support for decriminalizing the lifestyle. Hopefully the one thing
that does come out of the incident in Texas is the message to adults who do
practice polygamy, that this country will not stand for abuse of any kind under
the guise of religion.
Where are all of the men? They're supposed to be priestly and honored? Don't
make me laugh. They've scattered like roaches. Even though I don't
agree with that lifestyle, kudos to the women interviewed on CNN and other
I believe we are seeing only the tip of the iceburg. If you have watched any of
the interviews of the women and looked at the pictures, you see an almost
zombie-like appearance. They refuse to answer direct questions as if they did
not hear the question. You do not see any interviews with the men. There is
simply too much smoke here and its time we look for the fire. There is something
inherently wrong with isolating people and controlling their thoughts and minds
that is no longer accepted in society as a whole. I feel for the children that
are trapped in this situation. When children are interviewed they don't even
know their names or fathers. I can understand the frustration that the Texas
authorities feel as they are struggling to help these children. Its time to get
to the bottom of this issue.
if they (FLDS) could just get rid of the under-age marriages, abuses in all
forms, incest, and forbidding their members to come and go as they please,
they wouldn't be scrutinzed at all...
The term gets thrown around a lot, but I've never really heard a good definition
for "brainwashing," much less anything that would make a legal definition. For
instance, is home-schooling considered brainwashing? What about Sunday School
for children? Or a political discussion around the dinner table that leans
heavily to one party's ideologies?Or perhaps you refer to insulating
them from the rest of the world. Then is preventing children from seeing
X-rated material considered brainwashing? What about letting them go to
Disneyland unaccompanied? Or drive a car? Drink alcohol?
"shovenism is criminal." How could we have freedom to be shovenistic, not in
America. This is the land of cultural moralism by majority. My advise don't go
against sexual revolution.
This has nothing to do with religion. It's about dominating and controlling
I have no problem with consenting adults living an alternative lifestyle that
suits them. My understanding is that many polygamists are only legally married
to one wife anyway to avoid bigamy charges. I am not a polygamist and it would
NEVER be a lifestyle that I would want, but the FLDS scrutiny has apparently
hurt other polygamist families who are hard-working, law-abiding people
integrated into mainstream societysome who reportedly live along the Wasatch
front.If polygamists want to fight to decriminalize bigamy, living
in a secret compound or closed-off communities and committing crimes against
children and women is definitely not the way to go about it. Warren Jeffs made
horrible decisions that cost all polygamists any chance they had to gain public
support for decriminalizing the lifestyle. Hopefully the one important thing
that does come out of the incident in Texas is the message to adults who do
practice polygamy--that this country will not stand for abuse of any kind under
the guise of religion.
Sorry about the duplicate post. The Dnews moderators must be a little slow this
The women are evasive with their answers about their husbands because they have
been advised by their attorneys not to discuss them. I saw the Texas attorney
general on TV saying the women have admitted to bigamy because they say they are
living in polygamous "spiritual" marriages. If they are not legal marriages how
can it be bigamy? He also said the "spiritually" married girls under 18 have
been sexually abused because their marriages are not legal. How can it be both
This phenomen has nothing to do with God or religion. This is a lifestyle for
dominating male persons, but where this women come from? How were these women
educated! Or were they educated at all? What fate are they going to create for
their own daugther? or the father who are able to endure the sexual exploitation
their own children? Many question reuqire answear!
What is brainwashing? Simple. When mothers tell their church authorities that
their daughters have reached puberty, so that they might be married...that is
brainwashing. When a mother allows her 14 year old son to be tossed out of the
compound with only the clothes on his back and a 6th grade education to lead a
life of prostitution to get food in his belly because a bunch of "royal lineage"
men want multiple wives....you have brainwashing. When you allow you daughter
to be married off to your brother...that is brainwashing. When you allow your
daughter to marry your brother even though you know you are a carrier for
Fumerase Deficiency making a pregnancy likely to end in a child with an IQ of
25...that is brainwashing. When you are 30 years old and a grandmother...that
is brainwashing. When you support your prophet despite the fact that he
married a 14 year old girl to her 19 year old uncle leading to marital
rape...that is brainwashing. Are we clear yet? This issue isn't polygamy but
child abuse, child sexual abuse, abandonment, rape, and incest.
This YFZ Ranch raid is about protecting children. The citizens of Texas and the
USA have established laws to protect children. Regardless of your religion, if
you abuse a child (whether you claim to be married to her or not) you will be
held accountable for your actions. Laws against polygamy may be
unconstitutional, but they are laws none-the-less. Laws that protect children
are and always will be constitutional. We can argue the legality of plural
marriage, but we cannot argue the legality of allowing or enabling men to
physically and/or sexually abuse children. We must unite to protect
these girls, regardless of our religous convictions and tenets.
I watched Larry King he was asking them, have you ever seen old man marry
younger women? They were evasive. Who cares about the fact that there was zero
articulation in the question.
Send them to Colorado, I will welcome them and leave them alone unless they want
a neighborly relationship. Which I would have no problem with.
And the saddest part of all is that somebody has convinced somebody else that
God told them to do it.And the sheared sheep believe it.
I have a question about FLDS.. I read somewhere each family is
restricted to one color for the female dress. So in theory if you study the
pictures can we assume the women wearing the same color dress are all married to
the same guy?
Where are the boys? I have heard on the radio 24 of the 400 kids taken are boys.
I would hope if these numbers are even close to the truth that the Texas
authorities will be searching the "compound" for mass graves. Seems to me that
China would be the perfect place for them to relocate their next YFZ ranch.
FLDS could trade infant boys for the much prized female and everybody is happy
or so numb and in denial that it doesn't really matter as long as Jim Bob is
You said that you would be a good neighbor to the FLDS. Would you return a
pregnant 13 year old that escaped from the community back to the community? Or,
would you call authorities since she was clearly raped perhaps in incest? If a
14 year old boy that was, kicked out of the community because he was competition
for females, came to your door, would you shun him like a good neighbor? Or,
would you give him a place to live since he would be kicked out with only the
clothes on his back and no money for so much as a soda? And sorry, they aren't
interested in being your friend, in fact you would be despised by them. They
aren't just polygamists. They are polygamists that perpetrate crimes against
children from the top (Warren Jeffs) on down.
And this is why the pioneers of '47 crossed the Great Divide only to endure the
hardships ...you know the rest.And now we know a bit more
about WHY they immigrated.
then how come when a bunch of native americans pull up to enjoy the great
outdoors...you see a whole bunch of sheriffs , happens in Moab, utah , cortez ,
colorado and so forth. Then these felonous people who are committing them year
end and year out are given carte blanche with the legal sector. We even have
veterans who have the purple heart in our group as we are all out doors and
nobody drinks either...good neighbors yeah right!
when is the last time a wife was prosecuted after all it takes two to tango
All of this is the skankiest of the skanky.
Why don't the women speak with any inflection in their voices? Are they on some
kind of drug? They have no passion, no righteous indignation, no fire in the
belly. If you're a mother and your children were taken from you in this way,
and you get a chance to talk to Larry King, would you be so dead-panned?
Brainwashing is any type of indoctrination that is not backed by fact...yes,
Sunday School falls into that category.Think about it. Westerners are typically Christian. Indians are typically Hindu. Middle-East
are typically Muslim. This is all due to regionalized brainwashing. They all
think they are right, but none have any proof. Mormons fall into this category
Good! However, lets watch out for the Religious Freedom Issue. This is America.
As long as Federal and State Laws are being complied with, then FLDS need to be
left in peace. That said the State of Texas, Utah, Arizona, and other places now
have Probable Cause to Investigate, some need a Report in order to take action
some do not. I want the FLDS Religious Freedoms protected because if you do not
there will soon be another group that attention is brought to, and then another,
and we do not need that. You have the right to believe in anything you want to
believe in legal or moral or not. The problem comes when you break State and
Federal Laws. The action of you belief. You may be Homosexual but if you never
act upon it you can still be an outstanding member of the Church. Your just most
likely a single. Unless you Merry as a cover up. Point is in America you do not
Merry more then One Wife and you do not merry and have Sex with underage girls.
Segments of this Group have done this and this is what must be stopped.
I really only care about the victims, and the Victims being taken care of. That
said, I do not want Religious Freedom to Become a Victim. In America you have
Freedom of Religion and Freedom From Religion. No matter how you where born. No
one can make you be anything after age 18. No one can be allowed to break a
State or Federal Law and cover it as being part of their Culture or Religion.
More so if the Breaking of the Law involves another person. Such as Forced
Marriage, Marriage Underage, or Sex with underage people. Drinking, Smoking, or
what ever. You cannot perform FGM on someone, or hunt them down and kill them
because they merry outside the faith or embrace another faith. Because all of
that is against the Law in the USA. You can at 17 put someone in Outward Bound
Programs who is not following Church Standards. Your $30,000. However, the Verse
after Honor the Mother and Father, so their day may be long. Says. Parents do
not provoke your Children to Wrath. Just a thought.
Skanky religion.Skanky old men.Skanky way of life.May
God have mercy on their souls!
Quote: Larry King | 1:29 p.m. Apr. 17, 2008I watched Larry King he
was asking them, have you ever seen old man marry younger women? They were
evasive. Who cares about the fact that there was zero articulation in the
question. End Quotethe irony of this statement had me in
stitches. Has Mr. King ever had a wife his age?
Honestly, if they aren't forcing underaged teen girls into marriage, why all the
secrecy? I'm not so convinced that bigamy laws will stand up in court these
days. If the FLDS church could put an end to organized pedophilia, they wouldn't
have to hide like this.
Let us all wear black armbands to mourn the deaths of Due Process and Rule of
Law. Tearing 400 children away from their families on the basis of a
single dubious, anonymous -- and, I suspect, entirely fabricated -- phone call.
How does this happen in America? Most horrifying report from this
debacle: "The judge must decide whether it is in the children's best interest to
place them back into mainstream society." Oh, really. Next up: The
Amish. Let's get 'em, boys.
On thepetitionsite there is a petition titled free-the-innocent-flds, meaning
the children. The comments are well worth reading. Here is part of one: "The state of Texas "rescued" me 44 years ago. I ended up in an adoptive
home where I really WAS abused. Here's what foster care is like. You get no
answers; you are a THING. They give you new parents, and tell you to forget your
old ones. You're a new happy family. The state expects this to happen because it
says so. Utterly false. I know."
This question was asked before and I saw No Answer so I will ask it NOW. Where
are the boys? Out of over 410 children only 24 boys were found !!! This in
itself is very strange...
Religious brainwashing is only one type of mind control and certainly is not the
most prevalent. When one's sources of information are limited to public schools
and a controlled media the result is people who do not know what constitutional
rights are, what due process is, and have no historical perspective. With no
personal knowledge of people different from themselves, they simply project onto
others, the unexamined contents of their own minds. It isn't surprising that
the primary ingredient of such minds is sex.
we have some polygamist children at our local high school. They are very
respectful and intelligent teenagers. If they would stop with the underage
marriages then in my book they are good folks. They love their children and
raise them to be their best and respectful to adults and to each other.
Consenting adult can believe and live how they want. Just be smart and leave
the child marriages alone, god nor the government would not favor taking
advantage of innocent children.
It involves manipulation and control of some kind. There are many people taught
about religion in an environment of open learning and discussion. If
you extend the definition to all kinds of 'indoctrination', then science
teachers would also be included and I don't think most religion-bashers here
would want that. These same people have no idea of the penalties involved in
closed communities where brainwashing occurs. So many converts are
individuals taught initially outside any community or congregation that you
could not consider this a form a brainwashing. One litmus test for
believers and non-believers: are you afraid of other ideas??
Did any of you GET what "AN ANSWER" said?Texas sure has. And they did not
go in just becauseof "SARAH". Have you read other accounts on theprice women and children pay if they want to leavethe FLDS life and get
caught? Believe me, Texashas other information that has not come out
yet.Why do you think they want DNA? FUMERASE DEFICIENCY!Do you want
tax dollars to go to funding BIRTH DEFECTS caused by arranged marriages with
relatives?AZ. and Utah did it for YEARS and Texas officialswill not
turn a blind eye with their heads stuck inthe sand, thank God!Read,
read other articles and then you will GET ITand stop enabling the tragic
situation here!Constitutional rights do not include inflictingignorance of birth defects on innocent children!
I just saw Carolyn Jessop speak out on Nancy Grace.She related how her
ex-husband FLDS leader took herbaby son and spanked his bottom repeatedly
untilhe cried until he was exhausted. Then her helplessbaby was
placed under a water faucet where he wouldcry more. The process was
repeated, which he called"breaking them". This instilled so much fear into
the child that they would be afraid of their father. The mother, (Carolyn), was
young and pregnant with a second child, with severe morningsickness,
couldn't fight this man, and HER FEAR WASTHAT IF SHE FOUGHT HIM, HE WOULD
HURT HER CHILD MORE! Folks, these sweet women you may be seeingbeing
interviewed on CNN are not going to give thereal story because they live
in fear. They have lived in it so long they believe it is normal.The
person on Nancy Grace's panel was so grievedby Carolyn's story that she
cried on air! I cried,too!Not every "family" at this compound in El
Doradowill have a story like this, but as the psychologiston Nancy's
show put it, some mothers don't recognizewhat abuse is."RELIGIOUS
FREEDOM"?? PRAY THIS SICKNESS STOPS!
What the police agencies have done is far worse than anything "proven" to date
against the FLDS church in El Dorado. I'm not an LDS member and am part of a
mainstream Christian religion. The state has virtually made these terrified
children orphans, housing them in a dome, what horrible conditions they must
endure. Armed vehicles and drawn guns, snipers, you got to be kidding. Where
is our religious liberty here? We cannot protect our own rights to religious
freedom without protecting all other practices. Ask any judge, the state is
terrible at handling children removed from their parents. How long will this
legal fiasco continue?
It shouldn't be a crime to believe or teach your children isolationist
principles. Yet these people are basically being punished for teaching their
kids a different world view. I say this is modern day persecution.
These poor women are no higher in life than a bunch of brood mares.I don`t know
how people can refer to the women as "consenting adults" when they are held
captive by the very act of bearing all these children and then not being able to
leave with the children if they wanted to as the men would hold the children as
a means to control. What I think is sad is one doesn`t see a swing set on the
grass or any kind of toy anywhere on the wives little tours.Yet they say the
children play on the grass? Where are the teen age boys? There doesn`t seem to
be any in evidence....only females and small boys... very strange.It is very sad
that the husbands that these women must be so obedient to are hiding behind
their skirts and directing them from afar. Consenting adults??? I hardly think
i am in a town near the eldorado compound where some of the children have been
brought to. i have seen these children playing with government employees...the
small ones play with little bikes, push toys and balls....the big kids (approx
8-12) are playing catch and soccor, laughing and having fun....these kids were
not being reserved and withdrawn as noticed when they were with thier "parents".
on the compound where was the entertainment and childlike fun for thses
kids...i'm not talking new age....but something besides dirt and grass. i have
also been in the system and can say they could only benefit from it. if nothing
else is gained maybe they learned that they are individuals that can make
decisions for themselves. if these children are sent back i hope whoever has
these children takes these moments as an oppurtunity to show them that they have
personal rights beyond religion.
With regard to the speech patterns, the members of this faith have led a very
closed life. It is similar to the Amish, they also have a very distinctive
speech pattern. The men speak in the same pattern. I would just urge everyone
to wait until we get the exact truth of the allegations. The only crime (and I
do not mean to diminish it) alleged by the state is sexual assault of a child,
that is sexual liasons with young women under the age of 17. Who did it is
unknown. Where it occurred is unknown. In Texas, it is a defense if the person
having sex with a 15 year old and within 3 years of her age, and not related to
her so as to constitute incest.
I am relieved that the state of Texas finally did what no other state would.
They are finally stopping the cycle of abuse. The women of the FLDS compound
are emotionally abused and treated like dogs. The children are worse off - boys
who don't conform are sent away to live in poverty, girls are spiritually
married to old men & sexually abused, and children are told they cannot read
books or play with toys - they must work or listen to the crazy rants of Warren
Jeffs. This is obscene! How can we let this happen in America? These women
and children aren't able to make decisions - they are forced into sexual
slavery. K. Beverly, wait? WAIT FOR WHAT? For more women & children to be
abused? K. Beverly, I want to know if you had the choice to marry a man of your
own free will, at a legal age. If you missed it, this is the most horrific
crime being tolerated in America today - us allowing young women to become FLDS
sexual slaves. Shame on you & all who think this is ok.