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Gay 'agenda' targeted — Speakers in American Fork warn of dangers

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  • Don't fool me
    April 1, 2008 12:54 a.m.

    Wait for the follow up story on the 9th where we are told 500 people show up at the Gay Pride meeting. Then watch these same reporters try to spin it in a manner adjunct to the gay agenda. No one knew about this meeting expect these 'media representatives'.

    I fully believe these individuals that held this meetings are slightly off center and I would never attend such a meeting myself. But for the media to try to push such stories on the populous because they feel it is their 'duty' is just wrong. Report the news, don't try to make it.

    What was that story about ABC News 'framing' a story on high rates of depression in Utah? A similar situation couldn't be happening here could it?

  • GK
    April 1, 2008 1:30 a.m.

    Be careful Utah that certain individuals, groups and media outlets will use any public situation, if allowed to go untackled, to promote, push and force Government laws in the favour of homosexuals and their practices. Do not be brain washed or misled by anyone claiming homosexuality to be okay. It should be avoided like paedophillia.

  • Lighten Up
    April 1, 2008 1:44 a.m.

    Gunter should have hit on the many other dangers out there. There are the communists that are hiding around every corner and the crazed caffiene addicts.

    Worry over gay people does not keep me up at night.

    What scares me?

    The high percentage of Utahns hopped up on drugs that are out driving on the roads threatening the safety of my family and anyone who tries to to cross the street.

    Parents that can't stay happily married. Intolerant, judgemental parents turning up the pressure on young people who have enough to deal with.

  • gayabroad
    April 1, 2008 3:28 a.m.

    Only in Utah and especially Utah county. Its stories like this, full of ignorance and intolerance, that make me ashamed to call myself a Utahn.

    And if you read both the D-news and the Trib look at the difference in reporting styles. Although I understand the News is owned by the church they could be a little more objective in how they covered the story.

  • Prosecutor
    April 1, 2008 3:33 a.m.

    Ms. Yana has a point -- public discussion should not degenerate into diseases spread by homosexual activity. Even if all diseases associated with the "gay" lifestyle were eliminated, homosexuality would not be converted into virtue.

    There is no reason for us to shrink from the truth. Pornography and homosexual acts are wrong for individuals, degrading for societies, and extremely harmful to their victims. We can and should spread this word to our children. We must politely, but firmly disagree with those peddling these perversions as worthy alternates to normalcy and decency.

    Among the truths our children need to know are perversion's epidemiological effects, but, medical fact is no substitute for moral truth.

  • Lee
    April 1, 2008 5:16 a.m.

    I agree with "Don't Foll Me"! Thank God for Fox News!

  • don't be fooled
    April 1, 2008 5:35 a.m.

    There are forces in society (Gay Pride, MTV, prime time network programing to name just a few) that relentlessly and aggressively push acceptance of homosexuality on children. Their efforts are very successful with an age group that seeks peer acceptance and often is looking for ways to show rebellion and independence from parental and societal standards.

    Public school officials are generally cowed and intimidated by these forces.

    Parents are losing the battle for their own children.

    I know nothing of this group but this issue is alive and real.

  • Gary
    April 1, 2008 5:44 a.m.

    Just another example of hate mongering, veiled in "protecting the public and children". It is very interesting that the video and information that this presentation used were admittedly out of date. I think it's also very interesting that in this same issue is a VERY RECENT story of a crackdown on child pornography in Utah. It reports that heterosexual men and women are guilty of trading child porn. It is a very old and tired argument that gay men and women "recruit" children. Nothing is further from the truth. How scandolous that the alleged "gay agenda" is promoting acceptance!!! Stephen Graham ought to hold meetings on the dangers of spreading misinformation that spawns fear generated violence on innocent and unsuspecting persons. I wonder how many true sexual deviants (HETEROsexual pedophiles and sexual assaulters) were in attendance at this gathering under the guise of "good Christian" people.

  • No Fooling
    April 1, 2008 6:13 a.m.

    I agree that next week's meeting with have many more people in attendance. I think that last night's meeting was more for show and to make the organizers feel as if they were doing something, anything to combat some of what they feel are society's ills. It's almost guaranteed that the LDS General Authorities will address pornography and homosexuality during General Conference this weekend, which for most of Utah County's residents will carry a lot more weight than what was presented last night.

  • russ
    April 1, 2008 6:32 a.m.

    well, 20 people fell for the act. In a way I guess that is good. Could have been a lynching party afterwards but ... and less would have shown that no one can read (the newspaper, etc.).

    20? Not bad. Did anyone ask about how many children are born that are gay? Did anyone ask? Did anyone ask if God made those children?

    Oh so many questions, and so little time.

  • SJ Bobkins
    April 1, 2008 6:49 a.m.

    Who could disagree with a group using "Families" or "Liberty" in their name?
    Must be a carefully, patiently, and cunningly, organized plan to make homosexuals the "them" in we vs them.
    Why is it that we have such a fear of the unknown? That heterosexuals have such a deadly fear that if they don't make enemies out of gay individuals they will be robbed of their Christian credentials or their own kids will fall to that horrible perversion.
    They never stopped to think that with all the hate and venom their kind thrusts upon a person, who has known themselves to be gay from birth, that that person would do everything they could to fit in and be like everyone else, considered "normal", But they can't and don't because they have no more control over their sexual orientation that I have over being left-handed or my eyes being blue. Being hateful and pretending homosexuals don't exist won't change the numbers. Neither will doing all you can to make their lives miserable. Try and put yourself in the place of a parent with student who is gay. If you can't do so, you may really be a Caveman.

  • one more time...
    April 1, 2008 7:36 a.m.

    ... but please pay attention this time.

    Gay from birth? creepy but also ludicrous. If there were a biological condition called "homosexuality" it would leave its victims unable to reproduce. It would be an evolutionary dead end; a genetic DEFECT (Mother Nature values reproduction very highly)
    Actually "homosexuals" change their behavior all the time; marry, have children, have homosexual sex; if it is a genetic trait it must be the "chameleon" orientation.
    Homosexuality is a behavior. Like all behavior it is learnable and controllable. Like all behaviors, people will have varying degrees of difficulty controlling it.
    It is certainly convenient to say "God made me this way" and deny any responsibility for ones actions; denial of responsibility is one of the alpha sicknesses in our society. But saying it over and over and over won't make it true.

    Please quit pushing homosexuality on children in public schools. It is bad for the children and bad for society.

  • ??
    April 1, 2008 7:41 a.m.

    The notion that God made homosexuals, therefore God is OK with homosexuality is nonsense. I believe that some people are born with homosexual tendencies. In fact, all of us are born with some weakness of the flesh to one degree or another.
    HOWEVER, we each have to resist and overcome our weaknesses. If the measure is "whatever I'm born with is what God intended for me to have, so it's OK to indulge in whatever urge I may have", then each of you can see what kind of urges people may choose to follow that are NOT OK. If we all just follow whatever impulse that we may have, we are indeed animals of the worst kind.

  • Alex B
    April 1, 2008 7:42 a.m.

    silly people, sexuality is a choice and is pavlovian.

  • Kevin
    April 1, 2008 7:53 a.m.

    Wow. When I consider how the DMN censors some of my blogs, and then read some of these comments, I'm shocked.

    Anyway, for the record, I am a 40 year old homosexual man, and I have never had a known, detectable sexually transmitted disease in my entire life. And believe me, I get tested.

    If you want to end the spread of disease, help encourage a standard of monogamy in the gay male population. Help bring about marriage equality.

    I single out the gay male population, because in case no one has noticed, lesbians rarely contract any STDs. It's a function of the mechanics of sex, not morality.

  • Good Grief
    April 1, 2008 8:06 a.m.

    Once again the small minded people in Utah County show that they have their heads buried in the sand. Have any of you ever met and actually spoke to gay people about their lives? Do you really think that millions of people choose to have these feelings and want to live tormented lives? Yes acting on the feelings of homosexuality is a sin, though being born with those feelings is not a sin. Perhaps some compassion and understanding on your part is in order. You should focus on the crystal meth problem that is killing your children, not that there might be a gay person living in your county.

  • ?? I agree
    April 1, 2008 8:03 a.m.

    Great comments, and Good going John. It's nice to see the silent majority with representation!

  • Matthew
    April 1, 2008 8:10 a.m.


    Read carefully people: Having the opinion that a certain behavior is wrong, immoral, or unhealthy has nothing to do with hate. Nor does advocating against that same behavior.

    Try and apply it to a different issue. I think it is unhealthy and wrong to not wash one's hands after using the toilet. Does that mean I'm a hate monger? Of course not.

  • Anonymous
    April 1, 2008 8:19 a.m.

    It sickens me to see all of the hate coming from people that say they are Christians. To me a good Christian is understanding and will see the good in others, and mind their own business. That is the problem with most people they try to force their beliefs on to others because they just know they are right and others are wrong.
    Keep your nose out and take care of your own and let me worry about mine!
    Maybe we should burn some books while we are at it.
    I am tired of all the closed minds in HAPPY VALLEY!!!

  • Paul Gibbs
    April 1, 2008 8:15 a.m.

    Where did I hear this speech before?

    Oh,yeah. Ralph Fiennes gave it in "Schindler's List". When you cross the line into this kind of hatred, you profane all that is Holy by claiming you are doing God's will.

  • Phantom Panther
    April 1, 2008 8:23 a.m.

    According to the Bible, the practice of homosexuality is an abomination before God. In Romans, St. Paul strongly condemns the practice and those who encourage the practice. The "anything goes" when it comes to sex crowd will one day answer to God. Nihilism and rebellion against Christian principles has been going on for several hundred years now. Society will crumble as the family disintegrates. "Tolerance" and "acceptance" will not make right wrong and wrong right. In addition, those who seem to be the most intolerant and angry over this issue are those pushing the "gay agenda." They are often furious the "religious right" can't see the "truth."

  • Grandmother
    April 1, 2008 8:16 a.m.

    What is God's opinion? Read your Bible. The cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.

  • KM
    April 1, 2008 8:28 a.m.

    I thought I smelled bigotry and hatred on family night!

  • Anonymous
    April 1, 2008 8:26 a.m.

    Just what is the "gay agenda"? So many on this message board (not a blog) seem to know everything about the gay agenda but my gay brother doesnt know anything about it. Are those mean gays keeping my brother out of the loop?
    Graham is right, as the bigoted, hateful older generation dies off, gays will become accepted. Just like those who wouldnt let blacks and whites marry have died off, as mankind moves forward, someday gay marriage will become no big thing. I for one hope that it happens sooner rather than later.

  • So Sad
    April 1, 2008 8:30 a.m.

    No matter how things are presented.
    No matter who presents them.
    There are always those who will throw a temper-tantrum as to the supposed "Hate or Fear" that is being spread/taught.
    People know what is right & what is wrong.
    To "Scare" people into doing what is "Right" is just as wrong as telling them there is no consequence for their choices.

    AIMHO

  • Ernest T. Bass
    April 1, 2008 8:37 a.m.

    What exactly is 'The Gay Agenda'?
    Having the same rights as everyone else?

  • Instereo
    April 1, 2008 8:31 a.m.

    Hate and Fear and then justifying it in the name of God. As if anyone writing in this forum knows the mind of God or what his creations are. All of this sounds like how Blacks were treated in the South (and in some places in the North) and how it was justified in God's eyes. The Genetic arguement sounds like how the Jews were portrayed by Hitler.

    Just from my reading of the scriptures, I think Christ would urge love a lot more then he would the hate and fear that has been shown on this topic.

  • John L.
    April 1, 2008 8:38 a.m.

    "Over 20 people attended the meeting." Wow! What is the population of the ever-conservative Utah County? Sounds like the organizers of the meeting got the attendance they deserved. They can't claim that nobody knew about the meeting. They got free advertising in yesterday's DMN. I was going to note that keynote speaker, Mr. Graham has probably never met a gay person. However, I bet he has met plenty and doesn't even know it. There is no gay agenda. Unless simply wanting to be accepted is an agenda. As to the radical gays, how about the radical skinheads or the radical Black Panthers? Radicals never represent anybody except other radicals.

  • Your Right
    April 1, 2008 8:37 a.m.

    This is Rosa Parks and Dr. King all over again. The new black agenda is the Gay Agenda, it is going to destroy our children. Pretty soon, our daughters are going to be marring colored boys and society will think that it's all right because they were indoctrinated with acceptance and tolerance!!

    We need to put a stop to this!

  • RE: One more time???
    April 1, 2008 8:38 a.m.

    Wow, the good old science argument.

    In fact scientists have recently shown that a population of NON reproducing people mixed in with the straight population is very effective in times of war, and need, when people and parents are dying in order to replace those parents and make up for lost productivity.

    Think about it - you are a Mongol, your son is a warrior and your youngest son is gay. Both you and your son die - who is to protect your children and wives? Oh wait, now you're happy to have had a gay child. It's the same in dogs, cats and other animals. While being gay is probably not 100% genetic its benefits and how it strengthens a community have been shown by science.

    Life isn't as simple as you think it is.

    Also, I'm straight and despite many efforts at gay seduction, have never given in - proving the "recruitment" is baloney. People who are "recruited" were homosexual all along and it's good they are out so they don't become forced to start regular families that will sooner or later fall apart. No one can live a lie, you should learn that one More time.

  • James
    April 1, 2008 8:44 a.m.

    97% of the world's population practices heterosexuality, with total population well over 6.2 billion. I don't think any perceived homosexual agenda is going to destroy the world. Our prisons are overflowing with straight men raised in Christian homes with both a father and mother. The world would be a better place if we all just treated each other with respect and dignity. My neighbor choosing to live a gay lifestyle has nothing to do with my personal spirituality.

  • Dear "One more time..."
    April 1, 2008 8:45 a.m.

    Obviously you aren't gay...have you ever asked a gay man if he "made himself gay?" I have yet to meet a single gay person who "made" himself gay. Same gender attraction isn't a choice...what you do even though you have that attraction is a choice, however.

  • Skeptic
    April 1, 2008 8:52 a.m.

    If we find a gene that codes for pedophilia does that mean we have to tolerate and accept it? What about people who get an insane adrenaline rush from killing? They all make the same argument: that they were born that way. Put my name on the list in favor of self-control at all costs.

  • Kevin
    April 1, 2008 8:57 a.m.

    Matthew: If I compared your intimate relationships to unwashed hands after using a toilet, how would you feel?

  • sadly
    April 1, 2008 8:58 a.m.

    The suicidal behavior is a direct function of the intolerance.

  • My voice
    April 1, 2008 9:04 a.m.

    Same gender attraction and it's affects future generations is worth consideration. The impact is far reaching as it relates "A Traditional Family" or "Traditional Family Values."
    Children witness behavior every day in public Schools which is contrary to what they have been taught. Concerned parents, speak with your children and let them know the real consequences that follow this behavior. It is not difficult for our children to see it if you talk to them. Talk to them.

  • James
    April 1, 2008 9:00 a.m.

    Please, please, please don't quote the Bible as justification for persecuting gays. Jesus never said anything about gays. In fact, the only group Jesus got really mad at was hypocrites. Don't worry about my salvation...worry about yours.

  • Town Heathan
    April 1, 2008 9:01 a.m.

    Homophobia is another example of Christian Hate. All wrapped up in the hyprocacy that hating in the name of God makes it right. Your church leaders preach to you that it is OK to attack anyone who doesn't believe as you do. Weither that is social, religious, gender....it's all the same...

    News Flash....hate is hate.

  • Bert
    April 1, 2008 9:01 a.m.

    Wow, listen to all the hate.

    It kind of makes you wonder why wome of us don't accept that hate-the-sin-not-the-sinner rhetoric.

    Next time some of you feel that you are the target of those anti's or feel some persecution because of your beliefs, think about the attitude found in this article and the responses to it.

    When your leaders talk about the great divide that exists in this community think about how you may be contributing to it.

  • Horse, barn door
    April 1, 2008 9:02 a.m.

    I love how Utah is supposedly full of parents concerned about the negative influences of Publik Skools on their children, but then the majority of these same concerned parents votes down even the most modest attempts to reform those supposedly evil Publik Skools.

    If Utahns don't think the school system supports their values, why do they continue to support pouring ever-increasing amounts of money down the rat hole of public education?

  • Town Heathan
    April 1, 2008 9:08 a.m.

    To: Phantom Panther

    This is the same God in your book that allowed his Prophets to have concubines....

    If it works for you...it's OK. If it doesn't work for you....it's an ABOMINATION!!!

    Funny how they look the same in the mirror...

  • Utah Resident
    April 1, 2008 9:15 a.m.

    I say let the far-right loons shout it loud and hard. People around the nation expect this--it IS Utah Valley, after all (and there's nothing "Happy" about it--believe me--I've been there.)

  • Sneaky Jimmy
    April 1, 2008 9:16 a.m.

    Is it that hard to worship a God that loves all his children?

  • Dave
    April 1, 2008 9:33 a.m.

    This is all an April Fools joke - RIGHT!

  • Informed
    April 1, 2008 9:27 a.m.

    You can bet that Graham and his supporters are much more informed than you think they are and know plenty of "gay" people. His foundation is not against homosexual people, but against the silencing of those who feel it can be changed if individuals want that. The media pushes acceptance of homosexuality enough to create every "tolerant" child you could possibly desire. We do not need schools and the government to get in on the action too. Graham's foundation is not trying to stop the Pride meetings or any other gay acceptance meeting, which we all have admitted will have much more attendance. Is there any reason why they should be so afraid of such a small number of parents getting together to become informed and protect their children against something that is against their religion? Why should parents lose their rights to teach what they believe? Since when is religious belief less important than belief in sexual orientation? This foundation is not trying to hinder the rights of those living the gay lifestyle, but inform children about the very real and dangerous other side of this lifestyle.

  • more sadly yet
    April 1, 2008 9:28 a.m.

    Love me or I will kill myself.
    What's it going to be?
    It's all in YOUR hands.

    I'm waiting.

  • if you disagree with me
    April 1, 2008 9:35 a.m.

    then you must hate me, and if I am the victim of hate then I must be right. Isn't that how it works?

  • Jason
    April 1, 2008 9:36 a.m.

    It is refreshing that there are still people with backbones, who will stand up for what is right and has always been right, without worrying about what babylon thinks.

  • Professa
    April 1, 2008 9:35 a.m.

    According to "L." at McSweeney's, this is the secret gay agenda:

    7:45 a.m. Alarm rings
    8:00 a.m.-8:10 a.m. Take shower
    8:15 a.m.-8:30 a.m. Dress and put items into briefcase
    8:35 a.m. Leave house
    8:45 a.m. Starbucks
    9:00 a.m. Arrive at job
    12:00 p.m. Lunch with a co-worker. Perhaps Chili's?
    12:45 p.m. Return to job
    1:30 p.m.-2:30 p.m. Meeting
    5:00 p.m. Leave work
    5:30 p.m.-6:30 p.m. Work out in gym
    7:00 p.m. Return home
    7:20 p.m. Prepare and eat dinner
    8:00 p.m. Watch Law & Order on TNT
    11:00 p.m. Go to sleep

    Dangerous indeed.

  • Scary
    April 1, 2008 9:35 a.m.

    I am straight. But like all of you (even if you arent aware of it), I have had many friends and acquaintances, who I later learned were gay. I can honestly say that no one has ever tried to push their homosexual agenda on me or convert me. I was never privy to intimate details of personal relationships, nor would I expect to be. My conclusion? My children are in danger from pedophiles, not homosexuals. Grahams statements are made out of fear. What I find really frightening is the Them Versus Us mentality that is so pervasive in our country. It feeds racism, sexism, violence, hate and bigotry. Our country was not founded on divisiveness.

  • Keep homosexuality out of school
    April 1, 2008 9:36 a.m.

    The thing that bothers me the most is that our Godless government is not only smothering religion, but they are peddling the homosexual agenda through their schools.

  • Lillith
    April 1, 2008 9:44 a.m.

    I was raised around many open gays and lesbians. They never brought an agenda (with bullet points) to any gathering. They never tried to recruit me to homosexuality. In all my years, I have never once been offered a toaster for the chance to join the "gay lifestyle." I am at a loss when I hear statements like this.

  • What a bigot
    April 1, 2008 9:39 a.m.

    This clown is carrying on about the "Gay Agenda". In years past, it would have been the "Jewish Agenda" or the "Irish Agenda" or the "Mormon Agenda". A bigot is a bigot is a bigot.

  • Divorce Rate, etc.
    April 1, 2008 9:46 a.m.

    I don't have exact numbers but heterosexuals get divorced at what - around a 50% rate for first marriages and above 60% for the second. Teen pregnancies, infidelity, porn, pedophilia, sexual assaults, STDs rampant among heterosexuals, severe drug and prescription abuse in Utah, etc etc. And these yahoos spend all their time and energy worrying about spreading fear and disinformation regarding an inborn human trait.

    Even a plea in general conference for more love, acceptance and a stop to the public criticism of homosexuals would not slow down their hate and fear train. They beat to their own fundamentalist agenda and no one can tell them otherwise. Some people see conspiracies and Satan around every corner and yet somehow they can look at themselves in the mirror and believe they are furthering God's work. There is a church that tends to picket at soldier funerals and even our late Prophet's funeral that would probably be a bit more in line with their attitudes.

  • Patsy
    April 1, 2008 9:42 a.m.

    Those that believe one can change their sexual orientation - would you want your daughter to marry one of these changed men?

    When she starts wondering what's wrong with her, why she feels so unattractive, what are you going to tell her? "Suck it up honey, you're helping to change him."

  • Hatuletoh
    April 1, 2008 9:44 a.m.

    Oh my goodness . . . Some of you people actually think that the sexuality of your children can be altered by some TV's shows and the yet-to-be-defined "gay agenda"? Hilarious! I envy what must be your very comfortable lives if GAYS are your most pressing concern. Are your kids really so impressionable? Frankly, I'm a lot more concerned about paying for college in 15 years.

    On a related topic, I didn't see Mr. Graham's or Mr. Gunter's creditials noted in the article. Are they professors of some sort? Scientists, social scientists, politicians, academics, relgious leaders, community leaders, golf pro's, dry-wallers, latent homosexuals--or what? What qualified them to speak on this subject? Did anyone at this newspaper think to ask?

  • Samwise801
    April 1, 2008 9:53 a.m.

    So, refresh my memory - tell me again what is so wrong with acceptance? What is so wrong with accepting those among us who are different?

    If you really think there is a "gay agenda" to push homosexual acceptance on society, look no further than groups like SoL - you can't blame gay people for fighting back against this kind of intolerance. Of course they're going to "push an agenda," if that's what you want to call it, because the agendas of groups like these are working every day to push homosexuals into a shamed, degraded, looked-down-upon second class of society.

    If there was a group out there trying to push you into that dark corner, wouldn't you fight back too?

    I can only hope these kinds of groups stay on the fringe of society. Tolerance is a virtue! And even more so when you disagree.

    Keep your own morality in your own home. When in public, spend your valuable time and energy on more pressing matters - not on blindly and vehemently hating those who are different than you.

  • The Forgotten Middle
    April 1, 2008 9:51 a.m.

    This is madness - people use the word "agenda" to describe beliefs that don't match their own. I am so sick of the extremes in today's society. This country (maybe not this County) is a country of reasonable, compassionatem thoughtful people and yet the only voices we tend to hear are those screaming either from the far left or right. I guess when you are in the minority you learn to yell in order to get some attention. It's a shame though that it tends to block out or minimize the majority who don't buy the extremes of either side. You see the same thing in the creationism versus evolution debate. It only involves finger pointing from both ends and speaks over the majority who (regardless of which way they lean) prefer a civilized conversation that respects a variety of thoughts and opinions.

  • Love the sinner hate the sin
    April 1, 2008 10:00 a.m.

    I think that is what the savior would say about this.
    Homosexuals are not the enemy. They are loved by our Father in Heaven as much as the rest of us.
    It is the sin of Homosexuality that God hates. It is the acceptance of this sin in our society that is alarming. It is that bad is called good and good is called bad.

  • Agenda?
    April 1, 2008 10:00 a.m.

    It's really quite laughable that people still claim that there is no "gay agenda". If there is no "gay agenda" why are there gay advocacy groups. Tell me one advocacy group that doesn't have an "agenda". Let's see... The NRA, the NEA, ADAPT, BACA, MADD, the Sierra Club, the ACLU, the NAACP, the Humane Society, Amnesty International, the American Cancer Society, all have "agendas". There really is nothing wrong with an advocacy group having an "agenda" - that's the point of the advocacy group.

    What is suspicious is having an advocacy group (and the group that is being advocated for) claim they don't have an agenda. What are you trying to hide?

  • Not a Moral Issue
    April 1, 2008 10:04 a.m.

    Homosexuality is not a moral issue. The speakers are spreading ignorance and lies.

    My brother is 44 years and gay. He finally told me about it, after years of deep depression, denial and refusal to recognize his sexuality as nothing he can change. His homosexuality has absolutely nothing to do with his ability to be morally sound person.

  • Anonymous
    April 1, 2008 10:21 a.m.

    Yep, all those "gays" are just experimenting and choose to live a lifestyle where they are harrassed, persecuted, beaten, hated and vilified. Yep, it's just a choice and they can go back to being "normal" but they would rather be hated then conform. Right..... How silly are all of you who think it is a choice? Yes, I will admit there are a very few that "swing both ways", those who do experiment just to push their parent buttons or to rebel against the social norm, but the MAJORITY of gays and lesbians are BORN THIS WAY. They do not learn it.. if they do learn it, then let me ask this, who did they learn it from? They were born into hetrosexual families so maybe the parents did soemthing wrong?? HMMM. This is not a choice. Just like all you straights can not "choose" to be gay, those who are gay can not "choose" to be straight. It just goes against their make up. There is nothing wrong or predatory about them. There is no recruiting agenda. They just want to live a normal life, like everyone else!!!

  • Kevin
    April 1, 2008 10:30 a.m.

    I am in support of activities and speeches that appropriately condemn sexual relations outside of marriage and that seek to prevent homosexual unions and marriages from being and/or becoming lawful.

  • Mary
    April 1, 2008 10:50 a.m.

    How embarrassing that my hometown was the location for this hate mongering. A library is supposed to be a place for increasing knowledge not ignorance and spite.

  • Nedd
    April 1, 2008 11:02 a.m.

    I'm from Indiana but as a friend of Steve's, I'm hard pressed to see how this is classified as hate. How can opposing a lifestyle harmful to many of its practitioners and leading many to early graves be hateful? It's not loving to tell such folks they have to be homosexual the same way it's not loving to shoot drugs.

    The Centers for Disease Control just came out with a new report how HIV cases rose 48% from 2005 to 2006 and the CDC website (yeah, that bastion of conservatism) maintains, despite its personal wishes to the contrary, that it is MSM (men having sex with men) as the number one factor for the rise in AIDS and HIV. I didn't make it up. It's on their website. Google it for yourself.

    I reject going into people's bedrooms to see what they do and believe in live and let live but destructive behaviors like these (facts do not lie) should not be promoted in schools or as matters of public policy.

    Many people have left this unnatural and risky lifestyle so it can be done. There's help for those trapped. Do not reject those who want help to do so.

  • Sad for Utah
    April 1, 2008 11:05 a.m.

    Whether homosexuality is a choice is irrelevant to me.

    What saddens me is the choice that certain Utahns have made to be intolerant bigots.

  • you're right Patsy
    April 1, 2008 11:26 a.m.

    As a parent I would have huge concerns about my daughter marrying a man who had dabbled with homosexuality.

    Which is why it is so devastating when young teenagers get duped into "outing" themselves. That is a sticky trap to get out of, and can have lifelong consequences.

    Which is why society needs to protect youth from aggressive homosexual advocacy groups, especially in public school.

  • Anonymous
    April 1, 2008 11:22 a.m.

    Why is it that everyone calls us closed-minded? Aren't the so-called open-minded people being closed-minded for not letting someone think differently from what you think? Just because I believe homosexuality is a sin doesn't mean I'm closed-minded, it just means we think differently. If you ask me, you're closed-minded for not letting me believe what I want.

  • anon
    April 1, 2008 11:29 a.m.

    First, why do Gays insist on defining themselves by who they sleep with? I define myself by what I do and don't do.
    Second, feel free to deny the "agenda" but it is real. That is why schoolbooks in California are no longer allowed to contain the words "family", "mother" or "father". Look it up and learn. It's the tip of the iceburg.
    Third, gay people have the same rights that I have. When they speak of equal rights they actually mean "additional or special rights".
    fourth, people are not born gay. To say they were born that way discounts nature and God. Explain the OH guy arrested for having sex with his picnic table? Or the guy caught doing it to a swimming pool in FLa? Or the guy killed in WA by the horse he was "with"? They were born with the desire to "make it" with tables, pools, and animals? If you want to be gay go ahead but don't ask us to say that it is acceptable behavior. And don't call us "haters" because we refuse to do so.

  • Screen Age
    April 1, 2008 11:35 a.m.

    Forget about homosexuality for a moment and look at this for what it is.

    An outside special interest group intimidated a parent organization and/or a school principal to the point of dictating what they can and cannot do in a meeting.

    That doesnt alarm you?!

    This was not a school event, this is a private organization. Did this group attend because they have kids at that school? Or did they attend in a deliberate effort to control thinking?

    I dont care what their agenda is -- they could be out to place homeless kittens with loving families for all I care -- the truth is they are frequently guilty of intimidating, shaming and bullying those who believe differently than they do. And then have the audacity of accusing organized religions of this behavior!

    Their practices are at best manipulative, and at worst insidious social engineering.

    And notice how you never hear about this group donating huge amounts of money, supplies or volunteers to help disaster victims.

    Thats because all their resources go towards one thing: influencing us.

    Hmm.

    Do they want to make the world a better place, or control how it thinks? Its all about power.

  • Say What
    April 1, 2008 11:38 a.m.

    The opinions of a fringe speaker, who wasn't allowed to speak at the PTSA meeting and ended up with barely any audience are evidence of the small mindedness of Utah County?

    There are anti-gay groups in San Francisco who attract much larger gatherings. Does that make San Franciscans small minded?

    Being small minded is not allowing someone else their opinion, and is usually what you become whenever you attempt to label another person or group as small minded.

  • RR
    April 1, 2008 11:32 a.m.

    First, I have to say, GO this guy for standing up for what is wrong, when the whole world is being whitewashed into thinking it's totally good and right!

    I moved from Utah two years ago, and just like to come here to read about college sports, but reading things like this happening in Utah is astounding. It's not nearly this bad where I live, and I live in a liberal hub. There are definitely forces at work there trying to reverse what most of society there believes. You rarely see things like this in the part of the US where I live. It's a scary world there where bad is now considered good.

  • Anonymous
    April 1, 2008 11:36 a.m.

    I forgot was it Adam and Eve or Adam and Steve?

  • Screen Age
    April 1, 2008 11:44 a.m.

    "If you disagree with me then you must hate me, and if I am the victim of hate, then I must be in the right. Isn't that how it works?"

    The problem with that statement is that it is so brilliant, it went over the heads of most the people involved in THIS discussion!

    WELL SAID, who ever you are!

  • ?
    April 1, 2008 11:39 a.m.

    if god is going to judge all these "horrible sinners" then why do we have to do it to? i have a lot on my plate right now and i dont think i can fit in hating another group of people on top of everything else

  • Anonymous
    April 1, 2008 11:41 a.m.

    So In my life I ve learned a few things. You can't control others. You can't change minds. You can't change hearts. Only Heavenly Father can. Even If we don t agree with homosexuals, doesn t mean we need to hate them. Our job is to Love and accept them. Not their actions, cause in the end God is the judge and each person has their own free will. God knows our hearts. We can teach our children what we want, and give our testimony of what is true. It is still others choice to listen and except it. If our families or friends choose that road we can talk till we are blue in the face. In order to stop a problem we need to communitcate in a way that isn t unkind but in a way that doesn t point fingers. The truth is no one knows everything, and in the end Heavenly father will make the judgement.

  • Personally
    April 1, 2008 11:43 a.m.

    I for one am sick of the Mormon Agenda.
    Isn't it a bit ironic that the LDS church is guilty of the same thing it accuses gays of? i.e. Trying to recruit people to conform to their way of thinking and their life styles to fit their beliefs and doing so in schools? What about forcing people to live by a set of beliefs that many can find opposition to from the bible? Maybe if the Homosexual community had tax exempt status people would be more accepting. Hypocrisy at it's finest.

    Now, who's going to be the first to say either "But that's different..." or the dead horse phrase of "If you don't like it then move.."

  • Prosecutor
    April 1, 2008 11:51 a.m.

    Ever notice how those decrying hate and bigotry do so in the most hateful and bigoted language?

  • Anonymous
    April 1, 2008 11:51 a.m.

    This story illustrates that hate and intolerance are Utah family values.

  • Re: Phantom Panther
    April 1, 2008 11:52 a.m.

    Well said!

    I have friends and relatives who live a homosexual lifestyle. I have no problem being tolerant of those who choose to live a homosexual lifestyle.

    But, I do object to homosexuals and their apologists pushing an agenda to force everyone to accept their lifestyle as being normal and moral.

  • Ed
    April 1, 2008 12:00 p.m.

    I am just blown away that people such as Mr. Gunter are even given a forum in the first place. I feel bad that he believes that there is a "gay agenda". All that ANY of us wants is to be accepted as decent people, regardless of race, creed or sexual orientation. I have many "gay" friends and not ONCE have any of them tried to be inappropriate in any way. Most live in fear that they will be "outed"....now is THAT any way to live one's life, in fear???? That's what people of Mr. Gunter's crowd want.....is to put the fear into all those who are "different". Welcome once again to the politics of fear. Sad.

  • Accept the sinner not the sin
    April 1, 2008 12:00 p.m.

    To Divorce rate, etc.:

    Two wrongs don't make a right. Listing off wrongs does not somehow justify a different form of wrongdoing. Having sex with the same sex is unnatural & wrong. Saying otherwise is misinformation & harmful to everyone including self-proclaimed gays.

    To anyone else it concerns:

    How can you say being gay is inborn? That is an opinion far from being proven as fact. By my definition, gay pertains to those who engage in sexual acts with the same sex, & until then you aren't gay. Therefore it's impossible to be gay at birth, speaking in my terms.

    We were born male or female with natural desires that develop as our bodies develop the sexual ability to procreate (In case you failed sex-ed, this requires a male and a female). Desires outside the purpose of the bodies natural sexual development may sometimes develop, but they are perversions of thought and lead to unnatural behaviors. In fact, all wrongdoing was first preceded by an inappropriate thought.

    Some say we are born with evil inclinations, but any baby is evidence that this is false. How is accepting bad thoughts (Unproven inclinations) appropriate? It perpetuates into sorrowful actions. Some favor!

  • nurture vs nature, and hate
    April 1, 2008 12:02 p.m.

    If being gay is genetic, why aren't both identical twins gay? I am familiar with several sets where one is and one isn't. How can that be?

    And, when can we get past being labeled as haters just for disagreeing. This is the classic lib argument and, frankly, it is old and tired. Calling me names because I disagree with you is a poor rebuttal and the tool of the ignorant.

  • P in Mexifornia
    April 1, 2008 12:05 p.m.

    Homosexuals and liberals always try to demonize and label those who speak out against homosexuality as "hateful, close-minded, descriminatory" because they're unable to debate the issue- so they resort to name calling. It's their only defense as they know that conservative values are right and their lifestyle is wrong and harmful to society. This issue needs to be addressed. The history of any culture which embraces homosexuality is a history of social decay and self-destruction. FACT. Any society which perverts itself in this manner and does not protect and uphold the basic relationship for procreation/buidling block for the continuing of society and the species will eventually self-destruct. Very dangerous times we live in. The homosexuals in California are endoctrinating the children because they can't have their own children. We need more politicians with character and moral courage to stand up against homosexuality.

  • Utah County Parent
    April 1, 2008 12:13 p.m.

    To all of you who say homosexuals don't recruit, I say you are wrong. My teenage son was groomed by an older boy, who had come out of the closet to his peers as a homosexual. This same young man also groomed other young boys, all two to three years younger than himself. When they told us the things this older boy did and said to get them interested, it was clear to me that it was a textbook example of a sexual predator grooming his victims. Don't ever try to tell me that homosexuals don't recruit! Perhaps many don't, but many do. As far as whether homosexuality is wrong or right, you need not look any further than the Proclomation on the Family. These are truly inspired words. This doesn't mean we are to hate anybody. In fact, just the opposite. Hate the sin, not the sinner.

  • Public Schools?
    April 1, 2008 12:11 p.m.

    As a Utah public school teacher with over 15 years of experience, I must have my head buried in the sand. I have NEVER seen or heard of the "homosexual agenda" being promoted in my school. That subject has always been considered taboo. If a student ever brings the subject up in my class (it happens occasionally) I have such a panic attack that I worry all night about having "handled" it in the "right" way. Just for the record--my response is always the same--"please talk with your parents about it" and then we immediately go on with the required state curriculum.

  • Think!!
    April 1, 2008 12:13 p.m.

    This month my reading has involved "The Book of Mormon," "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," some conference talks I have enjoyed in prepartion for General Conference, and "Guns, Germs and Steal."

    My point? Open your mind and gather as much diverse information and opinions and possible. It feels good to make decisions based on a whole spectrum of ideas, opinions and information. It can be debilitating to feel like all that you think and do must be confined within a pre-determined, developed- since-birth, religious/cultural frame.

  • Gordon
    April 1, 2008 12:14 p.m.

    After reading though this litany of snide, pro-homosexual comments, I can see the concern of the moral community: the homosexual agenda is succeeding.

    One more evidence of the decline of a once great nation as it follows the downward spiral of former great nations. America needs to wake and shape up.

  • Mormon-Guy
    April 1, 2008 12:20 p.m.

    My Great Great Grandfather a good Mormon Practiced Plural Marriage in this State,
    at a time when Mormons were being raided and killed since Nauvoo Illinois. Whats wrong with this picture Mormons about gay men and women? Why cannot you accept them why subject your children to Electric Shock Therapy Like I went through at BYU at 19 in the early 80s, their little known SECRET LDS Cure homosexual Program!

    Its a very SAD day here in Utah, even among Mormons where people equate homosexuality with Pedophiles, when most Pedophiles are Heterosexual!

  • Federal Farmer
    April 1, 2008 12:26 p.m.

    Sorry, but I wouldn't call this "hate mongering," nor would I say that this would only happen in Utah. As much as I don't agree with some of the things that were said by the group, I don't oppose their RIGHT to say it. While we have yet to define what "rights" people have to marry each other, there does exist a right to the freedom of speech. This group shouldn't be silenced for pertaining to an unpopular belief that homosexuality is wrong. Again, I may disagree with much of what they say, but they should have every right to formulate and express this opinion.

    Secondly, I think that you cannot lump all civil rights movements together; by doing so, you cannot adequately confront each issue entirely. Sorry, but I roll my eyes a little when I read things like "hate mongering," and likening this situation to "racism, sexism, violence, hate and bigotry." This little meeting, no matter how controversial, is far from these labels. It is alarming to me to see a society that throws such words around carelessly. "Our country was not founded on divisiveness." The Founding Era was quite divisive, actually.

  • Homosexuality ...
    April 1, 2008 12:21 p.m.

    ... is no more about sex than heterosexuality is about sex.

    Graham's group focuses rabidly on sex, sex, sex. Sex acts. Naked bodies. Diseases. They think about sex more than the people out having sex. I see nothing on Graham's "family" site about curbing the spread of emotional bonding between men and men or women and women. Just sex. Sex, sex. SEX!

    Some people bond emotionally with same-sex people in a way that's impossible for them to do with opposite-sex people. Some of these same people engage in physical intimacy. Some do not.

    Mr. Graham's web site features a variety of lies about disease and homosexuality.

    The site claims if two people have sex, they will catch HIV if the two people are gay but not if they are straight.

    His site says LDS Church members who feel attracted to people of the opposite sex but never act on it must also be punished because they are perverse and wrong in the Lord's eyes. (Last time I checked, temptation was not a sin according to LDS doctrine.)

    My beliefs have no place for people who lie, manipulate, and militantly labor to create fear and misunderstanding in the name of Christ.

  • To: Agenda? 10:00 a.m.
    April 1, 2008 12:29 p.m.

    You hit it on the head with your own words. "Advocacy group."

    Do you belong to an advocacy group? If you are straight, does Planned Parenthood represent your agenda since they deal primarily with issues related to procreation, pregnancy, and prophylactics? If you are gay, does the LDS Same-Gender Family Home Evening Group that meets monthly in Alpine represent your views with what they advocate?

    You're right. The only agendas are those of individuals or groups, and no group or person can sweepingly define an entire class of people or represent the desires of each.

    Get over it with the agenda thing.

  • Joe
    April 1, 2008 12:33 p.m.

    I wonder if Graham got a standing ovation. Geez I'm glad I don't live in Utah county.

  • TO: P in Mexifornia
    April 1, 2008 12:38 p.m.

    You say: "The homosexuals in California are endoctrinating the children because they can't have their own children."

    I'm wondering if by this you are implying that if same-sex couples were to have children, they would all be gay. But since they can't, they're trying to influence the children of others to become gay.

    In case you hadn't noticed, every single gay person I know came from straight parents. Typical, everyday, mother-and-father families in Utah just keep on creating more and more gay children. Hmmm.

  • Willard
    April 1, 2008 12:40 p.m.

    Our communities and our nation as a whole needs to come together on policy and program to address the gay problem it is a sickness that will do lasting damage and harm to our society if we don't get it solved and under control. The natural laws of nature do not support homosexual social intergration. We can not fight and win over nature; we will lose and all pay the price for defiant gay agendas.

  • Henry Drummond
    April 1, 2008 12:41 p.m.

    I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that groups such as the "Standard Of Liberty" do more to promote the "gay agenda" than anyone at the "Gay Pride Center" ever could. They are so unreasonable and non-factual that they are easy targets for those who promote Gay rights. Instead of "raising awareness" their heavy handed tactics and extremism only serve to create sympathy for Gays and help promote the very things they are trying to avoid.

    You guys need to get rid of people like Steve Graham and Chris Buttars and get someone who can make a logical case for their point of view.

  • RE:Utah County Parent
    April 1, 2008 12:47 p.m.

    That man WAS a pedophile. I hope that you and the other families involved took the proper action and had the man arrested, but there is a difference between being gay and being a pedophile. I am a gay man who has absolutely ZERO inclinations towards having ANY type of sexual contact with children of either sex. And as far as the Proclomation of the Family comment, I have no idea what your referring to.

  • To: P in Mexifornia
    April 1, 2008 12:45 p.m.

    The homosexuals in California are endoctrinating the children because they can't have their own children.


    Tell me you are not serious! Sorry, but I am a straight 6th generation Californian, left only to attend school here, and I have never heard of such paranoia. Most homosexuals arent pedophiles, are free to adopt children in some states; and surprisingly enough, their children usually do not become homosexual. It really isnt considered a learned behavior. Homosexuals would benefit little by indoctrinating your children. Homosexuality has been around for centuries. Consider yourself safeit has never wiped out heterosexuality or you wouldnt be here to make such bizarre statements.


  • to willard
    April 1, 2008 12:57 p.m.

    So what is your FINAL SOLUTION to the "gay problem"?

  • Sickness..
    April 1, 2008 1:05 p.m.

    There are a lot of people who keep referring to homosexuality as a sickness. Alrighty then, is it a viral infection? How do you catch it? Is it an air borne germ that you catch at a Cher concert? If is WERE a disease, why isn't there a pharaceutical company working on a vaccine? OR is it a disease that you catch by being recruited?
    None of you anti gay people seem to be on the same track. You seem to have more reasons for homosexuality than the gay community does, and yours only raise more questions than answers.

  • FYI
    April 1, 2008 1:03 p.m.

    Straight people like you have children like me....GAY! I like to think it's God's way of proving to you that you really don't have a clue how things work.


    LONG LIVE THE GAY AGENDA!!

  • Bugged Eyed
    April 1, 2008 1:09 p.m.

    I read these comments and it truly sickens me. I for one choose not to judge and feel that will be God and God job alone. I do however find it humorous that all the Bible thumpers constantly bring up the fact that being Gay is a sin. They also form these groups with the soul purpose of going out and spreading their inaccurate opinions. But I also believe the Bible says that Gluttony is a sin.... And how many fatty's do you see in the Chapel each Sunday.. Judge not lest ye be judged yourself. I for one choose to love those around me. I will teach my children the same, and will save the judgments for God.

  • boiseguy
    April 1, 2008 1:17 p.m.

    who do homosexuals have to prove themselves to anyone.. why do they have to prove they were born that way.. how people wish to live their lives is their own business.. if you dont' like it start your own country that is not free.. and you can pick and choose who is accepted and who isn't.
    ridiculous every one of you.. and what a waste of time to sit and get all worked up about what two adults are doing behind closed doors. You can't shelter your kids from the world their whole lives, and as far as I know gay's aren't out recruiting.
    Educate yourselves, perhaps utah needs to spend more money in their schools seeing as how they're dead last in the nation, its any wonder why everyone calls you utards!

  • RE:WILLARD
    April 1, 2008 1:20 p.m.

    Just so you know, when the AIDS epidemic first started, then President Regan ask for a study to see if it were possible to round up all the homosexuals and lock them away. Something along the same lines as the way Japanese citizens were treated. The problem was the cost and the way to actually make sure you had all the homosexuals rounded up. Is this what you had in mind??

  • sexual security
    April 1, 2008 1:14 p.m.

    As a straight male with a live-and-let-live life philosophy, although I am just as puzzled at a same-sex attraction as anyone else (not my choice) I really couldn't care less what other people choose to do with each other.

    I was raised with the notion that those who are secure with their sexual preference also couldn't care less about others.

    I have always thought it strange how some people freak out at homosexuals (or at least, pretend to) and start obsessing about the behavior.

    Methinks thou protest too much. Why?

  • Living in Utah County
    April 1, 2008 1:22 p.m.

    I live in Utah County, in fact I went to American Fork High School. I do not hate gay people. I have gay friends. I do not agree with what gay people do, but I don't hate them. Please stop all the hating of people who are LDS in Utah County.

  • magnus
    April 1, 2008 1:33 p.m.

    RE:Screen Age,

    Loved the comments, you're absolutely right about the methods of gay activists, but they are not unique in their methods or motives, the "Christian Right" is every bit the power monger that the Gay Lobby is.

    RE:Personally,

    Who ever said this was about the "Mormon Agenda"? The Mormon church was not mentioned in this article, nor was the meeting well attended. I can assure you that if this was part of a so called "Mormon Agenda", at a minnimum, the meeting would have been well attended and the refreshments would have been excellent.

    I agree with many posters here that it seems to be a sad reality that dissagreeing with someones way of life is often equated to hatred. Unfortunately the way we dissagree often sounds hateful.

    Having sexual relations with anyone but a consenting member of the opposite sex is wrong, it is wrong by nature, and for me it is wrong by belief. I'm a public advocate of this and I teach my it to my children, however, I also believe that every person on this earth is one of Gods children and they all should be treated with respect and dignity.

  • Thank Goodness
    April 1, 2008 1:28 p.m.

    I moved out of Utah County.

    I respect everyone's right to have their own point of view on the matter.

    However, I have to say that the venom, judgment, and hostility toward homosexuals on this message board is astounding. One can disagree amicably without resorting to attacks.

    I would have expected better from such a supposedly religious part of the country. Frankly, it makes you Utahans look simple, ignorant, and intolerant. Again, this is not for simply disagreeing; rather, the way you disagree and extremely ignorant views that inform that disagreement.

    But go ahead and pile on...

  • Gay Agenda Definition
    April 1, 2008 1:32 p.m.

    The way I understand it (as a straight person) is the "Gay Agenda" consists of wanting equal rights for gay people and to not be descriminated against. Equal rights and anti-bigotry is a pretty evil agenda. I can see why these people are warning parents against this agenda.

    To claim the "Gay Agenda" is anything more than gay people wanting equal rights is just a lie. A lie to justify bigotry towards a group of people who are different than the majority. That is quite disgusting to decent people.

    This group meeting with parents to warn them about gay people pushing for equal rights and to not be descriminated against sounds quite similar to KKK meetings discussing the same issues regarding blacks in the sixties. How is the first OK in Utah County, when the second would be evil to most decent people? Same issue, different group of people.

  • The homosexuals are winning
    April 1, 2008 1:43 p.m.

    If you believe that people are "gay" the homosexual activists have successfully indoctrinated you.

  • You Can't Fool Me
    April 1, 2008 1:39 p.m.

    Gays do recruit! As a high high school student many years ago I was very actively recruited by a group of gays in my school. It WAS there agenda to try to get as many involved as they could. The first time is the trick. If you can get a guy to participate once he loses all self-esteem and reduces himself to that level. When self-respect is gone it is easy to convince someone that they are different or "queer." The best explanation to save face because of a bad choice is to blame the problem on something that is uncontrollable saying that they were born that way and that is their lot in life. But, this group made no qualms about the fact that gay was their choice. They even questioned other gays when they made that claim. I have never known a gay man (I have known plenty) who had any significant level of self-confidence. And no, the lack of esteem was not the result of being gay, it was the cause. By the way: every single member of the group that tried to get me to conform to their lifestyle died of AIDS. All of them.

  • The world needs more love
    April 1, 2008 1:56 p.m.

    Well sadly people who think that a gay person chooses to be gay is obsured. Do strait people choose to be strait...??? I have found that there is no such thing as choosing one way or the other.

    When my family rejucted me as there child and started hating me i tried to kill myself because i lost those who i was brought up thinking that they loved me. Suicide is a reprecution of people and churches showing hate for those who are different.

    Also if you check the # of new STD's with all the states and cross check with the persons sexual orientation you will find more heterosexuals are getting STD's than Homosexuals.

    If we as a people were to actualy live the teachings of Jesus then we would show unconditional love to those around us.

    Untill that happens i will fight for Human rights to live life and love who ever you love as long as it is not harmful to that person.

    Pedofilia is mentaly harful to children and majority of pedofiles are heterosexual men that want to have power over children. The sad thing is that my family accept the pedofile brother for heterosexual reasons.

  • hiding something
    April 1, 2008 2:06 p.m.

    I am convinced that those conservative types who whine, scream and carry on about people they don't even know or are nowhere around them, (in this case I'm talking about gay people) have got to be hiding something, but aren't doing a very good job of it.
    100% straight people don't give a (bleep) what others do in the privacy of their homes or the lifestyle they choose.

  • Anonymous
    April 1, 2008 2:07 p.m.

    Even if enough people declare wrong to be right, it doesn't make it so.

    Declaring anyone who disagrees with you to be a hate-monger is equally wrong.

    If you believe it is wrong and have the guts to say so, that doesn't make you a hater.

    Some are more skillful at making their arguments... That doesn't make them more right or more wrong, but it does make them more persuasive... unless of course, you disagree with them, then I guess it makes them a hater

  • Teaching our Children Well
    April 1, 2008 2:05 p.m.

    God has given commandments for our happiness and well-being. We should trust Him. As for the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth, further understanding has been provided by modern prophets. We are not to have sexual relations with anyone who is not our husband or wife. Unfortunately, both gays and straights violate that commandment and indulge the desires of the "natural man". This leads to estrangement from God, spiritual death and unhappiness. God loves all people, and He wants us to be "one" with Him; to have true happiness and joy. This requires that we "put off the natural man" - regardless of sexual orientation. Unfortunately, most popular entertainment and the politically correct, tell us we will only be happy if allowed the freedom to indulge the drives of the natural man (or woman). But this doesn't lead to lasting happiness. Children should be taught that the true path to happiness is to trust God, and do our best to follow him and to deny ourselves of all ungodliness. In the current environment, this is not taught in the public schools, so we must ensure it is taught in our homes and churches and synagogues etc.

  • Re: Sickness..
    April 1, 2008 2:07 p.m.

    Just because someone considers an act -- adultery, prostitution, homosexuality, lying, stealing -- as immoral, doesn't necessarily make that someone anti-whoever is committing the act.

    There are many gay people who are wonderful people and do much good. Being gay and doing good are not mutually exclusive. Just as being straight and doing evil are not mutually exclusive.

    It is possible to hate the act without hating the person who is committing the act.

  • Oren
    April 1, 2008 2:11 p.m.

    Put Homosexuality on your resume, see how far it gets you.

    It's a choice and not a good one. It's not the norm even if those practicing it want it to be.

    Next time you're out in public, announce loudly, I'm a homosexual and see what it gets you.

  • RE: FOOL
    April 1, 2008 2:21 p.m.

    I am a gay man. Believe me when I tell you that I have a very healthy and significant self esteem. Any issues I may have had in the past had NOTHING to do with my sexual identity, it stemmed from the constant string of bigotry and animosity I have received from those who proclaim their virtues as a Christian.

  • Willie
    April 1, 2008 2:23 p.m.

    another fine example of;

    Family Values
    Mormon Values
    Conservative Values
    Republican Values
    Utah Values

    Please stay away from me, I don't want to catch the sort of "social" diseases you are trying to spread.

  • Recruiting?
    April 1, 2008 2:36 p.m.

    Not really knowing much about the topic, most of the instances I read on this board of gay recruiting, are involving teenagers. This doesnt really say much, since sexual promiscuity for heterosexual teenagers is just as prevalent. I would think that if you dont want teenagers to be sexually active (both heterosexually and homosexually) then you should probably begin with an informative and open discussion at home. To ignore this as a parental responsibility, no doubt will lead to problems that you will eventually have to face one way or another.

  • re: Gay Agenda Definition
    April 1, 2008 2:35 p.m.

    Gay Agenda Definition
    They have equal rights. You mean additional rights.
    There is a Gay Agenda. It is to get the lifestyle mainstreamed and accepted as normal by whatever means necessary. Hence SB1441 in Cal. Also, about 15 years ago the Congress debated a bill that had an addendum that would have "forced" ALL universities to teach creationism and homosexuality as an alternate lifestyle. Most people don't know how close the church came to closing the doors of BYU, Ricks, and BYU-H. I was not involved directly but I was a pretty close bystander to the administrators (almost family close), and they were VERY worried. Luckily the bill failed. You want an agenda put that on the list.
    Also, fall 2007 there was a class on Michigan's campus title "How to be Gay: Male Homosexuality as a Cultural Practice". It was repeatble for a total of six credit hours. Eng317 sec001. Taught by Halperin,David M. Our tax dollars at work!

  • Anonymous
    April 1, 2008 2:40 p.m.

    As a straight male I would agree that gay behavior is weird to me, but I really don't care one way or the other what other do.
    The people who make the biggest deal about it are no doubt hiding something.

  • noodle
    April 1, 2008 2:59 p.m.

    I would like to know how some people would feel if i said that i don't want to have the christian agenda pushed on me. I don't want to have my children indoctrinated with their beliefs. Christianity is not the only way to be a person who has sound morals.

  • Anonymous
    April 1, 2008 3:10 p.m.

    Someday, hopefully sooner than later, the phrase "Gay lifestyle" or "Gay agenda" will be thought of like we think the phrase "taking the motor car to the moving picture show" is for us today.

  • irony
    April 1, 2008 3:16 p.m.

    The ironic thing is that lesbians have far lower STD rates than heterosexuals. So should we avoid that unhealthy straight lifestyle??

  • what are they hiding?
    April 1, 2008 3:23 p.m.

    A truly happy, well-adjusted straight person isn't concerned with the sexual habits of others.

    They simply do not care one way or the other.

    I wonder what it is that the most vicious of gay-haters are hiding (or trying to hide)?

  • Re: hiding?
    April 1, 2008 3:55 p.m.

    "A truly happy, well-adjusted straight person isn't concerned with the sexual habits of others?"

    What an extremely naive and thoughtless comment. I'm sure I could give you examples of sexual habits that would upset even you, but this is a family newspaper blog.

    I don't hate gays and have nothing to hide, but I do fear that if the gay lifestyle ever becomes the "norm," there will be nothing left of society worth preserving.

  • re: what are they hiding?
    April 1, 2008 4:04 p.m.

    Fact is: we don't care one way or the other about your sexual habits. That's ultimately between you and God. What we do care about is your incessant whining for the public acceptance of your habits.

    Simple concept here: if you don't want people to talk about it, keep it to yourselves.

    PS - your argument doesn't really gain anything by the constant name calling of anyone who disagrees with you.

  • Indiana
    April 1, 2008 4:02 p.m.

    Listen up you defensive types. I just read nearly every message on here. I did NOT, repeat, did NOT read any overt hate. No one hates you. You get mad at people because they say homosexuality is a sin. Well, it is! If that makes you upset, get mad a God; alot of good that will do you. We did not make the rules. We do however stand by the Saviour and the rules He set up for those who wish to return to His presence. All sexual promiscuity is a sin, heterosexual and homosexual. Sex is for within the bonds of marriage for 2 people (a man and a woman) who have saved that precious gift for the one they want to spend their life/eternity with. This life is not all there is. It is however a time to prepare to meet God and we don't want to waste it.

    No one hates you. We just do NOT like the sin and the way it is growing and affecting youth...

  • WJ
    April 1, 2008 4:23 p.m.

    I don't believe that homosexuality should be portrayed as acceptable, but be careful how you judge. I once knew someone who was gay who would have chosen not to be if he could.

  • Ya know...
    April 1, 2008 4:18 p.m.

    ...there are no debates as to if heterosexuality is right or not. So, if it takes 3 pages to discuss this, and many pages every time this issue comes up, couldn't it be a possibility this is NOT a good thing to be involved in? Just a thought.

  • Houston
    April 1, 2008 4:27 p.m.

    I get so tired of hearing about the "gay agenda". I have been in a relationship for 10 years and the only agenda I have is to go bowling 2 nights a week and to keep my life as simple as possible.

    I work hard, try to live a good life, pay my bills and travel when I feel like it.

    I don't tell my children to hate others because they are different. I have served my church and my country.

    Now let me live in peace as far away from the bigots that populate the state of Utah.

  • yep, definitely hiding something
    April 1, 2008 4:34 p.m.

    A glance at Re: hiding 3:55 & 4:04
    indicates that these people simply cannot get beyond their obsession with gay people and what gay people do or don't do in the privacy of their own homes. These people who are obviously hiding something (those 100% secure with their sexuality, simply don't care) and would have us believe gay people are storming into their houses like al quaida is supposed to do and performing sexual acts in front of them.

    I think there is some deep-hidden sickness amongst these types who obsess about this.

  • DeLaval Milker
    April 1, 2008 4:28 p.m.

    Oren writes "It's a choice and not a good one"??

    When did you choose straight? Further to that, do you suppose someone would ever subject themselves voluntarily to the abuse, discrimination and hostility that must come with being gay in the most narrow minded place in the nation by choosing to do so?

  • rich
    April 1, 2008 4:29 p.m.

    Utah County is the a joke.
    I love reading about the people there, I love seeing the movies that unmask the truth about Utah County, it really is fun.
    Thanks again Utah County, you gave me something to laugh at, unfortunately you are hurting other people with your hate laws and your false sense of superiority.
    One thing is for sure, if there is a Jesus, he loves everyone, even the gays. I know that's a news flash for all you LDS/Utah County people, but it is true. I use to go to the LDS church, and they actually teach love, there is just a huge disconnect with the teachings and what is practiced.
    Thanks for the laughs though.

  • Ray
    April 1, 2008 4:51 p.m.

    Homosexuals have to be made to remain in the closet, there is no place for such abnormal behavior in an open civilized society. Homosexuality like crime or any other adverse social condition increases and spreads when not controled. In the schools, like drugs, it is passed off as being cool. Too many young people are getting off on the wrong foot because of gay influence.

  • Live and let live
    April 1, 2008 4:48 p.m.

    I'm LDS, I don't mind people being Gay. I don't want Gay unions to be labeled Marriage for my own reasons or my children to feel that Gay is normal/acceptable as behavior in their youth at least, where I, being the parent, would have influence over their future and growth.

    I can teach them that it is wrong and the religious philosophy behind it. However, I would also teach that everyone has the agency or will to decide for themselves what they will. I teach that it is wrong in God's eyes but that it isn't my place to force my will on others.

    So in this light understand that being LDS doesn't mean hating Gays.(Utah is irrelevant, people on here REALLY need to travel more... It does happen to be a national topic of debate)

    But there are some who are LDS who are more extreme. There are some who are Gay who are extreme. I have a friend who is gay and we get along fine. Why can't you people?

    Many shout against my freedom to speech on this matter. They are wrong. There are two sides. I'm getting along, I know some gays who do.

  • MP
    April 1, 2008 4:54 p.m.

    I believe that we, as a society, are confused about what is right & wrong! Read & ponder the following -
    2 Timothy 3: 1-7
    1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
    2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
    3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
    4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
    5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
    6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
    7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

  • Live and let live Continued..
    April 1, 2008 5:02 p.m.

    My point is that I live with the acknowledgment that I believe as I do and so does my neighbor. This meeting isn't intolerance. Teaching that same-gender attraction is a social problem under certain views while acknowledging that the others are free to think is not intolerance.

    This is called a difference of opinion. Intolerance would be teaching children that no one has the right to be Gay or that they don't have to respect someone who is Gay because of the fact.

    Intolerance is stating to a person that disagrees and goes their own way that they are in error and doesn't accept their rights either.

    Just live and let live!

  • jay
    April 1, 2008 5:03 p.m.

    what exactly is the 'homosexual agenda?' and if such an agenda exists, then I am really interested as to what part of elementary school curriculum it falls under. Math? Science? Social Studies?

  • Brandon Burt
    April 1, 2008 5:05 p.m.

    For all you people who are scared of the so-called "homosexual agenda," I suggest you stay well away from its purveyors.

    You can start with me. I suggest you keep a distance of at least 3 miles. Then we'll all be happy.

    Anybody who wants to bring back the days of anti-gay brutality is crazy and evil, and should be shunned.

    If you don't feel you need to tolerate our existence on this planet, we won't feel any need to tolerate yours, either.

  • Just wondering
    April 1, 2008 5:05 p.m.

    Can anyone suggest a valid argument against homosexuality that isn't based in religion?

  • Anonymous
    April 1, 2008 5:06 p.m.

    One of the not-so-talked about facts about Salt Lake City is its large gay population. Second to San Francisco in fact.

    The gays I know are respectable, law-abiding people and are absolutely no threat to me or my children.
    In discussing the matter with my children, I could never in a million years play God with them by suggesting I know how God must view gays. I leave that for the conservative-types. I simply teach my children to accept and love everyone, though different from you. But I am fortunate in that is how I was raised. Others are not so lucky and now have biases, prejudices, fears and even hatred towards these people even though they are not bothering them in any way but being themselves.

  • I follow my own heart
    April 1, 2008 5:10 p.m.

    Sorry MP, although I am very glad bible stories are important for you, if I would focus on bible stories instead of following my own heart and trust in myself regarding this matter, I would still believe in talking snakes in The Garden.

  • It appears
    April 1, 2008 5:17 p.m.

    That these two Groups that Align themselves with each other are trying to promote an Agenda of killing and rioting against people.

    I will let you know that BYU has more Gay's than that of any other University in Utah.

    So, maybe the Church should step in here, and defend it's own children.

    Homosexual kids? Kids make there own choices, they either have that sort of attraction or they do not.

    Other peoples lifes styles do not convert people to (that corner) or any other.

    If anything, people (children) despise one life style over another.

    The same gender attraction thing is just what it is.

    Until all of you "holier than thou" people quit all your sins that are not publisized, you really have no room to complain much.

  • Indiana
    April 1, 2008 5:18 p.m.

    to I follow y own heart: It is too bad you don't... Those Bible stories are pretty crucial to understanding God, His Son, Jesus Christ and our place among them... all good things to know.

  • RE: Ray
    April 1, 2008 5:20 p.m.

    You have no civilized society.

    I've seen it. I see it every day on the news and in Your home.

    Ray, we will Make a Closet for you.. Because, that's exactly where you belong.

  • Disgusted by people i love
    April 1, 2008 5:30 p.m.

    I AM GAY and i dont even know of this Gay agenda?? how can straight people?
    What happend to the SEPERATION of CHURCH and STATE? I want to get married YES i said married to the same sex no way do i want to have an lds ceremony i just want to be able to visit the one i love on his death bed if he is there or be able to just own the same house and say we are happily married.

  • Jennifer
    April 1, 2008 8:40 p.m.

    There is no 'homosexual agenda'. It is more like 'homophobia agenda', fear and hate towards those who perhaps have those feelings and it is so frightening to them, they create some imaginary conspiracy theory to wipe it off the face of the earth, rather than look inwards and accept what is there. What is scary to me, is that this low level conciousness still exists in 2008!

  • Adam Streeter
    April 1, 2008 10:26 p.m.

    I am gay, and I graduated from American Fork High School. I know the principal there, and I am glad that she decided to cancel this meeting, not because I have some personal agenda, but because it just isn't the appropriate venue for such a thing. Unfortunately, Belinda Jensen still chose to spread awareness of this event using her PTSA contacts and her PTSA e-mail account, even after it was canceled at the school. This is unethical no matter which side of the issue she falls on.

    I can only imagine how the gay students at AF High feel right now. They are represented by a person who is not working in their best interest and feels that their identity is the result of some grand scheme to corrupt society.

    This is the kind of thing that causes suicide and drug use. Not the fact that the students are gay, but the fact that they are pushed into ghettos and closets and made to feel that their schools, their religions, even their own families want nothing to do with them.

    It sounds like this man's presentation was nothing but generalizations and stereotypes that have no grounding in reality.

  • Unbelievable
    April 1, 2008 10:47 p.m.

    Straight people who comment like they know what it is like to be gay amaze me. I am a gay man. Do you think for one second I wouldn't change that. Do you think I enjoyed being different from everyone I know. Having different feelings than everyone else. If you think I made this choice you are nuts. I live a normal life, i do not have nor transmit STDs and being intimate with a child is the farthest thing from my mind. I would never wish this on anyone, let alone try to influence a child.

    Quoting the bible is also ridiculous. The Christian Bible is not some universal rule book. and even if it were Jesus' greatest commandment given to man (after love the lord your god with all your heart, soul & mind, is "Love thy neighbor as they self." There were no qualifiers attached to this such as "unless they are gay, or black or poor or democrat"

  • Ashamed AFHS Student
    April 1, 2008 10:57 p.m.

    As a student of AFHS I am ashamed to have Belinda Johnson as my PTA President, and am also upset with community leaders. As a representitive of AFHS she should be trying to make all the students feel accepted-not going around and fixing the "gay problem."
    I am glad that Mrs. Merril canceled the meeting. There has been over the past few years instances of violence against homosexuals at AFHS. Things from graffiti on lockers, to broken noses to being robbed.
    There are bigger "problems" in AFHS than homosexuality. Things like teen pregnancy, drug abuse and suicide. AFHS has already experienced a string of suicides this year, adding more hate and blind prejudice into the mix will not be fixing any problem, (gay or otherwise) just creating more. Heavens forbid we focus on the real problems.
    And don't even bring God into this argument. Who is anyone to say that someone is right and someone is wrong. Just because someone is a homosexual doesn't make them a bad person. You may not agree with what they do, but teaching your children to hate and judge blindly will not create a more "christ like world." It'll be just the opposite.

  • Dave
    April 1, 2008 11:10 p.m.

    Homosexuality undermines the Family which is the central unit of society. Reproduction is innate and purposeful. Homosexuals, not unlike many heterosexuals cannot procreate; homosexuals, however, could never procreate, even if desired. Does not this alone tell us something? Homosexuality is wrong and goes against fundamental natural standards. Decisions need to consciously and carefully be made that will further values that perpetuate the family staying in tact. Homosexuality undermines the very foundations of a family unit, and turn that which is right and appropriate into something and not used properly.

  • Anonymous
    April 1, 2008 11:30 p.m.

    What do people mean by saying there is no homosexual agenda? I am a male over 65 and grew up in New York City and its suburbs. From the time I was 5 years old I was being approached by perverts with only one object in mind. They were older teens who were sons of my parent's friends, they were boys in the schools, and as I grew up they were older males who were in positions of authority over me. In all that time of growing up, I was never propositioned for a heterosexual relationship, only homosexual ones. It was disgusting. Homosexuals indeed have a very nasty agenda and always have had.

  • Re:Dave
    April 1, 2008 11:29 p.m.

    "Homosexuality undermines the very foundations of a family unit, and turn that which is right and appropriate into something and not used properly."

    How exactly does homosexuality undermine the family unit?

    Do you honestly feel like your family is going to fall apart if they come in contact with a gay person?

  • re: Dave
    April 1, 2008 11:34 p.m.

    Care to justify your accusations?

    HOW does being gay "undermine" the family?

    HOW does a small portion of the population not reproducing constitute being wrong?

    All these homophobic "people" are just so used to mindlessly repeating these talking points. They have never ONCE justified them.

  • Re: annonymous 11:30
    April 1, 2008 11:48 p.m.

    Since you are obviously completely unaware, being gay is NOT the same thing as being a pedophile. And many pedophiles are HETEROSEXUAL.

    However, the horror of pedophilia has nothing to do with the REAL gay "agenda" which is about not wanting people butting their heads into the private lives of others. People need to stop worrying so much over what other consenting adults do in the privacy of their own bedroom. Its not like they make you watch or anything.

  • Want to know a secret?
    April 1, 2008 11:58 p.m.

    50 years ago, hate-mongers were saying the exact same things about blacks and other minorities that people are now throwing at the gay community. It was the hate-mongers who were wrong then and they're wrong now.

    "Protect our children from homosexuals"

    "Don't let a black man date your daughter"

    Same stuff, different target.

  • Utah County Resident
    April 2, 2008 12:33 a.m.

    I love how people say we should not judge others and in the same sentence rip on all of Utah County because of a meeting of 20 people.

    Ironic isn't it?

  • MLK
    April 2, 2008 1:29 a.m.

    It's really hard to get past the fear of the unknown. It's really easy to fall into trap of anecdotal evidence. And it would be really nice if we could find new ground for this topic. Good arguments and strong sentiments have been laid out now.

    I think we can all agree that people are generally afraid if not repulsed by promiscuity, not so much orientation. And that it would be easier if 100% of the population, like a tulip garden, lined up perfectly. But around 5% of us are like the covalent bonds I remember learning in HS Chemistry class - O2 (rather than NaCl) - we connect to one like our own.

    I know for Mormons, the Proclamation (1995) was supposed to be the final answer. But, it isn't - my hunch is that it will be amended one day (I didn't say thrown out - just tweaked). Just like blacks and the priesthood.

    If Dick Cheney and Dick Gephardt can handle all this, we can too. It's coming time for all of us to move on. And live well. And learn Chinese. And have a production of Rent staged regionally - so that we can learn.

  • Bible beaters.....
    April 2, 2008 1:49 a.m.

    Falling back on religious arguments, eh?

    Only God determines sin, prosecutes, and sits in judgement. I do not, and neither do any of you. Makes me wonder what the hidden agenda is of the religious right.

  • boiseguy
    April 2, 2008 4:31 a.m.

    homosexuality doesn't undermine anything, because it has always existed, and will continue to exist. Awful parenting, drug addiction, poverty, are all serious issues that undermine the family and other important societal structures. Two men or women looking to marry each other is not even on the RADAR as far as I'm concerned when it comes to "problems" facing our society. It goes back to blindedness that is rampant in american society. I had roomates from norway who always laughed about americans. We gasp at the thought of movies where two people are having sex, and make a big fuss about it and its morality, yet we turn around and support movies where people's head's are being blown off or people are turning into monsters and eating each other. Where's the logic??? Sex and love are where people turn for acceptance and closeness and it is what creates cohesiveness in our society.. to deny that to any human being in our society is simply ridiculous and goes against what you're trying to promote. What do you wish for gay people? should they continue to be unwanted and rejected.. only to turn to drug abuse and harmful destructive behavior? we deserve better!

  • THE FAMILY
    April 2, 2008 5:46 a.m.

    (by which is meant a married man and woman, who most likely will have and care for a family as a natural product of their married relationship) is the basic essential building block of a healthy society. It does not occur spontaneously and requires nurturing and support from society.

    There are a great many forces that by their nature tear down the family; adultery, prostitution, premarital sex, drug and alcohol addiction, pornography, homosexuality; to name a few. Society has a vested interest (tho it may not recognize it) to foster and promote the family, and by extension, to not promote those destructive competing influences.

    There is a huge financial cost to a family to raise children (and ideally a family that dedicates one parent to be a caregiver and not outside breadwinner) Society has recognized that by giving "family" benefits to breadwinners. When you extend those benefits to everyone they are no longer benefits. Not every family will be the ideal, but society must work to see that as many have that opportunity as possible.

    WE ARE LOSING THAT BATTLE as a society, as the posts here make clear.

  • Paul
    April 2, 2008 5:54 a.m.

    I don't agree with same gender attraction, and no one can force anyone to agree with it.

  • dear: Re: annonymous 11:30
    April 2, 2008 6:12 a.m.

    you said:

    "the REAL gay "agenda" which is about not wanting people butting their heads into the private lives of others"

    GIVE ME A BREAK

    Homosexuals thrust their "bedroom" behavior into society's face by defining themselves and every aspect of their existence in terms of that behavior.

    Homosexuals evidently have no idea how much society DOES"T CARE and is SICK of being being BOMBARDED with every aspect of your tortured personal agonies.

    Quit demanding that society (govt or employers) $ubsidize YOUR PRIVATE CHOICES

    Quit demanding that society embrace and affirm and legitimize YOUR PRIVATE CHOICES

    Quit sending people into the public schools to indoctrinate our children with YOUR PRIVATE CHOICES

    Quit blaming society if you feel depressed or suicidal about YOUR PRIVATE CHOICES

    Quit expecting the world to ignore biological and psychological realities to accommodate YOUR PRIVATE CHOICES

    please reacquaint your self with the concept of PRIVATE

    you are like the obnoxious fan at the ball game with bare belly painted, huge wig, screaming drunk for three hours his love for the home team. unfortunately this game has been going on for decades.

  • Hmmmm
    April 2, 2008 6:23 a.m.

    Homosexuality is associated with depression and suicide? Well, that may be true because meetings like this happen. But then again, look in your own back yard, Utah. I have no doubt that homosexuality is part of who a person is, it is a choice how you then live your life. I am for being informed and then translating that into proper reasons for tolerance. Hopefully, we don't find Graham one day in a bathroom stall in Minnesota or looking for crystal meth in Colorado Springs, LOL. Oh yeah, and GO COUGARS! The season is right around the corner!

  • ohio
    April 2, 2008 6:34 a.m.

    On Oprah the other day one of the guests was a wife of a polygamist marriage. She made an interesting statement that with all the alternative lifestyles that are accepted why not polygamy?

    Everyone wants there special interest to be widely embraced regardless of how good, bad or ugly it may be.

  • you do so wish
    April 2, 2008 6:53 a.m.

    that you could tap into the moral high ground of the Civil Rights Movement to legitimize your lifestyle choices.

    It is obscene to equate the struggles of a race to overcome slavery and discrimination with the desire to justify aberrant personal behavior.

    I don't think many people will buy it.


  • Kevin
    April 2, 2008 7:07 a.m.

    To "dear: Re: annonymous 11:30" at 6:12 a.m. Apr. 2, 2008

    It's our shared PUBLIC policy that makes gay people's lives difficult. It is the reason gay people are making so much noise. You can yell all you want, but I for one will not stop seeking equal rights on matters that pertain to having a family. I doubt other gay people will stop either. You can object to the existence of families headed by same-sex couples, as you have.

    But this is America. I am pursuing happiness... and equality. I want to be able to adopt with someone, or have a surrogacy contract that holds up in court. Legal marriage would be nice. You may disapprove, just as I probably disapprove about some aspects of how you are raising your own family.

    My life is as PRIVATE as yours, but in the context of your presumed sexual orientation, you have no legal limitations. I do. You're smoking crack if you think a full 1 out of 20 or so people are going to just roll over and enjoy these limitations.

  • Kristen
    April 2, 2008 7:18 a.m.

    I'm sick to my stomach and near tears over some of the things I'm reading here. As a former resident of Utah County, and the mother of a gay son, who definitely didn't "choose" his orientation, I'm disgusted by the hate and ignorance expressed in some of these posts. I'm LDS, but on my way out, largely due to the intolerance and hate-mongering subtly taught by the church. Christ's church? What a joke. I thank god I'm out of Utah every day. You don't even see how truly hateful you are being.

    Thank you to those who support gays, their families, and gay rights. Although it's not a situation a parent would normally choose for themselves or their children, I wouldn't change who my son it, or watching him and develop into who he is for anything. Parents of gays and lesbians want the same things for their children every parent wants - happiness, success in life, and safety to be who they were born to be. That's the agenda, the same as the heterosexual one. And that's bad why?

  • Lisa
    April 2, 2008 7:58 a.m.

    Homosexuals and gay life styles are just wrong no matter how you look at it. It is naturally wrong, it is socially wrong, it is mentally wrong, it is religiously wrong, it is wrong for the individual and it is wrong for the community and the nation. If it is accepted into america mainstream it will destroy our normal life style, our culture and our religious life and commitment to a higher authority. We need to unite to protect our selves and our children and future generations from this sickness.

  • Anonymous
    April 2, 2008 8:15 a.m.

    I know the Savior taught us to love everyone, but I don't think he meant people we don't agree with. It couldn't possibly mean people with a different sexual orientation than me, or opposing political views. Also, I choose to disguise this hatred as "protecting the children".

  • suzyk
    April 2, 2008 8:19 a.m.

    Bravo to ??...what you expressed is right. It all comes down to control of our feelings and bodies. Don't blame the Lord...he had nothing to do with it...we all have weaknesses and the end result is what we choose to do with them. It's that simple. Don't make it something it is not.

  • Jeff
    April 2, 2008 8:26 a.m.

    Get real! You can't turn somebody gay.

  • have compassion for this culture
    April 2, 2008 9:01 a.m.

    This culture is fear-based and thrives on setting people apart. "We all like to look alike, think alike, act alike ... no exceptions welcome."

    They like to circle the wagons at the drop of a hat.

    It's the persecution/Last Days syndrome that has been beaten into their heads since day one.

    I have the utmost compassion for these people.

    It certainly is not the way I would want to live my life.

  • U have greater potential
    April 2, 2008 9:09 a.m.

    Everyone is a child of God. Everyone is free to choose happiness or sadness. Everyone has the potential for success in this life, regardless of their circumstances. Everyone came into this world being born to a father and a mother, who also have free agency to be a good or bad parent. Everyone has the potential to be a mother or a father, even if adoption is necessary, but it is a poor choice for any of us to try to compromise the right a child should have to be raised by a father and a mother. Gays have all of these rights like anyone else. Don't give up your potential of noble titles (father or mother).

    We must learn to have a love for all. People will make poor choices and they will be unhappy for it. We still love them. But we can't make them happy by condoning poor choices. Gays will never be happy with their lifestyle, because by their choosing they have forfeited the rights of family as God intended it. No one can be happy living in sin. So accepting others sins, doesn't make them happier. There is no alternate way to be happy.

  • Re: Dave
    April 2, 2008 9:15 a.m.

    Homosexuality undermines the very foundations of a family unit..


    I actually feel that traditional families would BENEFIT by having the gay population accepted and free to live their lives without fear of persecution from friends, family and Church members. I know of a couple in my ward who were married in the temple and had 4 children, before he came out to his wife. It was very devastating to this family because divorce followed. This would have never happened if this brother hadnt felt like he needed to overlook his homosexuality to conform to Church and family expectations. I cant help but wonder how many similar stories there are out there. I would much rather see gays accepted and free to live a lifestyle that suits them , then feel that they must fit the mold, pretend to be straight, and marry heterosexuals to be accepted. It is the latter that will destroy families.

  • True Standards = Happiness
    April 2, 2008 9:52 a.m.

    THE FAMILY | 5:46 a.m.
    Dave | 11:10 p.m.
    U have greater potential | 9:09 a.m.

    What more needs to be said?

  • Your Neighbor
    April 2, 2008 9:59 a.m.

    My dearest Heterosexual hatemongers...
    Please, could you turn down the volume? It seems to be interferring with my focus on refining my GAY AGENDA of WORLD DOMINATOIN, here in my humble abode in the insignificant city of SALT LAKE (in terms of the world at large, of course). Though, as I view the world you are developing, quite sure you could easily have it all for yourself, filled with hunger, the homeless and helpless, corruption, war, chaos, and deciet.. among other delights. BTW - The Homosexual existence is not one of sadness and hatred, it only seems to be a residual effect to your lack of acceptance and understanding. Aferall, do we 'gays and lesbians' not see RAINBOWS amongst every breathe? Now, go and replenish the earth as you are commanded by your dieties so that the future generations of this fabulous planet of ours can see the reality and vision of complete acceptance and LOVE, that you (well, the minority of you, optimistically calculated) all seem to be unable to grasp :-)

  • irony
    April 2, 2008 10:18 a.m.

    On the Standard of Liberty website there is a page by Janice Graham that gets to the point. Their son Drew is gay but they sent him to therapy and now he is `fixed'. She wrote a book "My Darling from the Lions. Compelling journal entries reveal a mothers life-changing spiritual journey paralleling her sons stuggle with and success in overcoming pornography addiction and homosexual tendencies."

  • Jess
    April 2, 2008 10:24 a.m.

    Dear Personally,
    You accuse Mormons of pushing our religion onto other people and recuriting them to our way of thinking. We are not the only religion that does this. Most every Church has some sort of missionaries that are trying to "recurit" people to our religion. We do not force our religion on anyone, or at least we shouldn't. When we send missionaries out, we are just offering people the chance to join our church, we are not forcing them, nor would we ever.
    And not all the Mormons are intolerant as you seemed to think. I have two gay friends and I accept them for who they are. It doesn't make a bit of difference to me if they are gay, straight, bisexual, whatever. They're good people and nothing else matters besides that.

  • Re: True Standards=Happiness
    April 2, 2008 10:54 a.m.

    Which True Standards do you refer? Did the True and living prophets over the last 170 yrs tell you these True Standards? How do you know they are True? How do you know that these True Standards are the only path to Happiness? Hasnt history told you yet that your prophets make mistakes? Somehow in Mormondom, what is unequivocally True only becomes some general authorities Opinion in the hindsight of history.

  • Happy living truth
    April 2, 2008 11:15 a.m.

    To 10:54,

    I don't refer to you for true standards, that's for sure.

  • Studies Not Needed
    April 2, 2008 11:38 a.m.

    I didn't need to know the result of some study or to be told by parents, friends, teachers or the media that at a certain age (as a heterosexual male) I was extremely attracted to the opposite sex. That folks was not a choice in any stretch of the imagination. And in the exact same way, the desire toward the same sex comes from the same innate, uncoerced, biological drive. Same sex attraction admittedly is not the norm so it scares some. The thought of a free black person back in 1775 was not the norm either and the thought of it created fear and had many turning to their bibles for proof that blacks were born to be owned. People, use your common God-given sense. Nothing is more of an innate biological response than sexual attraction. It is not something you turn on or off or just choose on a whim or can even be influenced into. No amount of media, pictures, personal insecurity, or peer influences could have suddenly made me desire to be with the same sex. Turn off your dogma and turn on your brain PLEASE!!!

  • Hate Speech defined
    April 2, 2008 11:46 a.m.

    Quinns third law of liberalism.
    Hatespeech is anything that Liberals disagree with or that is contrary to or does not support the liberal agenda.
    So don't tell me how you feel. Tell me how I want you feel or else you are just hateful.
    And because we abhorre sin does not mean we abhorre the sinner.
    And to Kristen on her way out. I doubt you would be on your way out because of others. There is nothing that another person in this world can do if you continue to foster your testimony of the gospel. You alone are letting it die. Please take responsibility for your own actions and don't blame others. You know the other members are not perfect-just like you- so don't think you can hold them to a higher standard than you hold yourself. This even goes for your church leaders. They are just imperfect men called to postions of authority (that are tempted even greater than you).

  • have compassion for them
    April 2, 2008 11:59 a.m.

    Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

    The saddest thing about our conservative brothers and sisters is how methodically and meticulously they caste their aspersions, judge their fellow man, all the while pretending to be something they clearly are not - spiritually worthy.

    Have compassion for these poor, judgemental fools.

  • Name Calling
    April 2, 2008 12:04 p.m.

    It's funny to see how many homosexuals scream at the top of their voices how persecuted they are, how fear is used to discriminate against them and how they are called names....

    Have you stopped to read any of your own posts? Some of them are the most hate-filled and vile postings I've ever seen. And nope, after reading them I still wouldn't think about changing my stance that homosexuality is wrong.

    Your plight is nowhere near the Civil Rights Movement no matter how much you try to make it.

    Have you actually watched your Gay Pride Parades? Disgusting, revolting behavior. You want to be taken seriously then start acting a little more mature.

    And the comments of How does my wanting a homosexual marriage or adoption affect my marriage just make me laugh. No one ever said you affect my marriage. You affect the family that God created with man and woman. That is the ideal. That is what is expected of mankind. You don't like it, take it up with God. His word is right there for you to read and understand.

    I don't buy your argument. Society is falling apart because of the natural family breakdown.

  • yes compassion please
    April 2, 2008 12:23 p.m.

    The saddest thing about our liberal brothers and sisters is how methodically and they cast their aspertions, judge their fellow man, all the while pretending to be something they aren't - spiritually worthy.

    please have compassion on these poor, judgmental fools.

    For proof of these comments, just read this blog. Funny how it is the liberals, homosexuals who judge and name call to those who disagree with their lifestyles. Yet they think they are open-minded and inclusive...only when someone has the same mindset as them. Otherwise....watch out....

  • 1 in 20
    April 2, 2008 12:26 p.m.

    Kevin,

    Where do you get your stats that 1 in 20 is homosexual? It never ceases to amaze how people will lie to make their case seem more important and correct...

    As for the Proclamation being 'tweaked' in coming years....silly thought my friend...just look at how that Proclamtion has become reality. Even the elect will be deceived....Thanks to Isaiah who saw our time...evil will be called good and good called evil.

    Truth is always truth, not matter the circumstances. God doesn't lower His standards because we humans aren't strong enough to live by them. We will get our just reward; nothing more, nothing less. It's all about obedience, the my will or wants or needs...but God's.

    As for loving my homosexual neighbor and friend...always have, always will. doesn't mean I agree with their behavior. I've had lesbians babysit my children. I have neighbors who commit adultery...I still have BBQ's with them, but I don't agree with what they are doing. Support her MS effort each year.

    It is you, the homosexuals, who can't love the neighbor who doesn't agree with your behavior. It is YOU. Go look in the mirror and see the hate you have for your neighbor!

  • thank the conservatives
    April 2, 2008 12:29 p.m.

    yes compassion please 12:23 -

    This is an excellent but intensely sad example of how the conservative mind works.

    By holding a mirror up to themselves they see what they are, don't like it, and then like a magician's slight-of-hand move, turn the whole issue around and project their not-so-cleverly concealed personality quirks onto a different person, group, etc.

    And of course, the word liberal (which has been thoroughly denigrated from the original Websters definition to a Rush Limbaugh-type political definition) is always in their someplace.

    These Rush O'Hannity types are to be thanked, for they are bringing the American people back together again for a much, much better world than exists now.

  • RangerGordon
    April 2, 2008 12:30 p.m.

    NameCalling: You can refuse to change your stance all you want. Gays can get along quite well without your approval.

    In fact, I prefer it when you people are outspokenly anti-gay; that makes it much easier to see the kind of person you really are.

    I don't know where you got the idea that gays are seeking your approval. You can disapprove until you're blue in the face and tell us we're bad and stomp your feet all you like. No skin off our nose.

    We only demand equal treatment under the law.

    You people constantly claim that gays are a "threat to traditional marriage." Yet, you admit your marriages aren't threatened by gays.

    How can that be? It's irrational, like all homophobia is.

  • Heterophobia is Irrational
    April 2, 2008 12:56 p.m.

    RangerGordon,

    You have equal treatment under the law.

    What you want is special treatment, and exceptions to the law.

    True, you are not a threat to traditional marriage, but only because we won't allow you to redefine what marriage is, and the morals it stands on.

  • Anonymous
    April 2, 2008 1:07 p.m.

    The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.
    -John Kenneth Galbraith

    This description is quite evident in the postings above. You can find morality police by the sackful in Utah.

    What a sad bunch they are!

  • my 2 cents
    April 2, 2008 1:09 p.m.

    I think it should be pointed out that the gay community in this country bears some responsibility for the lack of acceptance that they face in society. I have nothing against homosexuality as a lifestyle; but even moderates like myself tend to take a second look at supporting gay rights when I see outrageous public displays at gay parades, rallys and other events. I dont dislike gays and lesbians, but I do dislike open promiscuity and the distasteful behavior and apparel exhibited publicly at these events. If the gay community is serious about being accepted in mainstream society, they would find more support by toning down the rhetoric, and demonstrating to the rest of the country that they are no different from their heterosexual counterparts.

  • RangerGordon
    April 2, 2008 1:19 p.m.

    Irrational:

    If, as you've admitted, marriage equity doesn't harm heterosexual marriage, then there is no compelling reason to treat us differently under the law, and it's really not up to you to say whether or not marriage law applies to gay families simply because we offend your questionable ideas of who is moral and who isn't.

    It's up to the courts.

  • Life
    April 2, 2008 1:25 p.m.

    I was threatened for my life in my last year of HS by the so called Jesus Followers, I love the LDS Church, its the followers i dont understand he preached love and acceptance even among the adulturers and sinners. He also said forgive them father for they know not what they do. And D&C 64:10 says I the lord will forgive whom i will forgive but of you it is required to forgive all men. Doesnt that also mean Love?

    RE:Kristen- Thank you for your words they made me want to cry to know that there are at least some decent people out there.

    What if god doesnt exist all these people saying things in his name would just be proven wrong and gay people can have families its called adoption and invetro fertilization, some of the best families are from that.

    And a Gay agenda just makes me laugh i am gay and i dont know anything of this sort besides wanting the same rights and not having to worry. I pay my taxes like everyone else so why cant i have the same rights?

  • Anonymous
    April 2, 2008 1:54 p.m.

    God is not full of hate like you hatemongers are. It will all come back to you in another life.

  • You're logic is still irrational
    April 2, 2008 2:16 p.m.

    Ranger, ranger, ranger:

    If you define marriage equity as everyone's right to have a traditional marriage under the law, then yes I admit that marriage equity does not harm marriage.

    Don't blame me or the courts that you can't have all the privileges of marriage, including children. We can't be responsible for the sadness you choose by denying yourself marriage (Between a man and a woman) which is equally available to you.




  • Hmmmmm...
    April 2, 2008 2:38 p.m.

    Who is it that is hateful? Take a look at the posts on these message boards.

    Those who are against the gay agenda use the words: sinful, abomination, immoral, degrading, harmful, perversion, bad, weakness, unhealthy, wrong, consequences, contrary, alarming, unnatural, destructive, harmful, weird, abnormal. These clearly describe someones ACTIONS.

    Those who are pushing the gay agenda use the words: intolerant, judgmental, hypocritical, homophobic, ignorant, close-minded, small-minded, hate-monger, hateful, fearful, venomous, profane, angry, bigoted, loons, clown, yahoos, lies, spiteful, discriminate, bible-thumpers, indecent, insecure, uneducated, utards, hostile, simple-minded, narrow-minded, nosy, animosity, repressed, vicious, crazy, evil, holier-than-thou, un-Christ like, irrational, zealot. These clearly attack the PERSON.

    Now, please tell me - who is hateful?

  • It's a karma thing
    April 2, 2008 2:50 p.m.

    to: God is not full of hate -

    How right you are!

    Conservatives embrace the wrathful-god notion. The God that is perpetually angry and who sends people into everlasting hellfire - because HE loves them.
    Conservatives LOVE that idea and try to be the same as their punitive Old Testament God.

    Today's New Testament God is the complete opposite.
    Open, caring, understanding, loving, not judgemental but accepting. Quite liberal actually.

    The Old Testament variety of people are in for a rude awakening when they pass on. Their conservative, punitive and judgemental ways will catch up to them sooner or later. It's the way it is.

  • It Morals in GENERAL!!
    April 2, 2008 3:01 p.m.

    It's an immoral society that is the problem and "gay" peoepl are part of it, just like "the other" people. Do you have "urges" to be with he same gender??? Well I have "urges" to be with all the "other sex" I can. If we act on them, we lose happiness.

    We are free to choose what we want to do, but we are unable to determine the consequences. If you CHOOSE to live a gay life, please don't ask to raise children. Evn if all your "body parts" work correctly, you will never be able to cocieve a child....your choice, your consequence. I'm not saying you are "bad"...its just your choice.

    All our morals could use some fixing!!!

  • Marriage?
    April 2, 2008 3:02 p.m.

    Yes i do agree we can get married to the opposite sex if we choose to but you cant get mad at us when we ruin a family when they find out we are attracted to the same sex after having three kids. So which do you want to happen to society the only way i see us ruining the name and values of "marraige" is if we are forced to do it and tear the family apart. Where as if we could do it with out the fear and the forcment then marriage still would have the same meaning- Two people who really love eachother. Marriage after all was a government issued certificate so it has nothing to do with religion only if you choose to have your religion involved.

  • RangerGordon
    April 2, 2008 3:15 p.m.

    Irrational:

    What a condescending tone you've adopted.

    However, what makes you think gays can't have children? Lots of gays do. And why do you think children in gay families are less deserving of their families' legal recognition?

    I'm sure you'll come up with something, but the fact remains it's just not up to you to say. The courts will rule in favor of gay marriage one day.

    You're free to have your opinion--and you're free not to marry someone of the same sex--but the rest of the world is under no obligation to live according to your wishes.

  • RE:You're logic is still irratio
    April 2, 2008 3:18 p.m.

    RE: You're logic is still irrational
    Yes i do agree we can get married to the opposite sex if we choose to but you cant get mad at us when we ruin a family when they find out we are attracted to the same sex after having three kids. So which do you want to happen to society the only way i see us ruining the name and values of "marraige" is if we are forced to do it and tear the family apart. Where as if we could do it with out the fear and the forcment then marriage still would have the same meaning- Two people who really love eachother. Marriage after all was a government issued certificate so it has nothing to do with religion only if you choose to have your religion involved.

  • Town Heathan
    April 2, 2008 3:31 p.m.

    to: Ranger Gordon

    You are absolutly right!!!

    If Gay's are a threat to traditional marriage, then why is it that the heterosexual divorce rate is at over 50%?

    Seems heterosexual's are what is really a threat to traditional marriage, and at a much more alarming (volume) rate.

  • to it's a karma thing
    April 2, 2008 4:18 p.m.

    Really, Christ said if you love me keep my commandments. What part of thou shalt not commit adultery don't you understand? Fornication, same deal.

    I believe is was Christ who said in Mark 10, "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."

    Sounds to me that Christ told men to get married to a woman. As you would say, this is from your New Testament Christ... There are many more in the New Testament if you need them....

    Homosexuality will never be acceptable behavior. Christ said so. I'm sorry you can't deal with that very well, but that's just the way life is. We have choices to make and get to reap the consequences of those choices.

    As for the institution of marriage, it is being decimated because people can't follow the counsel above. And yes, homosexuals want to redefine marriage to their own liking. Sorry. As for rights, you have all the rights available to you in the eyes of the law!

  • I Feel Sad for Counterfeiters
    April 2, 2008 4:29 p.m.

    "Two people who really love each other?" is your new definition of marriage. What?

    Sorry, even if gay unions were considered marriage by the courts or whoever, it is still a poor substitution for the real thing. Why don't you push for Gay unions to have equal rights as married persons, then you wouldn't have to redefine marriage and the sanctity of that union.

    Keep blaming us for not giving you everything a traditional marriage would (Joy in your posterity through gay union--inconceivable), but it is not our fault your poor imitation of marriage will never measure up. We can't give you the happiness of marriage you so desperately want, until you give up the sin that can never truly replicate full happiness.

  • re: Informed
    April 2, 2008 4:41 p.m.

    I have no problem if people don't want to support those who are homosexual, that their right. However, I do have a problem if the information being distributed is not current and not factual causing fear and really in the end misinformation.

  • Grandfather of Four ... So Far
    April 2, 2008 10:33 p.m.

    I know by the same way I know that the Book of Mormon is the word of God and that Joseph was God's prophet of the restoration, that my homosexual sexual orientation is God-given and that I am responsible to act just as morally in my same-sex relationship as heterosexual couples sealed in the temple have always been expected to act in their relationships. I know this and I know that God knows it, as He is my witness.

  • Anonymous
    April 3, 2008 7:10 a.m.

    Grandfather...so you are saying that God "made" you gay. It was not something that you just allowed to grow? You know the parable of the good seed? Same situation. Only instead of it being a "good seed" it was the opposite. Don't you understand that you can nurture the "bad seed" also? Like another poster said, I have desires like these for beautiful women. If you use the arugument that you are only being who you truly are then I should leave my wife and kids and go be with all those women. But there is a thing called temptation and adversity that I must overcome. I am commanded by Christ (not the church) to be with my wife only. I obey that commandment and try to follow his teachings on how to prevent me from falling to those temptations. I know "God" did not make you gay. He allows Satan to tempt you according to YOUR weaknesses and if you succumb then you have proven yourself the unprofitable servant. He did not set you up for failure. You failed on your own. He has given you everything short of personal manafestations for you to succeed.

  • compassion always
    April 3, 2008 8:40 a.m.

    I have the utmost compassion for those who proclaim to be speaking for God but are so full of hatred for those different than them they are actually speaking for Satan and aren't even aware of it.

  • Darin
    April 3, 2008 9:07 a.m.

    re: compassion always:

    Way to play the "hate" card. No way I could have seen that one coming.

  • Richard
    April 3, 2008 9:18 a.m.

    Why are mormons the most intolerant people I have every met. It is actually funny. The comments on this mormon board illustrate the hate that the mormon church teaches.
    Don't worry mormons, you are not alone, most religion pretend to "love" but in reality they promote hate and war.
    I will continue to ski and hike on sundays with my family, teaching love and equality.
    I hope to see you all there!

  • Rules Judge
    April 3, 2008 9:51 a.m.

    When observing the modern liberal in verbal action ask a cogent relevant question they almost always will:
    01. Refuse to answer yes or no
    02. Get louder and talk faster or mock the questioner
    03. Point at other bad behavior to excuse their bad behavior (this is in vogue now)
    04. Topic-shift (often after being presented data on the current topic)
    05. Start the victim litany
    06. Talk or write non-stop to prevent further inquiry (a string of fact less assertions)
    07. Feign anger or surprise that the questioner would stoop so low, etc
    08. Claim its personal or under investigation so they cant comment
    09. State firmly that you dont understand (aka you are stupid)
    10. Present a distracting joke to trivialize the subject

  • Re: rules judge
    April 3, 2008 9:48 a.m.

    And the neo-conservatives...they do what?

  • Grandfather of Four ... So Far
    April 3, 2008 9:49 a.m.

    No, Anonymous, that is not what I was saying. Read and consider my whole message and all of the embedded and implied scriptural references from all of holy writ. Then you may get a more complete picture of what I am saying. -- May ye who have eyes to see and ears to hear both see and hear.

  • Feel Sad Why
    April 3, 2008 10:01 a.m.


    RE: I Feel Sad for Counterfeiters
    Have you ever been in a homosexual relationship? I doubt so, so how do you know its not the same feelings as a Heterosexual Relationship, Who gives you the authority to state that it doesnt deserve the same rights? Remeber to leave religion out of this because after all the Seperation of Church and State should still be inforced, To bad its all that your mind will think about. Love is Love it doesnt matter the gender god taught of love to everyone not just the opposite gender right?

  • Sad
    April 3, 2008 10:23 a.m.

    Sad to see some condescending attitudes here from purported followers of Christ. How easily you condemn others as sinners, having never stepped in their shoes.

    As an LDS member from abroad, living in Utah frequently reminds me of living among the Pharisees. Having gospel truths, Jesus instructed his followers to obey what the Pharisees taught, but he strongly criticized "hypocritical Pharisees" and those who were "leaven" among them that spoiled the whole group. Those Pharisees were so zealous for their oral interpretations that they violated the letter of Torah Law. Many were so focused on obedience and self-importance that they did not notice or care about the needs of those around them-- a problem that still rears its head among Church members today.

    As long as I live in a democratic nation, I will exercise my right to free agency and refrain from condemning my neighbors the right to exercise theirs. I must frequently remind myself that the Church for me, will always be about how the Gospel enriches my own life, and not what the members think or say. I am perfectly content to allow the Lord to sit in judgment of us all, in the last days.

  • dear Grandfather of Four
    April 3, 2008 12:26 p.m.

    that is very special. thank you for sharing it.

  • Anonymous
    April 3, 2008 2:48 p.m.

    I am afraid the Mormon church has dropped the ball.
    Their leaders seem to have forgotten to tell the flock that our God is an unconditionally, loving God.
    I think they are focusing on the Old Testament God who likes to throw people into hell - because He loves them instead of the New Testament God.

  • The Reality
    April 3, 2008 3:15 p.m.

    There are about as many scientist or doctors left who think homosexuality is NOT genetic as those left who still think the world was created in the past 6,000 actual calender years. And yet religious dogma and fear hang on far beyond all rational logic and evidence. It took until 1974 until rational minds realized the outdated, bigotted stance towards blacks in the LDS Church had to change. The same change (ration cloaked as revelation for those who are still irrational and need to believe God said so) will eventually come regarding the reality of homosexuality and genetics. In the meantime, those who must be told what to think rather than how to think will continue to believe homosexuality is a perverse choice rather than a genetic disposition as natural as heterosexuality. However - I do agree with some comments that the public flamboyency could be turned down a notch (or three) in order for more to actually hear the message rather than be distracted or turned off by the display. And I say that to my very flamboyent gay friend all the time!

  • Holmes
    April 3, 2008 3:25 p.m.

    There is no debate here.

    As I have learned from experience, you can't reason and rationalize with people who are unreasonable and irrational.

    Homosexuality is wrong on every plane and level. It's wrong biologically, spiritually, socially, economically; it's an unhealthy high risk lifestyle. There is no doubting these facts. With that said, there will always be people who justify it--- and they are irrational.

  • Paul
    April 3, 2008 3:39 p.m.

    The law of Natural Selection which applies to all living things puts forth the selfish gene theory- that is: genes fight to get passed on to the next generation (survival). Through reproduction, your genes get passed to your offspring. Only the strong genes, or better said, the genes which promote a healthy species and survival of the offspring of the next generation are the genes which survive and propagate themselves through successive generations. It is a fundamental tenant of of evolution- only the strong genes survive- how does a homosexual gene fit into this law? That's what I thought, it doesn't. Learn, my children.. The homosexual gene, if there were such a thing would not make it into the next generation of offspring and therefore natural selection (or nature) would naturally eliminate that gene. As animals evolve, the genes which promote the strength and survival of the species are naturally selected. Homosexuality is in direct conflict with natural selection- which I believe was a liberal scientific theory. Hmmmmm.

  • Anonymous
    April 3, 2008 4:13 p.m.

    I am sure homosexuality is "wrong" to you Holmes.
    I was raised with a live-and-let-live life philosophy and quite secure with my sexuality.

    I am afraid those who freak out at what complete strangers do in the privacy of their own homes may be trying to hide something they are afraid to face.

  • Suburbs of SLC
    April 3, 2008 4:26 p.m.

    To my fellow church members - way to continue portraying the negativity of the church. Congratulations, you have successfully supported their beliefs about the intolerance and general stupidity of members of the church. It would be nice if they were given the opportunity to hear what is actually preached by the heads of the church, which are in fact love-filled messages, but why should they bother? You've already proven to them that regardless of the messages preached, the congregations aren't listening.

    It's not our place to make laws restricting the rights of others to choose one lifestyle or another. The purpose of law is to protect one person from another. As homosexuals aren't doing anything to 'harm' another, that is outside the bounds of law. If you're worried the family is collapsing, and I agree that it is, you'd better rush back home to help build your family up. You have every right to teach your children what you believe. Leave it at that.

  • To Suburbs of SLC
    April 3, 2008 4:50 p.m.

    Wrong answer...

    We don't live in a vacuum- everything a person does affects everyone else. That's why we have laws. You say it does no harm. Yet, the social costs, health care costs, etc. are ever increasing and who pays those costs? It's hard to "build up my own family" when the money that I could spend on my own children goes toward the cost in tax dollars and increased health care premiums and social programs associated with so called "alternative lifestyles." You have no right to ask me to esentially subsidize immorality when I could use that money to "build up my family." Everything has an effect on everything else. The financial costs to any one individual may be small, but one dollar can't be in two places at once. I want that dollar to "build up my family" since I am a breeder an proud of it. Thank you, next.....

  • Kevin
    April 3, 2008 4:51 p.m.

    Paul, and all those who think variations in sexual orientation cannot have any association with gene function, consider there a number of genetic disorders that result in crippling disabilities and/or death very early in life. E.g. Duchenne muscular dystrohpy. Bisexuals could also be responsible for passing on whatever gene or genes.

    What's the phenotype anyway? There seem to be several states of sexual orientation. The onset of variations of sexual orientation could primarily happen at puberty, and may be a function exogenous factors.

    Lastly, sexual orientation variations don't have to be genetic to be rooting in biology.

    So, please. Think before you speak.

  • Same freedoms & rights for all
    April 3, 2008 6:28 p.m.

    The real debate seems to be about free agency and rights:

    As for free agency:

    Anyone who can have sex, can freely choose to have gay sex, even if it is a sin. We are all free to sin.

    As for rights:

    Marriage is between a man and a woman. So whether you are a man or a woman you already have the right to get married. You just don't have the right to redefine marriage--and diminish what marriage is.

    Conclusion:

    The guilty take the truth to be hard, but the truth shall set you free. No one does us any favors by letting us wallow in sin. Happiness will never be found in Satan's imitations, no matter how close the mirage. The freedoms and rights to gain full happiness are already available to all; It is sad when we don't choose to take it.

  • Hiding something
    April 4, 2008 6:34 a.m.

    Those who simply cannot get beyond this issue are not secure with their own sexuality and probably would be much better off trying to find out why this is.

  • Momof3
    April 4, 2008 7:23 a.m.

    As a lesbian mother of 3, and a woman with a real and personal relationship with the Lord, I thank all of you who are able to approach this issue with a thinking mind and a loving heart.

    To those of you who disagree with me, my lifestyle, and my family - you have every right to believe the way you believe and live the way you choose to live, please allow me the same. The ONLY One who knows all, will be my final judge -and yours.

    Peace to all of you.

  • Rulan
    April 4, 2008 9:17 a.m.

    Amazing how many people on here serve God as an adviser. Some of the things you quote him as saying, not saying, doing, not doing can't all be true as they're polar opposites.

    I think he he referred to you when he said "I know them not".

  • Anonymous
    April 4, 2008 9:22 a.m.

    Why are people so afraid of homosexuals. Are you afraid that they are going to break into your home and redecorate? Why the homophobia. When I was single I was like "more women for me." As a married man with children, I do not fear a homsexual running off with my wife. I do fear the pedophile but there is a difference between pedophile. I would not encourage my child into that lifestyle it is a hard one, as society does not accept it. I always have felt that people who are homophobic have homosexual tendancies that they are scared of. I am Mormon, however I love my children so much that as adults if they were to choose that lifestyle I would still love them the same. I truly believe Heavenly father loves them the same way I love my children. It is not your call to judge. Leave it in Heavenly Fathers hands.

  • Already spoken
    April 4, 2008 10:11 a.m.

    To Mom of 3...Christ has already spoken on this issue. You are just choosing to ignore it. We all are sinners so that is nothing new. We all choose commandments we obey and willfully and unwillfully, disobey others. We just don't get to choose the consequence. Go read Mark 10 about Christ's words on marriage.

    Rulan...maybe you could expand a little bit on your observations? It would be helpful if you listed the contradictions of Christ's words so we know what you are referring to. It's just helpful in the discussion.


    Anonymous as usual gets the debate wrong. The debate isn't that anyone is "afraid" of homosexuals. The debate is whether or not the behavior is right or wrong. I really don't care if you are Mormon or not, because it has nothing to do with the debate either.

    According to scripture, the behavior is wrong and should be turned away from. Also, if you are a parent, then you will understand that one can love their children very much and not agree with or approve of their child's behavior.

    Sure, there are people who hate homosexuals just like there are people who hate (fill in the blank)

  • Already spoken 2
    April 4, 2008 10:26 a.m.

    Continued.... It is not possible to love the individual and not approve of the person's behavior? Sure it is. You make that judgment everyday.

    You say a lifestyle that society doesn't accept. I'd say it's a behavior that Christ doesn't accept and has told us not to embrace. I always find it interesting how people can completely distance themselves from scripture that doesn't coincide with their own mortal thinking.

    However, Christ told us that His ways are higher than ours and His thoughts are greater than ours.

    The rest of your post is ridiculous and without merit or foundation. In actuality it is just plain stupid.

    Heavenly Father loves everyone, that's why you are on this earth. However, He doesn't like it when His children disobey His commandments.

    It is our responsibility to make judgments everyday. To say otherwise is showing a lack of knowledge about scripture and life. If your neighbor is a known killer of young children, would you allow your child to go play at their house? Of course not. But why are you judging him?

    Homosexuality is a behavior that is not congruent with the teachings of Christ. Plain and simple. Live them or not!

  • re: Same Freedoms
    April 4, 2008 11:48 a.m.

    Amen, amen, amen!!!

    Marriage is not going to redefined just because a few people want it to be so it goes along with their way of life.

    Amen about the guilty taketh the truth to be hard. Anyone with half a brain should realize and use their common sense that it's a man and woman who make a family and have kids...there is just no other possible way. Period.

    Personally, I think all gays should move to an island and they can make their own laws and we no longer have to worry about our kids watching such wayward ways of life.

  • Theocracy
    April 4, 2008 11:48 a.m.


    You contradict your self.
    You say,
    The debate isn't that anyone is "afraid" of homosexuals. The debate is whether or not the behavior is right or wrong. I really don't care if you are Mormon or not, because it has nothing to do with the debate either.

    But later on you state that,
    According to scripture, the behavior is wrong and should be turned away from.

    So isnt scripture part of a religion and isnt mormonism a religion so you really dont make yourself clear on that. Religion shouldnt have any saying on this what if god didnt even exist or have anything to do on this matter where would you be then? And if your so religious how can you judge someone when you know that god and jesus are the only ones who can.

    How will we redefine the meaning of marriage the concept of marriage is two people who are in love. And marriage has already been killed by people who get married for 56 hours then get a divorce so how can we destroy it by letting two people who are in love show it?

  • jane
    April 4, 2008 12:29 p.m.

    I am a member of the religious majority here but I could care less what the gays are doing in their personal lives. They are not affecting my family or my family values. When my kids grandmother went through a "gay phase" a few years back all I needed to know is that she is a good woman and she loves my kids.

  • To Theocracy
    April 4, 2008 12:46 p.m.

    Sorry for the confusion. To answer your question, I'd be right where I am now. Why?

    "For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God."

    Each of us knows what is right and wrong so choose accordingly.

    However, their is a God, always has been, always will be. I hope you learn more of God's word and follow it and understand it.

    The way has been set forth by God. It's there for you to follow and be a part of...plain, simple, easy to understand. None of the arguments mean anything because they are contrary to the word of God. And anything contrary to the will of God is against God. We can't serve 2 masters.... right?

  • RE;To Theocracy
    April 4, 2008 1:30 p.m.

    I am LDS and Gay and i know God still loves me no matter what happens. The word of god has been changed and made impure by man. Through out the ages of time the bible has been translated into different languages and by different people. If we were to follow the word of god, people would be stoned out in the street. The world would be different than it would today.
    Times change for a reason. There is always a solution to problems to, IE: over popluation of the world, it might not be in the bible of how god planned the solution but it is meant to be by god because back then there wasnt as many people on the earth as there are today.
    And how do you know what god is thinking today he has not released a current version of the bible within the last 2000 years has he?

  • To Theocracy
    April 4, 2008 2:17 p.m.

    You are absolutely correct; God does love you. I certainly have never said that He doesn't. I will say that if you are acting on your homosexual behavioral urges, then He is very disappointed in your choice to sin. Just as He is when I make a choice to sin; whatever it is.

    Thou shalt not commit adultery/fornication.

    Leave mother and father and cleave unto thy wife.

    I have studied tremendously the origins of the New Testament. I could refer numerous books and scholarly papers for you to read.

    That still doesn't give you or me an excuse to ignore the commandments. If you are LDS, then surely you've read the same commandments in the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants.

    YOu want a current version of the Bible? Well, listen to conference this weekend. Tell me what His prophet and apostles tell us. Go read all that has been said about fidelity.

    There is not such thing as over population. It is a lie spread by selfish people who don't understand the plan of happiness created by God.

    There is no justification for sin; we truly deceive ourselves with self-justification. Christ will tell us you should've obeyed.

  • Anonymous
    April 4, 2008 3:40 p.m.

    With the Romney campaign, I was shocked at the level of religous intolerance toward LDS people. After reading these blogs I can see that we are as intolerant of others as others are to us. Christ said, "I the Lord will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men." I don't see an appendage to that saying (except homosexuals.) LDS people are getting back exactly what they are putting out. Love God and your fellow men (gay or straight again, not mentioned.) I have known plenty of LDS guys when in the singles ward that I know were gay. I felt so sorry for them because they seemed so self critical, please have some compassion and stop beating them up. They do a better job of that themselves.

  • Anonymous
    April 4, 2008 3:59 p.m.

    A quick perusal of these posts might indicate that there are some Mormons that love God and hate everybody else.

  • Anonymous
    April 4, 2008 4:22 p.m.

    I wish people would start remembering that it is not our job to judge others. You don't have to accept sin but it's God's job to judge, not ours.

  • re Anonymous | 4:22 p.m.
    April 4, 2008 5:49 p.m.

    Point out who is judging please....

  • Anonymous
    April 5, 2008 7:25 a.m.

    "Gay 'agenda' targeted" should be enough to indicate there is some serious judgement going on.

  • Dear Anonymous
    April 5, 2008 12:40 p.m.

    I sure wish we all could be as righteous and virtuous as you. You are the beacon of knowledge and compassion. Your example each day on these pages lets us all know that you have never, ever judged anyone for doing anything.

    I only wish that I could live up to your wonderful example of uplifting words and comments each day.

    Let us all follow Anonymous and his fantastic lead in all we do each day. Thanks for showing us how to live our lives each day and do things for those with whom we don't agree on behavior.

    If you have children, I bet they are perfect and you have never corrected them in their behavior. I'd sure love to interview them to see how they were able to go through your home without being taught the virtue of living a moral and obedient life.

    Again, thanks for your example each day in uplifting comments and without judging those with whom you disagree.

  • Re: Dear Anonymous
    April 5, 2008 1:45 p.m.

    Ha ha, that's so funny. You don't even know that Anonymous 4:22 is a different person than Anonymous 7:25. I have children and am bringing them up in the teachings of the Dominant Utah church. I remember studying the scriptures and reading something about how God can judge us but we can't judge others. And oh my gosh! How dare you judge my children! What are they doing right this second? They are spending a Saturday afternoon in the art room coloring with magic markers together and planning a birthday party for their stuffed animals. Immoral stuff indeed. I don't even let them watch pg movies unless I know they are clean. But I'm not going to teach them to judge others. I wasn't raised in the Church and I have gay relatives so I need to approach people who don't believe the same as I with kindness and compassion.

  • Anonymous
    April 5, 2008 1:43 p.m.

    Judging people is purely a neocon thing.
    It makes people feel oh, so much better to pass judgement on others.
    Makes them forget about the war. Makes them forget about the economy. Makes them forget about their ideology that got us into the divisive mess we are in today to begin with.
    But, (as they like to brag) Right is right! So don't disagree with them and everything will be just hunky-dory. :>

  • Anonymous
    April 5, 2008 2:11 p.m.

    Conservatives are judgemental and adore punishment.
    Progressives believe in live-and-let-live.

    Which ideology do you think will overcome the other?

  • To "Already Spoken"
    April 5, 2008 4:58 p.m.

    You sound like you are someone that believes everything the Bible says. Do you have slaves? Do you have sacrifices? Do you consider women as second class citizens? I doubt it.
    Bible believing people need to learn the difference between lifesyles thousands of years ago and ours. Of course their books are going to sound different! But religions pick and choose what is appropriate for them. Unfortunately, many people choose discrimination of gay people because what they don't understand threatens them.

  • Dear Anon and mom
    April 5, 2008 5:17 p.m.

    To the mom who is raising her children in the LDS faith... good for you. I didn't judge your children, you are. You are supposedly teaching them that there is right and wrong. So you are teaching them to judge. If you aren't teaching them that, then you aren't teaching them the LDS gospel.

    To Anon....what can anyone say. Your comments are always just silly and ridiculous. The venom that comes from your words is incredible. What you say? Have you ever read your judging of those conservatives who post here? Yep, you are judging...nice work my friend.

    As for which ideology will overcome, it will be the one that most closely resembles the teachings of Christ and that is one where right and wrong is taught and wrong is to be avoided. So you make the decision.

    If you actually knew your own liberal platform you'd know that liberals are the most judgmental people around. They love to put everyone in a class so 'they' in their infinite wisdom can come to the rescue.

    Hillary thinks you are an idiot. That's why she want's your money to do with it what she wants. Your ignorance is astounding...