Some question granting of temple rights, baptism
I agree. I want my government to protect it's borders and it's
people from financial drainage and terrorist threat, but I want my church to
love and accept all of God's children equally. I do not see any entanglement
between the two.
I think church members need to stop treating people who have fled the
oppresion of foriegn lands where the United States has been funding oppresion as
sinners. Remember Elder Uchtdorf's family fled East Germany illegally.
I think we need to advocate a compasionate policy where we not only say
in Church that all men are equally God's children but embrace this idea in our
politics. Why is it ok for us to live in a rich and prosperous nation and deney
our borhters and sisters these blessings. I would say that anti-immigration
feelings are anathema to the gospel. They are built on the theory that we have
more rights to the blessings we recieve than others of God's children. I reject
these ideas and think we should end all restrictions on immigration based on
quotas. It may be true that some people should be kept out because
they are dangers to our society. However, always remember that we are not after
Jorge Bin Laden. Even here in Metro-Detroit where many of our immigrants are
from Iraq other mid-east nations I do not fear immigrants. The most recent wave
of Iraqi refugees tend to be Christians fleeing violence in Iraq.
Christ criticized the pharisees who put obedience to law above compassion/
charity for others. We are blessed to live in this great, very rich country.
The lesson of the scriptures is to be compassionate to those who are not so
blessed. That appears to be the message of the representatives of the various
churches referenced in the article. I don't know but I suspect when the final
judgment spoken of in the scriptures comes around, the level of a person's
compassion for others will be more important than the level of his/her obedience
to the immigration law of the land.
What Elder Jensen seems to not know is that trespassing is a crime! If someone
comes into my house uninvited you can be sure I'm going to call the police and
have them removed from my home. The LDS church doesn't really seem to be serious
about its members "obeying the law".
I'm a Mormon who hires illegals for my cleaning business. I do it for the
money, but now I can see it as compassionate, too.
When LDS illegal aliens use counterfeit S.S. cards and fraudulent ID's to obtain
employment, lie to their employers alleging that they are in the country legally
and have permission to work, and live a life of duplicity, then as a fellow
Church member I have serious problems with these folks being accepted with open
arms as though everything is fine and we're supposed to just look the other way.
We CAN'T have it both ways and a lot of TOUGH LOVE is needed NOW! Go back home
and get your situation straight!
Thinking about the changes I have made in my life since my baptism 31 years ago,
I see that being "squeaky clean" at the recommend interview has been a positive
force in my life. I have been taught that if I disagree with a law, I first of
all obey it and then I try to change it. Can it be justified that "the law just
isn't fair or right"? I really doubt that "it seemed right at the time" will
fly on judgment day. My wife and I have served 2 Spanish missions and we love
Latin people. I hate to think about sending people back into a situation where
the big worry in a person's life is how to get enough money to feed my family.
But does that justify breaking the law? I think our compassion should inspire
us to do something more than "do nothing".
comes in the form of helping others help themselves and improve their inherent
situation. The perpetual education fund was established so that those in less
fortunate circumstances can get an education and improve their lives and the
general standard of living in thier home countries. If we allow them to come
here and stay here illegally, all we are doing is facilitating sycophancy, which
helps neither the sycophant or their home country.
If our elder brother Jesus Christ praised the kind deed of a smaratan to help a
Jew who was in need. I See no reason why we shouldnt baptize illegal immigrants
who are hard working and responsible and believe the same value as us. Is this
question posted only for discussion or trying to divide us in the name of
privilege?Steven Yu Canada
I agree that we must be compassionate in our approach but I also agree that the
law must be followed. Therefore, if we arrest illegal immigrants we can treat
them compassionately as we deport them. While they are here we can be civil as
well as stepping up to help in time of disaster and true need but they must
understand that if they are arrested they must accept that they are returning to
their home.Compassion does not mean you have to disregard the law.
It does mean that we treat them with respect. The Church is right that it is
the government who needs enforce the law and we the people are the force behind
the government. Therefore, we have the right and obligation to voice our
concerns to the government and demand action be taken on the illegal immigration
issue. That stance is within the letter and spirit of the law, but we can do it
without rancor and vitriol towards those who are illegally here.
As far as Bizman is concerned, he is breaking the law because his employees are
to provide documentation they are here legally and have been granted the legal
status to be able to work. I have worked in human resources and know the
documents that must be shown.Therefore, Bizman, you are breaking the
law and should be subject to the current laws and fines that are appropriate.
If you are Mormon, you cannot say that you are dealing truthfully in all that
you do because you know your are breaking the law.
Fortunately, sometimes we as members of the Lord's church must take a stand on
right vs. wrong. Many instances from the scriptures confirm this fact.
Sometimes this choice puts the Lord's people at odds with the local law. Pres.
Joseph Smith and Pres. John Taylor come to mind in relatively recent times. So
does Abraham and Moses from the Old Testament. Peter, Paul, John and the rest
of Christ's original 12 come to mind. All of these prophets gave their lives in
defense of what's right. The blessings of having a living prophet is very
evident in this case. As Moses advised ancient Isreal, "Look and Live!"
I understand that many of the illegals come to our country because they want to
start a better life. But to come to any country without going through the
proper and legal process is not a productive way of starting a better life. I
am a member also and take my temple vows and interview with my Bishop and Stake
President very serious. Obeying the law and not commiting any illegal act is
part of living in accordance with our Father In Heaven and the church. Those
that want to join our church that are illegal should be guided and counciled
through caring and compassion so they understand they should do what is right.
I do have compassion for those. We are all Gods childern and we love and
Bizman is being sarcastic. It's obvious. Therefore, your answer is less of a
higher-ground reprimand and more of point for laughter. Sorry dude. You got
I'm a devout Mormon, but cannot fathom how the Church can logically say "we
believe in honoring. . .the law," but not THIS law of immigration. Compassion is
irrelevant is determining if one will "honor (i.e., obey) the law."
Rationalization is such a sweet thing when it we can use it to justify our
positions. Illegal live here illegally and dishonestly. They're duplicitous
lives affect my life without any choice of mine to be compassionate. As a
former ex-communicated member who struggled to get back into the church and who
is now a member of a bishopric, I have a real problem with members picking and
choosing which commandments they deem important or not. If a person is living
dishonestly, breaking the law, and getting advantage to the detriment of others,
they should not (in my opinion) have access to a temple recommend. That should
be reserved for those who are striving for righteousness in all things. What
ever happened to the Absolute Truths that President Kimball used to so
eloquently speak of?
I do not live in Utah. In our state, most of the publicized crimes we hear about
(rape, DUI, burglary, assault etc.) are committed by LEGAL immigrants. I guess
they figure since they are legal, they can get away with this kind of behavior.
Illegals live below the radar, trying to stay out of the authority's notice.
Those we know are kind, helpful, law abiding, very hard working and take care
of their families. They rarely if ever seek medical treatment for fear of being
discovered. The one doctor I know who treats them, charges them on a sliding
scale according to their income. If EVERYONE in America were charged this way,
there would not be all this offended cry about illegals obtaining free services.
There are plenty of Legal Americans, who do not pay anything for services
either. All should pay according to their ability to pay. I commend the
LDS Church for putting compassion at the top of the list.
As a former attorney and legal expert, Elder Jensen LIKENED illegal immigration
to CIVIL trespass. In other words, (1) it was an analogy, and (2) civil
trespass is different from criminal trespass. I imagine he was using this
analogy to compare the moral effect.
This doesn't seem complicated to me. The worthiness questions at baptism and
for recommends place the accountability squarely on the individual, where it
belongs. I agree the church's mission doesn't include the enforcement of
governmental laws. If someone lies to their bishop and gets away with it they
will eventually answer for it. I know a family where the husband, an illiegal
alien, joined the church and got married. The couple decided to do it right so
he went back to his homeland and they were separated for the two years it took
to gain legal status and come back. Tough but I agree with them that it was the
right way to handle the situation.
Acts 10:28 >> New American Standard Bible (1995)And he said
to them, "You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to
associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I
should not call any man unholy or unclean."Why do Christians have
such a hard time reconsiling what they feel is socially convenient with the
teachings of Christ? Because they know in their hearts that God has not placed
a huge mission field in our back yards without a higher purpose and degree of
accountability for the souls we affect with our words and actions.God doesn't want us to live in chaos, and thus has given us laws and
government. But he also expects much of us with our blessed nation - not the
least of which is that we judge men by the content of their hearst... the same
way we are judged by Him. So it is not a huge dilemma that we
should ammend our hearts and laws to fulfill our purpose and role as a
"Judeo-Christian" nation. If you're not a missionary, then you're a
As much as I get angered at the undocumented that has hit and run my car twice
this year, and as frustrated as they make me, I agree with the church. This is
a world wide church without borders. Let them be baptized, they go home and
help continue to establish the kingdom in their own lands.I am very
much against illegal immigration, but I think the church should take a neutral
on this. Good thing we are lead by a living prophet!
I can appreciate your fervent desire to obey the law, but have you ever
considered if a particular law is moral in itself? Just because it exists in the
books does not mean it is beyond reproach. This country's immigration laws _are_
atrocious. They are the broken remains of a corpse of law that hurts everyone
much more than it helps anyone.We desperately need a comprehensive
reform that recognizes not only the economic necessity of orderly immigration,
but also the human dignity of those that the current "system" has failed as
well.I guess, in the final analysis, when you distill your comments
we come to this simple question: would you have been the one to bump Rosa Parks
from her seat? (She was breaking the law after all.) Sad to say, it sounds like
you would have.
Who Would Jesus Deport?
I guess I'd better go talk to my Bishop because last time I went to the temple I
was late and was speeding, which is breaking the law. But isn't that okay
because I was just trying to do the Lords work?
I home teach a lady who is a lead prosecuting attorney for our county. She
stated on Monday that at least 70% of our violent crime (across our entire
state)is committed by hispanics, most of whom are here illegally. We all pay a
huge price for those who come here illegally. And every one of the adults who
crosses our borders knows that they are breaking our laws to do it. I wonder
what the church would counsel an LDS border agent? Don't stop them because this
is really more of a civil issue and its just not right for us to keep them from
crossing? Of course the church is not an enforcement agent, but its members
right now are left scratching their heads trying to find consistency in this
policy. Perhaps it would be easier if we suspended the 12th article of faith and
the temple question that deals with honesty. True we have all done things that
are wrong. But we repent of those things and move on. The illegals are here in a
constant state of wrongness.
I doubt Mr. Jensen has much contact with typical illegal immigrants. No doubt
there are salt-of-the-earth, church-going families. But does he also consider
the gang members? Does he read the news and see the disproportionate crime rates
committed by this group? Has he been in two accidents w/ uninsured, illegal
immigrants who gave false information (as I have)? Does he live in Rose Park,
Glendale or Ogden? I doubt it. It seems that Mr. Jensen, no matter how well
intentioned, is out of touch with the practicalities driving this legislation.
To live and work in this country illegally you have to lie and be deceitful. You
have to lie to your employer and use a fraudulent/stolen SS#. And the LDS Church
is okay with this? I'm puzzled by these Church leaders who are saying I have to
live the commandments and not lie, cheat, or steal. But, if you are an illegal
alien then it's okay. Illegal aliens can do whatever they want and they'll be
welcomed with open arms. Outrageous!
How many temples would be needed if every LDS member was completely honest in
how they answered temple recommend questions? Before we point out the visible
faults in others, lets take a moment to reflect on our own short comings in
being obedient and disciples of Christ.
I'm sorry to say but, Elder Jensen is wrong. Trespassing is trespassing, whether
it's civil or criminal. What is the action that should be taken with
trespassers? They should be removed from the area in which they are trespassing
and placed back in their place of origin. That is VERY compassionate and humane
if you ask me. Try to be an immigrant from Guatemala and trespass into Mexico
via the southern border, you'll most likely be shot and killed on the spot. If
they want to attend church fine but I don't think they should be baptized here
or given temple recommends because they are living a life of lies and deceit
(not very "Christlike"). If they want to go to temple, there's a nice one in
Mexico City they can attend.
The line "'This isn't the church's issue,' he said (Elder Pingree)'This is a
government's issue'"What kind of logic is this? How about rape, murder,
and molesting? Okay that is the extreme, but stealing isn't. They are stealing
my children's future. Church issue or government issue?
To deprive Mexico the prosperity of having all these hard working people who
left shows a lack of compassion for our neighbors south of the border. Wouldn't
we show greater compassion by encouraging them to return home and help make
Mexico blossom?Anything less seems quite selfish and short sighted
If your child's future is landscaping, housekeeping, and work in the service
industry, tell your kid to get some more education and then he'd have a future.
I read the deseret news each day to be part of the community in Utah, I would
like to live and work in Salt Lake but I can't. I would if it was legal so my
view is how can someone who lies to there bishop can attend the temple.The church does need to change it's policy
1. For years the Church knowingly broke the law regarding Polygamy and even
formed its own militia in defense of that. This is no longer Brigham Young's
wild-west kingdom but don't be surprised that certain spiritual matters may seem
to trump the law particularly controversial one's like immigration. 2. The "SLC Church" can actually be a rather liberal/compassionate Church on
many issues. Immigration is one in which the thinking from SLC appears to lean
very left. Even other social issues are more left leaning than the typical
evangelical rehtoric. But the "Local Ward Church" tends to lean much more
conservative and judgemental and rigid. In other words, the general membership
often is much less compassionate and liberal than I think our SLC leaders tend
to be. Perhaps it is because our general authorities have reached the point of
true compassion and love while members still mire around in the muck of wanting
to sign off on everyone else's temple recommends.3. I think the Mitt
Romney who ran for MA Governor was actually very much in line with compassionate
but value based SLC leadership thinking. Too bad he felt he had to move to the
judgemental evangelical George Bush right.
As a law enforcement officer of 20 years, I never had a problem reconciling
compassion for my fellow man with upholding the law. The law must be supported
and sustained first and foremost, and there is help available for those who
choose to change their circumstances and submit to the law. What bothers me is
that the church wants no role in enforcing immigration since it is a government
issue (which is as it should be), but then claims the right to suggest a soft
approach on immigration law directed specifically to our lawmakers on the
grounds that it is a moral issue. Moral issues can loosely be attributed to
just about any legal topic, so where does one draw the line? JMHO, but I think
we are riding a slippery slope when religious leaders of any denomination
address government representatives on behalf of a church with the intent of
influencing policy, no matter how subtle.
Stealing our future, stealing our resources: 1) Education; why are we teaching
english as a second language? 2) Health care; why do I have to pay such high
premiums? 3) Taxes; who gets paid under the table? & 4) Culture; When was the
last time you when a day and heard english only?I work in the
construction trades and love it. Although, I do not like seeing my wage fall.
The construction & service industries will survive w/o illegals because there
are people like me that are willing to get their hands dirty.
I struggled with this while serving in a Spanish branch. I still don't know how
someone is able to say they are honest when they break the law for financial
gain, but I finally concluded that was between them and the Lord.Personally the hardest part about serving in the branch was that I wanted to
help these people find better jobs, but I was unwilling to ask anyone to break
the law to give them jobs, or even to employ them myself with odd jobs when they
were out of work.As to whether or not the policy of the church is
correct, I can't say. Its not my stewardship, and I'm having enough trouble
looking after my own to be too critical of someone else's handling of theirs. I
suspect that if I had been setting policy I would have opted for close
questioning in interviews and fairly rigid enforcement. But I have also seen a
few people progress after baptism who probably wouldn't have done anything
outside of the church, and who I probably would have excluded. The couple I'm
thinking of are now planning to return home once they get their affairs in
Illegal immigrants are not criminals. They are not trespassers. Nobody gets
thrown in jail because they have crossed a border, except in communist or
paranoid countries. Illegal immigrants have not followed the outlined rules to
become "documented." They are here without permission. There will always be
the discussion about their contribution or damage. If people are able to get
from one country to another with little effort - or insufficient opposition,
then it would be important to shore-up the borders. Priority of status should
not happen just because someone has breached the borders. A line is a line.
Perhaps we should not over react to the "illegal" tag. Maybe we should be more
balanced in our approach. Since punishment has never been a part of this
program, then we shouldn't start now. Since citizenship offers benefits, along
with the obligations, then rewarding "undocumented" people should be avoided.
Any clerk in the church would point out that we don't ask for drivers license,
SS cards, birth certificates, etc for proof of citizenship or even who they
really are when they get baptized. The MLS doesn't have a field for citizenship
either. This is a responsibility of each individual to be honest. If a member
of the bishopric or stake presidency becomes aware of someone's illegal status
then we are talking about a situation that I think the church needs to take a
stance on. Counseling them on the law and potentially denying them a recommend
until they are law abiding in this regard is definetely something they should
consider. But to be clear it currently is not a requirement of the church to
specifically ask about "legal status" and if all the other questions do not
prompt the member to answer in a way contrary to the standard then the
interviewer has no choice but to approve them (IMHO they should deny the
opportunity to be interviewed IF they are aware of an illegal status). Many
states allow for "undocumented people" to have licenses why should priveleges in
a church be different?
President Marion G. Romney said that Latter-day Saints need to be willing to
live the laws of the government in which they live. Those that keepeth the laws
of God hath no need to beak the laws of the land. As a former law enforcement
officer, I had the unique opportunity to observe that breaking the laws of the
land usually also involves breaking Gods laws. It seems especially hard to be
honest when breaking the law.
The church is only being consistent to its scriptures regarding immigration: 6 Wherefore, I, Lehi, prophesy according to the workings of the Spirit which
is in me, that there shall none come into this land save they shall be brought
by the hand of the Lord.
I would question whether or not my faith were Christian if it took an official
stand against illegal immigration. As christians we are instructed to obey the
law. However, early christians disobeyed Roman law by not offering sacrifices to
Roman gods and these people were real saints. What if a law is immoral? If you
refuse to sacrifice your first-born child, even if it were a state law, can you
get a temple recommend? And when you go to get said temple recommend, does your
Bishop ask you if you've gotton away with speeding or J-walking recently? Does
he make you go to the DMV and turn yourself in? I'm not mormon, but I'm guessing
not. And to the reader who said that as members of "God's Church" you must
differentiate between what is "right" and "wrong" as if being here illegally
inorder to give your family a better life is akin to murder or rape, I must
agree with you on one point. What is wrong? It is wrong to enjoy a prosperous,
happy lifestyle while preventing others from doing so. I think Jesus would
agree. I commend the Mormon church for taking a Christian stand in this matter.
Before standing in judgement, why not try putting yourself in the shoes of
illegal immigrants? Imagine living in a home without even the most basic of
necessities, no money for food or clothing. And imagine having children to take
care of on top of this. If you saw your children suffering, and you knew of a
way to end that suffering, who among us would not take that path? The vast
majority of these immigrants are hard-working and they take the jobs no one else
here even wants. I completely agree that the system needs to change, but please
don't forget that these are people in serious need or they would not be here.
It is not our place to judge. It is our place to help.
Mr. Jensen: The LDS church speaks out of both sides of its mouth. I could not
handle the duplicity any longer, and this is one of the main reasons I left the
LDS church.It goes something like this: We believe
in...obeying, honoring and sustaining the law EXCEPT if we are Mexican and can
pay tithing down the road, or at least add to the membership numbers on the
rolls. All other nationalities should file paperwork and wait in line for years.
Yes, bishop, I'm honest in all my dealings (even though I jumped the
border to get to the United States, refuse to file paperwork and pay files
fees--so I'm stealing from the government, but that doesn't count, does it? Oh
yeah, and I steal SSNs and write false information on my I-9s so I can work a
reputable job and make better money. I don't pay income taxes, but even if I
did, it would be money I don't warrant because I'm not legally allowed to be
here.Gee, thanks for my shiny new recommend, bishop! Awesome. Now I
can become bishop one day and deny someone else a recommend for drinking a beer.
The church doesn't care about their immigration status, they're just potential
converts. Since when has the church limited who it would baptize? Think of
them as numbers, not illegals. Just numbers to be added to the big book in the
sky, I mean the church office building. Numbers, numbers, just numbers. My
Dad's a mission president in South America, please don't tell me I don't know
about the "numbers"...
illegals should do the right thing if they want to be baptized. go home
strengthen the church elsewhere. come back when you have papers. its not hard.
do the right things. if you want to be 100 percent free from sin
obey the laws of your country,we will show compassion for you regardless. but
please make it easier on everybody go and do things right.its like
the family who needs assistance year after year. life is hard we will help but
please fix your situation.
A Few Points | 10:22 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008 1. For years the Church knowingly
broke the law regarding Polygamy and even formed its own militia in defense of
that. This is no longer Brigham Young's wild-west kingdom but don't be surprised
that certain spiritual matters may seem to trump the law particularly
controversial one's like immigration. Not a bad entry over all but
the comment above should be ammended if we are to be accurate.1. For
years members of the Church knowingly broke the law regarding Polygamy by
continuing marriages already conscecrated after the law changed. During the time
that polygamy was practiced in midwestern states it was not against the law in
the U.S., while they were in Utah and still practicing with approval of the
Church they were not a state and therefore not bound by the U.S. laws. Checking
historical facts will show that the Church banning polygamy was a requirement
before they could receive statehood, so therefore the Church was not breaking
the law, even though some members did.BTW - the militia was not
formed because of polygamy but rather to protect us from persecution and
extermination orders unlawfully enacted.
I am a decendent of illegal immigrants. My earlist ancestor arrived at
Plymouth, Massachusetts in 1621. Now we know how the native
It is easy to tell them to go home and obey the laws. It is easy to tell them
the are bad people stealing your hard earned money. The illegal immigrants work
twice as hard as you. I think all of you would run across the border if your
family was starving to death. I am not a Mormon but family is important to me
and I thought that was a major part of the Mormon belief. I put my families
well being ahead of anything. All of you who have so much hate for the Hispanic
people should be ashamed to call yourself Christians. If they can not go to
your temple for being illegal you should not be allowed in your temple for being
hate filled people.
Leave law enforcement to the authorities. Leave personal worthiness to the
individual. We all know who we're ultimately accountable to. It's up to each
person to do the right thing. The church just needs to "teach gospel principles
and let them govern themselves."
Most illegals do not make enough to pay income tax. They still pay property tax
(they have to pay rent, right?). They still pay sales tax. Most are uninsured.
The tax and premium issues are largely myths. What is their crime? Trying
to feed their families. If I were injured and my 13 year old son decided the
best way to get help for me was to put me in a car and drive me to the hospital,
should he be excommunicated for breaking the law? No? Okay, maybe
disfellowshipped then?It is easy to judge when you haven't had to make the
tough decision. Remember we are all sinners. There are only a few sins that
immediately disqualify you for baptism or a temple recommend.Note Church
policy, however on missionaries. An illegal alien cannot be recommended as a
Bishops work through the spirit also, but some may not be as in tune as others.
I'm not a bishop, but if I lied to the bishop about being worthy to enter the
temple and the bishop doesn't pick up on it, it's not the fault of the bishop.
The liar will be the one who will pay the ultimate penalty. If a bishop knows
first hand that the member is illegal in this country and has a fake pass to be
here, it shouldn't bar the member from membership, but should bar him from the
temple. In this circumstance, I believe the bishop should pay the price also.
All are invited to the temple, but there needs to be a very strong commitment
and the correct standard of living. If the honesty question is being overlooked
by a known illegal, the the question then needs to be disregarded, because it is
a waste of time. For this reason, I'm glad I'm not a bishop yet. But despite it
all, i love the church.
THE WELCOME WAGON IS OPEN!!
It's very funny to me when the LDS church makes a decision like this and all the
cynics and critics of the church officially take it upon themselves to put in
their own opinion. The church is led by incredibly intelligent and inspired men
who unlike politicians don't lie or put out false statements so they can get
elected into office. They usually have far more education and experience in
dozens of matters than does anybody that tries to profess what the church does
A lot of weird logic in this article. "While reiterating the LDS Church is
politically neutral, Elder Jensen noted that immigration is not only a political
issue but a moral and ethical one." First of all the Church is not being
politically neutral and has taken the same political stand as in previous years.
This not a moral or ethical issue, it is a taxpayer, cheap labor, and a law and
order issue. The Utah Legislature has every right to protect its citizens and
taxpayers from the harm caused by illegal immigration.I suppose that
that having a fraudulent ID in your pocket and saying that you are honest with
your fellowman makes sense? Finally, it is a sovereignty issue. Does
the Church interfere with other nations' sovereignty issues? Do they go to
other states and attempt to interfere with legislatures trying to protect their
citizens and taxpayers? No! only in Utah would they attempt such behavior.
Compassion is fine, but compassion isn't going to stop the problem. We can have
compassion for criminals of all types, but that doesn't mean that we should look
the other way and allow the behavior to continue.
As a member of the Church I see now that I may disobey laws. Them leadership is
So Ann Chovie is advocating for the seperation of families. Maybe that is the
best way to do it now, but there is nothing wrong with favoring a change in the
laws. I think we should restructure the laws to allow families to be together.
I can't go to Mexico take a job from a Mexican national, get free health care,
protest, stay forever, or even own land there. But illegal Mexicans can come
into my country and do all of those things with no consequences. There seems to
be something basically wrong with that. Because someone works in the service
industry, or construction trades, does not mean that they don't have a right to
a living wage. Illegal immigrants are keeping wages artificially low in those
sectors, and it's big business, and politicians who are in the pocket of big
business, who allow it.
I agree with Elder Jensen's temperate remarks, despite the fact that I was in an
automobile accident caused by an uninsured, unlicensed, illegal alien young
woman. Just as we cannot lump all illegals into the status of being gangland
murderers or drunk drivers, we cannot lump all of them into the status of being
good, hard-working people simply trying to provide for their families.The Church's position isn't the problem. The problem is a FEDERAL (not state)
government that won't step up and enforce the borders while increasing legal
immigration and guest-worker arrangements.
Elder Jensen's comments were his own as he repeatedly said. He comes from a
good democrat background that cares about the average person and tries to treat
everyone with compassion regardless of circumstances. The church has no policy
on this issue and is not required to ask about immigration status for baptism,
however, that is a result of government legislation that is very confusing and
erratically enforced. Other countries have strict immigration policies, like
Italy and the LDS missionaries there are not able to baptize illegals because
that countries laws do not allow it. If you have a beef with the church's
position in the US, then you should push for stronger, clearer laws regulating
immigration. There is never a need to be insulting as to race or country of
origin to anyone however and that is what I took most from Elder Jensen's
Illegal immigrants, as the name implies, are doing something "ILLEGAL" - they
are violating the laws of the nation. And just as with anyone who violates the
laws of the nation in which they live, they are NOT "being honest in
[their] dealings with their fellowman".Moreover, they are
"supporting, affiliating with, or agreeing with groups or individuals whose
teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints," which officially teaches that we are to be
"subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring,
and sustaining the law" (Pearl of Great Price, Article of Faith 12).Therefore, being an illegal immigrant disqualifies them from Temple
worthiness, and any Church authority who knowingly grants temple recommends to
illegal immigrants is violating Church doctrine as well as acting as an
accessory to a criminal act.These statements by these Church
authorities are repugnant to anyone who believes in the rule of law and the
Constitution of this great nation. They should be chastized and released from
these official positions as representatives of the Church.
I agree with JMHO. We love our Brothers & Sisters but if the borders are not
secure & the magnet that draws illegals here not removed, we will have Mexico in
America, not my choice for a free land.
I find this to be one of the most perplexing problems facing the Church and its
members, legal & illegal. While serving as a missionary in L.A. 37 years ago we
were allowed to teach and baptize worthy individuals though they were in the US
illegally. Then, in 1973 about January, we were counseled to stop baptizing
those who did not have their papers but we could continue to teach them and we
encouraged them to be involved in the L.A. Spanish Branch. We taught a
delightful fellow from Nicaragua named Carlos who, at our invitation continued
to read the Book of Mormon in spite of deep resistance from his immediate family
who were very devout Adventists. We left Carlos with the Book of Mormon and
challenged him to read it. That Sunday as I was gathering people from the foyer
to begin our Sunday School meeting (long before the block) Carlos entered the
doors of the Wilshire Building and shook my right hand; his left hand was
shaking the Book of Mormon at me and with tears in his eyes he said "Este libro
es verdadero"! "Puedan bautizarme?" I had to tell him that I could not.
Have you ever sped? Have you ever changed lanes without signaling? Did you
forget that you are supposed to pay "use taxes" on untaxed stuff you ordered
over the Internet or bought in another state? Ever "California stop" at a stop
sign? Then YOU are a dishonest lawbreaker, too. Maybe you should remove the
mote from your own eye by turning in your recommend before calling for
immigrants to be denied baptism or temple privileges. That isn't your call to
make.Many immigrants are more righteous than you or me when it comes
to the "weightier matters" of the law.And the Church never said it's
OK to break the law. They simply said let's make sure we are being
compassionate in the way we deal with the issue and in the laws we make, and
that the Church isn't the enforcer of immigration policies.There is
nothing inherently wrong with coming to the US without permission. It is only
wrong because the lawmakers made a law saying it is illegal. There's nothing
wrong with asking the lawmakers to be compassionate in the laws they decide to
make that make things "wrong" that would otherwise not be.
I suppose LDS businessmen who hire illegal aliens can now justify doing so with
impunity, even though they are breaking the law. Are these lawbreakers to be
treated with compassion?
Baptism brings the contrite "in the fold" and "on the path." However, temple
privileges are for those who have demonstrated desire, committment, and
sacrifice for the gospel. Under those definitions, it is conceivable that
illegals who so desire and demostrate should get both. However, honesty is one
specifically asked requirement for temple privileges. Moderating one
requirement would seem logically to moderate all requirements. So it would seem
that the Brethern would need to explain clearly what constitues honesty, moral
cleanliness, a full tithe, etc...But then again, should 1930 and 1940
German LDS members have participated in Jewish persecution? (rhetorical) It was
the law for them.One 'illegal' youth lived with 3 families in our ward.
We all liked him very much. When it came time to serve a mission. He knew that
he had to go back with little to no chance to return to the USA. He did.
Personally I was very impressed.
Its about QUANTITY not QUALITY people!
Well, I can see their point to some extent. However, I really have a hard time
with .... if you live in zion you do it this way, if you live in the mission
field you do it this way......I'm not sure I've met a latter day
saint who is always honest in his dealings with his fellow man. Heber C. Kimball
is the one who initiated the temple recommend, not any other source. It has been
passed on by tradition ever since.In other words, its a "policy of
the church" but certainly not Doctrine in any manner whatsoever.What the
church has for policy and for doctrine are quite often Two different animals.
You can't go to Mexico and basically take the country for all it's worth?Just what the heck do you think Americans have been doing in Mexico,
Central America and South America for centuries? Think, United Fruit Company.
Or Panama -- a country carved out of Columbia when Columbia wouldn't give us the
land necessary to build a canal. Or, in the alternative, if we don't
want to do it in Mexico -- we just turn that part of Mexico into the US (i.e.,
Texas and California)!Irony again reigns over reason in the
The government either needs to enforce its laws or change them to something that
they will enforce. Why should a church try to hold its members to a standard
that the government ignores? I feel strongly that citizens of a county should
not be left to decide which laws need to be followed and which laws can be
ignored.I have empathy for all of the people that want to come here
to improve their lives. Many of them are good and hard working people. But our
society maintains order through its laws.When I moved to Texas from
a very expensive city, my auto insurance doubled. Why? Because the uninsured
motorist line item went up so much. It is sad to know that everyone around me
EXPECTS to get hit by an illegal at some point. Government
enforcement is a key. Welcome people from other countries, but allow for
immigration in the law, enforce what is on the books, and do not encourage
people to break the law by rewarding them for coming here the wrong way.
"Remember Elder Uchtdorf's family fled East Germany illegally." However, he entered West Germany legally!!! That is the important point. The
Mexicans who violate our borders are here illegally, and that is what is
important."Why is it ok for us to live in a rich and prosperous
nation and deney (sic) our borhters (sic)and sisters these blessings." So based on your criteria should we allow the population of the whole third
world to enter the United States??? Should US citizens be allowed to vote on
such a proposal, or should we dispense with our representative political system
and adopt your proposed theocracy???
I was intrigued by the following statement by one of the posters above: "I hate
to think about sending people back into a situation where the big worry in a
person's life is how to get enough money to feed my family. But does that
justify breaking the law?"I wondered why it sounded familiar, and
then I remembered: This was Jean Valjean's dilemma in Les Miserables. Stealing
bread to feed his sister's children was illegal - but letting them starve was
morally wrong. So, he stole. Inspector Javert could only see the first part -
breaking the law. I think that Javert would find many kindred spirits in the
discussion on illegal immigration. Truly, our illegal immigration problem is
one of "Les Miserables".
I know a man who was excommunicated from the church for not paying taxes.
That's a federal law that seems unfair. So it is with illegal immigration. The
Church should not look the other way on this. Pingree's attitude that people
should stay in their own country but since they're here we should embrace them
is assnine. Uchtdorfs fleeing East Germany is not the same as mexicans coming
to the US illegally.
Since Elder Jensen equates illegal immigration to civil trespass, let's take the
analogy a little further. Suppose while the Jensen family were away on a church
assignment, some homeless people took up residence in Elder Jensen's back
yard--built a little shack there, moved in their family and friends, ran an
electric line from his house (not to mention cable and maybe telephone) and
maybe "borrowed" some of his food storage items.When Elder Jensen
returned, would he compassionately allow them to remain there, using his
resources? Maybe, but out of respect for the safety and comfort, and financial
security, of his family, it's likely that he would work with appropriate police
authorities, homeless advocates, and other resources to compassionately remove
them from his property and help them get a start elsewhere.Maybe the
compassionate part that we should be considering is how to help illegal
immigrants to get on their feet--once they're BACK IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY. And it
seems that the Church has quite a few resources to do that, and is doing that
now.But I am puzzled why the Church appears to be encouraging the
homeless to take up residence in our backyard.
How many of us forget that our ancestors broke laws to practice polygamy?
Church leaders chose to follow the tenets of their faith instead of the
princicples of the 12th A of Faith. This is not a black and white issue. The
vast majority of illegals come here with good intentions- to work hard and
provide a better life for their children, the same reason our ancestors came to
this country and this valley. If you were in their situation would you come
here for a better life, or continue dwelling in the cycle of poverty, and no
opportunity? Would you want a better life for your children, and do anything
moral to obtain? Is it better to commit a civil trespass, and provide for your
progeny or let your kids suffer and go hungry? What would our ancestors do?
What did they do? They broke the law. Was Brigham Young not a great prophet
who also broke the law?We secure the borders, deport all the illegal
criminals we can, and help in the graceful and compassionate assimulation of
those who are already here.What would Jesus do?
It doesn't seem like allowing baptims should be a problem since this is
supposely only a first step on the road to "exaltation." These would be the kind
of acts that a good Samaritan would provide. On the other hand, I've always
thought that those people that hold temple recommends are those that are only
willing to live by the very highest of spiritual principles. I don't even hold
one myself since I'm not currently a full tithe payer. What becomes interesting
is that if we start making exceptions for breaking one law, such illegal
trespassing, why wouldn't we make exceptions for others. It would allow us to
open us the temples to everyone.
No matter how "global" the Mormon Church is the United States of America is
still a soverign nation!
I am LDS and I see nothing wrong in baptizing an illegal immigrant, although I
do not condone their illegal status. However, entering the temple is another
matter entirely. The interview for a temple recommend asks if the person is
honest in all their dealings. Obviously an illegal immigrant could not
truthfully answer yes to that question, and they should not qualify for a temple
recommend. This is something that needs to be taken seriously by the church,
otherwise they need to be equally lax on the other criteria, such as being a
full tithe payer, or keeping the Word of Wisdom, which would make a mockery of
temple attendance. Anyone hiring illegal immigrants also comes under the
umbrella of not being honest and they too should not qualify for a temple
Jensen seems to be one who just runs off at the mouth. I doubt that he speaks
for the church in most respects. I'm not sure that's his calling. However, if it
is, maybe a better setting apart blessing is in order, and maybe a little more
authority to speak on what the Lord thinks, and not on what the church
thinks.Basically this: IF the First Presidency can't say
it for themselves, why are we Supposing that Jensen Has some Kind of Authority
Here. I don't see him set apart or called as a member of the twelve
or the first presidency.
My question is this.....why are illegal immigrants given resident tuition, but I
as a military member cannot have it? I am stationed here, as a resident of
another state and I have to pay out of state tuition for my kids. I have an
issue with the double-standard.
"What becomes interesting is that if we start making exceptions for breaking one
law, such illegal trespassing, why wouldn't we make exceptions for others. It
would allow us to open us the temples to everyone."Opening up the
temples to everyone?WOW -- What a concept?!?!?!
REMEMBER: I can only hope you're right,in which case, a clarification of
position should be forthcoming very shortly,and a muzzle (figuratively) placed
on Jensens snout at once. What isn't clear in the article,to me anyway, is
whether Jensens pronouncements are his own or if he felt confidant in speaking
for the GA's. Your point is noted and well taken.
How many of you people who say you believe in obeying, honoring and sustaining
the law who are using this as a reson to take a stand against undocumented or
illegal aliens having full privileges in the church are truly always honest in
your obedience to the law? Do you ever speed or break other driving rules? Do
you ever park illegally? Do you ever litter? Have you ever taken anything from
a hotel room?Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
File a lawsuit against Utah for violation of your equal rights.
Would you deny baptism to a person for speeding? At this point, being illegally
here is a misdemeanor and not a felony. If the laws change and government
requirements change, the LDS Church will comply with what is asked. Right now,
the problem is being debated. The acceptance or rejection of illegals has yet
to be determined. Up until the recent light shed upon the problem, it was
winked at. Don't be so hasty to jump on any church or organization that did not
create the situation, but is merely trying to help people in the best way
LET THE CHRUCH SUPPORT THEM ALL FROM CRADLE TO GRAVE IF THEY WANT THEM SO BAD!!
If we have not done any of these things you listed to break the law, does our
opinion that immigration laws need to be enforced have any more value or weight?
Probably not to you so your comment is pointless. Give me a break!
What a cop out of a statement.
Immigration laws is very complicated and it takes a specially trained person to
enforce it properly. One thing that is clear: Illegal immigration is not a mere
misdemeanor. Even a first time offender can be placed in jail for up to 6
months before being deported. Someone who re-enters the country illegally after
being previously deported has committed a FELONY.An illegal
immigrant who lies about their status when they fill out the I-9 employment
paperwork commits perjury when they swear they are eligible to work in this
country. If they use a stolen identity at the same time, it's a felony.If the entire basis of ones life is based on deception and trying to
evade law enforcement, how can someone truly live the gospel and uphold the
basic tenets and articles of faith? I suppose people could hold out hope that
another amnesty might be forthcoming, but does that solve the fundamental
personal honesty problem with these individuals?It's my
understanding that the church excommunicates members convicted for felonies. If
that sentence is later pardoned by a governor/president, does the church
automatically re-instate membership, or would they prefer a complete repentance
Now I can play the game and stay for ever !
Sounds to me like many are ready to leave the Church over a pint of cream.
To Kate,Why isn't the Baptismal interview (and worthiness) just as
important and significant as the Temple recommend? Your double standard is
baseless. Worthiness to be baptized is the same as worthiness to enter the
Temple. Look into it and you will see that I am right.
Looks like illegals have taken over this site. Have fun talking about nothing!
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that
they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among
these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.Isn't that what
the Illegal Immigrants are seeking?We can enforce immigration laws
or make laws that give order to the chaos and allow persons to pursue their
If I civil trespass in front of a LDS temple, will the church use their own
security guards to remove me or call just call the cops!!!!
Elder Jensen was not speaking on his own errand. He was speaking at the call of
President Monson."Jensen, speaking at a forum at Westminster
College, emphasized that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints hasn't
taken a position on any particular legislation. He did say, however, that he was
speaking on behalf of the LDS Church's governing First Presidency."Nice attempt at disavowing someone on the Lord's errand
Is a law really a law if it's not enforced? Jay walking, going 9 mph faster
than the speed limit, swearing in public etc. How can you blame Mexicans for
coming to our country? Look at our actions - we give them driver's licenses,
free health care, we provide government documents in Spanish, we educate their
kids for free, we allow them to sue legal citizens in our courts - just to name
a few. Sure they came "illegally," but we knew what was happening. We could
have stopped them if we felt it was a real need. Post 9/11 is makes
more sense than ever to secure the border and prevent future boarder crossings -
but trying to send people back to Mexico is ridiculous. Our laws say crossing
the boarder is illegal, but our actions encourage it. Out of one side of our
mouth we say "it's illegal" but out of the other side our actions say come and
we'll take care of you. How can you punish Mexican's for their actions - our
actions have condoned their behavior all along.Good for you PJ.
If the temple recommend questions are answered truthfully, an illegal would not
qualify for a recommend. Also, it would be in violation of the Articles of
Here's the thing: immigration isn't going to go away. It's not going to get
easier to enforce. We can sit here and complain about it, or we can try to deal
with it as peaceably as possible. As an LDS church member, I figure if the
church is making a mistake, they are erring on the side of mercy ("For with what
judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged"). The temple recommend worthiness is
self-reported - God will be the final judge, and it's not for us to say what He
will say. Yes, being here is illegal and those who do live in a constant state
of breaking the law. Do we not all live in a constant state of breaking some law
- either of man or of God? If you say no, then congratulations, you're perfect.
The Church teaches its members to keep the law - in whatever country they are
in. The Church does not enforce the law. Does an LDS border patrol agent now
have a moral dichotomy? No, he does his job. In closing, I can't help
but think and wonder about the verse "and the Lamanites shall blossom as the
If I steal a nickel or $1,000,000 bucks, which is worse? They are BOTH stealing.
Stealing is a moral crime in the God's eyes. Only the law sees them as
misdemenor and felony.It's the same principle here. Illegal means
illegal. You people who use moral relativity are missing something
very critical and important. Marlin, you can have their pesos, cuz
I'm done giving you my tithing dollars. Enjoy your compassion and your new
amigos when our country is over run with illegals. Adios estupdido. My church left me. I didn't leave it. It used to be black and white, now it's
gray all over.
I talk to several today who are questioning the law of the land issue. They are
as well contemplating leaving the church. I'm undecided.
Illegals have no respect for the law nor for decency. That is why THEY are the
ones dominating these comments, calling law-abiding citizens "Nazis" and
"inhumane" and "not compassionate".Those who benefit from crime (and
being in our country illegally IS A CRIME), would distort not only the law, but
also the Gospel of Jesus Christ in order to justify their illegal and immoral
actions.If you cannot abide by the laws of this land, then you
should have no protection from them; you should not benefit from them; you
should not be allowed the freedom of speech that is guaranteed by our First
Amendment - because you are Law-Breakers!If you want to get
religious, fine. Then you and Mr. Jensen (Amen to his priesthood) should read
and understand this: "that which is governed by law is also preserved by law and
perfected and sanctified by the same. That which breaketh a law, and abideth not
by law, but seeketh to become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin,
and altogether abideth in sin, cannot be sanctified by law, neither by mercy,
justice, nor judgment. Therefore, they must remain filthy still. (D&C 88:34-35)
wow, members of the church judging others? unbelievable. Don't worry so much
about what illegals are doing, or how the church is handling them. The same as
how you wouldn't judge anyone for anything else or how the church handles them.
Look within, first take the beam out of thine own eye. Trust me, you are not
well spiritually if you are worried about other peoples recommends. Look
inward, judge yourself, better yourself, have faith that the Lords church can
handle every individual the way the Lord would want them handled. I can't
believe there are members of the church who would actually judge another based
on immigration status or any other sin. Let he who is without sin cast the
I remember sitting on the lawn of the Sao Paulo Temple a quarter century ago and
looking up to se the huge Brazilian flag flying overhead. Although I had served
a mission in Uruguay and had lived in both Mexico and Spain, I became choked up
with emotion on the realization that the Lord's church is a worldwide church. As
the Savior commanded, "Go ye unto all the world..."Sometimes the world is
next door. Early Saints ran afoul of the law with illegal plural
marriages...but God's law has always trumped man's law. When the pioneers went
to the Salt Lake valley they also were 'trespassing' into Mexican territory. The question regarding the undocumented is a political one, not a spiritual
one. Don't fret it.
I love the simple truths of the gospel. One of those simple truths is that we
believe in being subject to rulers and magistrates and in honoring and obeying
the law. I do not believe it is possible to sit in an interview and profess that
we are honest if we know that our presence in this country is in disobedience
with the law. As members it is not our role to judge but the Lord inspired men
to create a constitution providing a process for developing laws and a system of
selecting or electing leaders to judge according to that and other laws of the
land. My feeling is that we are dishonoring God through the current church
stealing a million is much worse than stealing a nickel - How do you
reconcile -love thy neighbor and then condone a mass eviction - that's not love
that's hate - we let them in - we offer them services while their here - now you
want to kick them out - seems full of hate to me.
I see no wiggle room in the Articles of Faith. Twist and turn it all you want,
we should honor the law of the land, period. If you are here illegaly, you are
not in line with this Article of Faith and, therefore, unworthy to enter into
any Temple. I don't see how it can be interpreted any other way, no matter how
eloquent and articulate you put it.
Comparisons between illegal immigration and speeding or jaywalking or simple
tresspassing only reveal the ignorance of the person making the comment,
including "Elder" Jensen.For a number of reasons, illegal entrance
into any country is a serious matter, and a significant crime. But it is also a
violation of the laws of God (it violates several of the Ten Commandments, as
well as tenets of the LDS faith and worthiness standards). For an official
representative of the LDS Church to say what Jensen said is shocking and
appalling. It is the harbinger of anarchy and lawlessness, and reveals the
contradictions in the Church leadership - preaching we must obey the laws of the
land, but then condoning breaking the laws of the land.To those who
call for mercy and compassion, shall we also give amnesty and "compassion" to
all those who commit home invasion robberies? Or hold-up banks at gunpoint? Or
embezzle funds from their companies? Or who rape and murder young children (its
just minor "tresspassing" on their bodies)?Illegal immigration
steals from others. It affects legal citizens' livelihoods. It contributes to
gang violence, drug trafficking, and violent crime such as aggravated assault
and murder.Wake up.
Don't worry, if the 12th Article of Faith, or any other canonized, doctrinal
standard becomes politically or economically problematic for the church, the
leaders will just have a revelation and change it.I prophecy that
the 12th Article of Faith will be subtly revised:"We believe in
being subject to prophets, seers, and revelators of the Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter-day Saints, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining only those laws of
the land that they agree with and tell us to obey."There. That
"Love thy neighbor" What if your neighbor is a witch? "Do not suffer a Witch to
live" or lives in the next town? "Kill all that breatheth". I guess if you want
to go by the Law's of God you can do what ever you feel is o.k. as long as it is
some where is found in the book. If you live in a country which has law's that
you don't agree with, you can move or respect their laws. Well whats it
going to be?
Hillary Clinton: DemocratIssue: InmigrationQuestion:
What should happen to ilegal inmigrants already in the US?Candidate
Position: Allow illegal inmigrants to stay in the US and provide a path to
citizenship that includes paying fines, learning English, and meeting other
conditions.Support: Clinton supports"...a fairer process for people
seeking to come to America, especially for those whose families have been torn
apart: a path to earned citinzenship for thosho are here, working hard, paying
taxes, respecting the law, and willing to meet a high bar for becoming a
citizen."Source: Clinton's Senate office press release, march 8 2006
these guys cause 5000 deaths a year by murder..that's right up there with the
war. Don't play your spiritual strings on my heart..these guys are not welcome
period. Other states are already telling these people to come to Utah and
pulling up these welcome articles. These people have their own grapevine and
look at this as some great victory. I get tired of standing in line at western
union just knowing these guys are using some else's id as they can't speak a
lick of english. Resonable , humanitarian responsibility entails shipping them
back and tightening the regulations that allowed them here as they make a
mockery of everything i was taught as a legal citizen. Law enforcement is having
a hard enough time with this population, now the flood will come from all
directions as the door was just opened some more..pray for your children in
school as they are going to be left behind to attend to alot more bigger classes
jus to accomadate these people. Just let these people keep comming and putting
the strain on the system which was based on integrity which they have over
stayed their welcome on. Go Home and help there!
Im contacting the IRS to complain that the LDS church should have it tax exempt
status removed because of its meddling the the legislative process. I strongly
believe in the separation of church and state and the Mormon church has stepped
over the line one too many times
I loved the line from the article that states,"Elder Jensen noted that
immigration is not only a political issue but a moral and ethical one."It
never ceases to amase me how educated people can lump the two together so
easily. My thought is that Immigration is good, necessary and definately a
Governmental issue. On the other hand, illegal immigration (or illegal anything)
is a moral and ethical issue.
To be consistent it sounds like ANYONE who knows of or strongly suspects and
illegal should be an enforcer and phyisically apprehend them...lest they leave
their employment and flee before authorities arrive to catch them. This means
that if an illegal shows up at a Baptist church or LDS church, whatever, they
should be apprehended, expelled, and/or reported. The same goes for any
establishment, religious or secular. Schools, hospitals, doctors (no mercy
driven emergency health attention) etc. The only way to stop illegals is cut
off employment funds. The church should not employ illegals but not allowing
them to participate in church related practices? It simply isn't practical. The
church shouldn't be enforcers. If a Bishops refuses a temple recommend or
offers temporary mercy meals or accepts donations (tithes which would worsen
their economic position) doesn't have much of an affect on the illegal problem.
All a Bishop could do to solve illegals is to jump out of his chair and wrestle
the illegal to the authorities. No illegals would ever show up at church
again...but they'd just ward hop and stay here anyway. For the time being, till
the government gets a smarter program, just follow the GA's policies.
Hello people! If I get arrested for a DUI, the church doesn't kick me out! Why
would people expect the church to kick out those who come here illegally? This
is a world-wide religion! Get a grip, those who are thinking of leaving the
church. Do you believe in God? check Do you believe the BofM to be true?
check... then leave people's salvation to themselves and quit judging! Ugh,
this drives me crazy! WE all think we're better than others don't we?
Puhlease! No-one is excommunicated for not paying his taxes! Why do people
spread this kind of junk?
Correct, the church or its members should NOT be enforcers. Whether to be honest
or not is a personal decision and much like for any blessing from God, it is by
obedience to that law upon which it is predicated there is also a consequence
predicated for disobedience. Free agency is a gift from the Lord to all, for
better or for worse. It is not for members to judge, however, in the private
confines of a Priesthood leaders office, it is his responsibility to judge a
persons individual truthfulness when answering the questions in a Baptismal or
Temple interview that ask about individual honesty.
It is one thing for the Church to tell us to obey the law. It is another for
the Church to keep us out because we break the law. The Church may decide that
certain sins are severe enough to put our membership in jeopardy, but it does
not take a position on all laws. There are several acts that can jeopardize
your standing with the Church (pornography, smoking, etc.) that the government
cares less about, and there are other acts where the Church's view matches the
law. But the laws of the land and the Church are not the same. If I
break a law and deny it then my standing in the Church may be called into
question because I have been dishonest. But if I break a law (like speeding, or
an immigration law), and I take responsibility, plead guilty about it and try to
resolve it, the Church does not take a position. If an illegal
admits to his status the Church will ask him to resolve that status by gaining
legal residence or returning home. But throughout that process he will remain in
good standing, both here and in his home country.
Can you see why we are counseled against "speaking against the Lord's anointed"?
I have been listening to other people talk about, taking the proper procedures
on coming to the US legally. And I agree that your are dishonest if you do not.
I also beleive that you cannot hold a temple recommend if you are not living an
honest life. However, the Brothren have not taken a strong stand, so it's left
up to the inspiration of the Bishop, but not for me to judge.Although I
have one question.... How many of you that complain about the illegals coming
here have been to mexico and bought prescription drugs to bring beack to the US,
and paid cheaper prices for medical procedures (extreely popular now. US Dr are
even performing surgeries like gastric bipass, cosmentic procedures and other
for next to nothing), or barder down the prices of the goods that they purchase
which isn't helping their economy. We can't have it both ways. We can't except
them to be honest when we enter their country to be dishonest as well.
I pay taxes and work extremely hard and I am still poor. I want to know where my
I taxes are going and not to support LAW BREAKING Illegals! This SOOOOO terribly
wrong! I was always taught as a child to live the laws of the land. Somehow I
cannot support double standards. Sooooo long..... brethren!!!!!!
re: mom,Your statement makes the assumption that large numbers of people
choose to break the law and quite frankly to be stupid by actually thinking that
buying drugs in Mexico with no assurance of their quality. Bardering has
nothing to do with being dishonest. Your blanket statement that infers that
people only enter Mexico to be dishonest just leads one to believe that somehow
you think it isn't possible to go to Mexico for honest reasons even though there
are plenty of good, honest reasons to go there that help to strengthen their
economy.Some of us actually take the being honest in your dealing
with your fellow men seriously but when spokesmen for the brethrern start
talking about how minor an offense is being committed one has to wonder how
seriously the church takes it as well as respecting the laws of the land.
This is totally a non issue. If you have a problem with someone doing Temple
work, that has broken the law coming here, or has stolen someones identity, then
you need to take it up with your bishop.
A church leader urges "compassion" and people start ranting and raving and
criticizing? Are you people insane? You have two choices, follow your conscience
and consider every fellow human being as a child of God of infinite worth, or
get yourself so worked up into a froth that all you are is an angry, ignorant
repeater of far-right wing lies. Instead of ranting and raving, go read the
Bible or Book or Mormon where it says to love your neighbor and not to spit upon
the poor for being poor and to welcome the stranger. Hatred is a far greater sin
than crossing a border without paperwork. It always has been and always will be.
Mormons outside of Utah have long been concerned that Utah Mormons are becoming
like the Pharisees of Jesus' time-- using phrases like, "We believe in honoring
and sustaining the law" as an excuse to persecute illegal aliens in every
possible way. But what about the weightier matters of the law? Love? Compassion?
Love God and love thy neighbor trumps border-crossing paperwork every time. If
people want to leave the Mormon church over the church's pleas to have
compassion, let them leave. Their hearts were clearly never in it anyway. But
please, stop using my religion to justify your lack of charity and compassion.
You are embarrassing all Mormons and offending God.
Your quote "Love God and love thy neighbor trumps border crossing paperwork" is
profound. My question is how can we love God when we disobey His commandment to
obey the law of the land?
My comment about Pharisees totally went over your head. Are you telling me you
love God? Are you telling me you drive exactly the speed limit and always signal
when changing lanes? If not, you don't "obey the law of the land" and thus don't
love God? Study up on the Pharisees. If the shoe fits...
Interesting how many people talk about "the law" as if there were only one law
in the US--immigration. Hello out there. Do you know any illegal immigrants? I
do. They have respect for "the law" they love their families, they read stories
to their kids, they don't steal or murder. They would become legal immigrants if
they could. Unfortunately, despite what people think, there is no paperwork they
can fill out to become legal, no matter what they do. If you hate illegal
immigrants, can't you at least follow Jesus' command to "love thine enemies?"
No one is addressing the real question.... why is this mass exodus from Mexico
and other Latin American countries happening at this time?..I'll give you a
clue---it has everything to do with prophecy and George Bush's deal with Vicente
Fox(Mexico's Prez.)and the New World Order that they ARE establishing..so, the
real question is this: Do we support this New World Order movement in the name
of "compassion" of illegal immigrants? Are we starting to see the fulfillment of
prophecy, that we will lose our freedoms in this chosen land to people that will
eventually over-run us, because we have allowed God to be taken out of our
country and we no longer worship the God of this land?
NEW WORLD ORDER??? Bush & Fox conspiracy????Dude, you are seriously
paranoid! Tell me, do Utah mormons still believe California is going to fall
into the ocean in sin and apostacy??I love reading the Deseret
news.....Makes Arkansas look intelligent and progressive!
What Carey says above is not entirely true. There are several ways by which a
citizen of Mexico may immigrate to the United States, including via the
diversity lottery visa.
They can win the visa lottery! Oops, forgot about that one. Yeah, that will
solve everything. Ever think about why they call it a lottery? They can get
sponsored by a university or technology company or a hospital--if they have
high-level skills, take years to process the paperwork, tests, etc, and the
company sponsoring them can certify there is no American citizen who could fill
their job description. But really, you can't see that as an option for the
majority of people who come here, whose unskilled labor we depend on. Oh, and
there's another way--they can marry an American citizen. All put together, none
of these methods amount to much and cannot fix the situation. You will note that
all these people who say "hey, come here legally or get out" are the first ones
to block any possibility of Mexicans coming here legally. Which proves it's a
lot more about "I don't like brown people who are poor and don't talk the way I
do" than "We believe in honoring and sustaining the law."
You can choose to become a resident of Utah if you like. Your taxes will go up,
but if in-state tuition is all you want, you can get it just like any other
resident. Oh yeah, except immigrants who may have lived here practically all
their lives. We want to block them from resident tuition--because we think their
lives are too easy as is and we want to kick them in the stomach in every
possible way, apparently. Not that it will help, but it always feels good to
hurt someone with less money or power than you, doesn't it?
wife waiting 6 years for legal citizenship.I have given compassion
to those of foreign countries, I have sent a number to college- members and
non-members, helped fix storm torn homes, or help to have houses built, paid for
more than 80 surgeries. took wheel chair for young lady ( no legs) to
Philippines. and other things to asist. That was my effort and money of course
from the blessings of God. it wasn't tax payers money or my neighbors money, nor
other church members money. Those that wait in line are also
hungry, poor, seperated from families. But they enter legally , are screened
properly. waited turn. not breaking law or a law unto themselves. They are
disease free, have legal documents. Are not allowed to take advantage of any
welfare. Have to have legal paper to work.If you want to fix
immigration then work on it, but do not tell me that compassion is to reward
those that steal the rights of those that wait their turn. Amnesty was given a
few years ago to these from the countries they came from. They were to seek
legal after that. That failed they still want to steal reward.
I have visited the poor of the 3rd world, outside the USA and the natives inside
the USA- spent $10,000 in gold and a hundred pounds of silver to the hopi, food
, clothing -again all I had, my retirement and savings. I didn't take another
man's property.Those in the 3rd world deserve better. I bet all
those of you taht say have compassion do nothing more than give lip service
from your own pockets. Certainly you are ignorant as to how and to
whom it ought to be given. Why not sponsor under the law those of foreign
countries, go or do as I did, send $ to the mission president od any country and
have him give the money to poor, I sent $2,000 that paid for supplies of tools
for whole villages and bought school supplies for all the children on an island
no matter what faith they were. Helping them where they are is
better, or helping them come legally is best. adinf and abeting illegals who
ignore the rule of law for self while their own countrymen wait in line is
wrong. There are still those that wait after 15 years to get here.
Compassion is what one does themselves, not instituted or carried out by an
organization. Place a small amount of money in an envelope and call it taking
care of giving compassion? I see few if none of those that want the
ledgislators to show compassion, taking any of these illegals into their homes,
I do not see the Church with soup kitchens or opening their chapels up to house
the homeless. I do not see counsel from the Church for those with the means to
sponsor or support good people in the rest of the world. all we talk about is
how to sustain those that are illegal.Why not match a ward, stake of
wealthy members to a ward or stake of a 3rd world country so that member family
to member family true compassion can be shown family to family. Most 3rd World
have never seen a bike extra clothes, shoes, 3 meals a day, jobs, a house that
they can fit in, fuel to cook with. medical bills or surgeries. No bus to
school, no free lunch. no way to USA.talk of compassion for law
breakers, strain over a nait, swallow a camel- help someone worthy.
The Church has become more a fraternity than servants of Christ. it is self
serving to take care of its own, and ignore those of god's children not their
own. It is the same even with their own in foreign lands. They even
fail to educate their wealth here in USA about the circumstances of their own in
foreign lands. Members in wealth do almost absolutely nothing for thier own kind
in other lands. Bishops in foreign lands can not in many cases afford to take
their own families to church let alone help continue to teach the converts that
come in. They do not have funds to give to the poor among them, they can not
assit in surgeries , or help with food or school or lost jobs. There are no
church activities , the youth can not afford to come to Church. The houses at
best are delapitated neding more to be like one of our 2nd hand sheds. If lucky
they have 3 meals a day of rice, one fish serves the whole family as flavor.
There are no christmases, thanksgivings, easter. There are no birthdays,
extended education. no bikes, extra clothes,bands, choirs, toys, movies.
now that's compassion as they better not step on my land , bought and paid for
by the almighty george! I can think of alot of other people to donate my
compassion to in this state , who are here legally not some low down law
I have been following this discussion quite closely and enjoy seeing the debate
and different points of view. Getting back to the issue at hand, it is not about
hate, it is not about discrimination, it is not even about members judging each
other. It is about a contradiction that exists in the church with current policy
on one side and the words of prophets regarding obedience to the law on the
other. My understanding is that the church does not see these people as having
broken the law and will not officially call them illegal, they are simply
undocumented. The perception is that the church does not even acknowledge the
law that is being broken which seems awkwardly opposed to scripture. Breaking
the law is a sin that can be forgiven (like most others) after a private
discussion with a priesthood leader which usually involves confession and
forsaking. This is not a members call to make but it would be nice if some
formal direction could be handed down to Bishops especially when we are asking
members about personal honesty.
The "visa lottery" program comment (above) was not meant to be facetious.
Apparently Casey is unaware that there is an official government program called
the Diversity Visa Lottery. It has an unfortunate name, but the truth of the
matter is, there are more people willing to enter the United States than its
systems and budget can bear. There are many ways one can legally enter and
remain in the United States. The minimum requirement to enter legally by way of
the Diversity Visa program is to have a high school diploma. The US legally
gives thousands of visas to people in hundreds of countries each year. The fact
that it doesn't hand them out by the millions is simply logical, common sense
order and economics. Of course, other ways to enter and stay legally are via
marriage, work visas, family sponsors, etc.Isn't anyone aware that
the United States is billions of dollars in debt? And yet you want open borders?
Jensen and his ilk should be ashamed of peddling such malarkey and spitting in
the faces of legal residents and US citizens. Shame on you!
OK OK OK everyone who does not have immigrant blood, speak up.kind
of quiet eh. Native Americans can now speak.But wait, you also came
from somewhere else. Lots of theories, I tend toward the scientific side of
the migration from Siberia. BUt they all say that people came here from
somewhere else.We are all immigrants so let's put our little tiny
brains to work and figure this out. No one really has the high moral ground:
we are all here from another place. Unless you are a worm or something, and if
so, I apologize to you.The Shadow Knows.
Shadow, it's simple, controlled legal immigration good, illegal entry bad.My forefathers had to wait for 6 years to enter this country, but they
did it the right way.I an afraid the statement, "There is nothing
inherent or wrong about that status", when speaking of lawbreakers, is going to
come back on us members of the Church, when we talk about obeying the laws.
What a Crock. This is just another typical example of the church's twisted
logic and self-justification. How anyone can continue to believe the nonsense
from that comes from the pulpit is beyond me.
I want to live in Buckingham Palace. Don't I have the right to just move in
because I too want a "better life?" Doesn't the Queen of England have a
Christian duty to let me move in?
As a Latter-Day Saint, and a hispanic, I am stunned at the Church's comment's
concerning the illegal immigration problem. I understand compassion, but the
rule of law has to be obeyed. As a convert, I wonder, does our Church's article
of faith concerning obeying the laws of the land not count? Do we get to pick
and choose the laws we obey, or the articles of faith that we believe in? Why
does my child, if he or she wants to attend a public college in Utah, have to
pay 3 times the tuition as an illegal alien? My children are citizens. This is
chaos and as much as my Church believes in order, I am shocked by their stance.
Compassion is important, but there is an orderly and correct way to go
It is a good thing we aren't punished for the "sins" of our fathers. The Treaty
of Guadalupe Hidalgo was signed February 2, 1848. Utah, and much of the West,
belonged to Mexico until that date in 1848. Clearly that date is after July 24,
1847 when the pioneers entered the valley. My ancestors and many of the
poster's ancestors were "trespassing" on foreign soil when they entered the
valley and started a better, safer life here. Maybe we should keep that
historical fact in mind as we try to work out the illegal immigrant mess.
Questions not asked! As the "undocumented workers" continue to stream across our
borders, our own government wants to track our every movement, every phone call,
every e-mail. As our government continues to ask for more of our liberty and
freedom in the guise of keeping us safe, tens of thousands cross our borders.
Are they loyal to the United States? Are they criminals, terrorists? Are they
loyal to the Constitution of the United States(what's left of it)? Are they
supportive of keeping their Mexican citizenship (dual citizenship)? Are they
supportive of La Raza and MEChA? I have compassion for those truly looking for a
better life. Do it legally! By the way undocumented is still illegal.
you hit right on the botton! there's something called the North American Union
2005 that is still alive. find it read it!
"Compassion is important, but there is an orderly and correct way to go about
it."As one who believes in the supreme importance of compassion and
charity, I agree wholeheartedly. I don't think for one minute that the Church is
saying "Throw the borders open--no laws matter anymore." Nor would they *ever*
say it--the many vehemently shouted OPINIONS on these boards notwithstanding.No--read and think carefully. Instead, they're saying "Let's find a
lawful solution to the problem of illegal immigration--BUT as we do so, don't
forget we're dealing with human beings who deserve compassion and respect. Put
aside any vengeful feelings and prejudice and be TRULY just." That's
not too much to ask. I believe Christ would say the same if He were here. In
fact, it's entirely possible He IS saying precisely that through the prophets.
Anybody ever considered that?We need laws and respect for the
laws--but we also need compassion. Both are important in a truly civilized
society. And neither can rob the other. In other words, it's not a
question of whether to APPLY justice OR mercy. It's a question of how to BALANCE
justice AND mercy. BOTH ARE IMPORTANT.
There are two types of criminal offenses in the law. Malum in se (sp) and malum
prohibitum. The first are those which are inherently wrong while the second are
wrong only because they are prohibited by statute. One could make an arguement
that there is a difference as far as "obeying the law of the land" between the
two. For instance, every time you speed down I-15 (our your favorite local
thoroughfare) you are in a state of lawbreaking. Now when you speed on your way
to meet with the bishop you are in much the same position as an illegal
immigrant. I've seen how people drive here in Utah (myself included) and if
that offense were self reported the temples would be very empty indeed.
Amazing the passion for "the law" with all these members of the Church. Only if
they had 1/4 of the passion as anxiously engaged members of the Church. Choose
this day who you serve.
Lie are lies and none will get anyone to heaven. Sounds to me as though some
worms are about us. For me I will follow what Joseph Smith and the 12 article of
faith. No 2 ways about it. Having compassion is good when there are no worm
holes or cover-ups.
Perhaps Al D. should speak for himself about answering temple recommend
questions. I don't lie to my bishop and stake president. You cannot be an
illegal alien without lying and being dishonest in your dealings with your
fellow men.The position of the Church in honoring and sustaining the law
has been clear since the days of Joseph Smith. It's an Article of Faith. It is,
or I thought it was, a no-brainer. There are thousands of LEGAL aliens
waiting their turn to get in this country, and who have just as much right to
feed their families as the illegals. It is time the law honored those who honor
We know that we can be forgiven of almost every sin if we acknowledge (confess),
provide restitution and forsake. Breaking the law is a sin and as we pray and
strive to not repeat the same mistake, we can be forgiven for minor things (like
speeding). The problem is that when someone crosses the border illegally well
its a hard one to provide restitution for and forsake. A point about
the honesty issue that I read in another post. I actually place the baptismal
and Temple Recommend interviews on the same plane. We come right out and have to
say that we are honest in the Temple interview but we have to say that we will
obey the commandments in the baptismal interview. As far as I understand it,
being in this country illegally (OR HIRING ILLEGALS) is being dishonest and the
articles of faith qualify as commandments.
I came across a year old newspaper article from the local paper in which
President Hinckley was interviewed. The interview focused on the 200th
anniversary of Joseph Smiths birthday and of coarse mentioned polygamy.
President Hinckley made a statement during the interview that also appears as a
headline in quotes. We have very little sympathy for those who
disobey the law.
At this point we are also talking about future laws.Individuals in
my family have been mistaken for illegal immigrants merely because our skin is
not lily white. We have been cursed at and chased after because of it. And yet
we descend from Pilgrim stock, patriots and Mormon pioneers on the white side
and legal immigrants on the Asian side.Are you confident that every
"disobedient" person you abuse is in fact illegal?
It sounds to me like you are reading into this issue. When the posters here
refer to disobedient people, it refers to someone who overtly breaks the law.
Any other disobedience would be between the individual, the Lord and perhaps a
priesthood leader. In answer to your question Yes every person who clearly, and
openly breaks the law is illegal. If your conscience is clear before the Lord,
it should be clear before man. Any persecution you feel from others is simply
the result of the same kind of misguided prejudice the LDS people have always
If compassion means not running them out of their houses and chasing them back
across the border with sticks then I am all for compassion. We have legal
processes for dealing with immigration violations and we can have more such
laws. But people who claim to be (and are accepted as being) in
authority over others need to be very careful about condoning expediency and
necessity in relation to the law and the authority of the law. It won't be long
before their own authority is questioned.
Illegal immigrants wish that they could immigrate legally. A legal visa is only
for the very rich or those who are not in dire need of a job to feed the family
and can wait for an average of ten years for a visa. We wish our countries could
support and succor us. We would love to stay in our countries and be close to
our families. We risk our lives in the crossing out of desperation and the the
fact that we dare to dream for our children. But we bring labor, because we know
you need a brake in prices. We strive to do our jobs well, and to be honest in
our work. Contrary to belief, we do not have access to welfare or free programs.
It is your poor who do that. We immigrants work for what we eat. there are
some illegals who commit crimes( harm others) but that is the minority. You will
notice that criminals come in every color and from every nation. We are here to
help, believe it or not. Thank you for your kindness, and the jobs you provide
for us. Hasta la vista. You aare good people.
In answer to the question, who would Jesus deport?Probably those who have
murdered the 50,000 Americans thathave been killed by illegals since 9/11,
and those that have rapedand molested children that are illegals, and
those that have maimedAmericans in car accidents while drunk (with no
license and after 4 previousDUIs).One of my dearest friends lives
apart from her Canadian husband because of immigration LAWS, and another had to
go back to Australia with her new babyand Australian husband (although
they wanted to remain) because they adhereto the laws. Their crime
is that they receive free medical and educational and citizenship benefits that
others would love to receive that are keeping the law.If you are so
concerned about their plight, have them return, do it legally, and in the
meantime, give them money and help support them in changing their country. We cannot allow everyone to come here because their situation is not as good
as ours. There are many Americans who need help, and many others who have done
it the right way, the legal way.I can't believe the Church doesn't
require them to live the law.
I do not understand "coming onto a person's property uninvited" not being
inherently wrong. Surely trespass or illegal entry is both illegal and wrong.
My family joined the LDS church in 1833, 3 years after it started. This illegal
issue is just one of the many reasons I quit attending the LDS church. Just a
hint on the other reasons, Warren Jeffs is a cupcake compared to Joseph Smith.
I dont have a problem with anyone who wants to come to this country but they
need to do it the right way. it drives up costs, of health insurance, takes jobs
of citizens, creates a black market for immigration fraud as well as provides a
huge disservice for those immigrants who cant speak or communicate.How the LDS
church can justify how they feel is beyond me. I am a life long member so dont
think i am on the anti- mormon band wagon. If the church devoted all the money
they are wasting on building malls to enhance their image, they could provide a
great deal more good for people who wish to come here.What is that 11 th article
of faith again???
I want my country to protect our boarders and keep illegles from coming here.
Yet the LDS church loves it's members no matter where they are from, AS DO I!
However I would not turn in LDS members who are here illegally, if they are
caught and returned (Deported) it is the Law which determines their destiny. The
LDS Church member should have followed the proper channels to get here in the
first place. I empathize with them, yet we believe in following the laws of the
land! It is that simple, keep the laws of the land and there is no problems, if
you don't and your caught, then you pay the consequences of the law you broke,
it's the same with a speeding ticket, or "J" walking, it doesn't matter, if you
keep the laws, and don't break the commandments and God's council you will be
protected against the consequences of breaking laws or commandments most of the
time. There is no problem here, nor conflict of interest. It's that simple.
Dont forget the Church told German memebers during WW2 to obey the laws of their
land. If you were called to be a Nazi..you had to be one.
At what point is obedience to an unjust law immoral? Our thinking has been
perverted by our acceptance of incorrect principles. I think we are going to
see a division of some of the wheat from the tares with this issue. And all of
the anti-illegal-immigration folk have got to educate themselves on the real
issue here. If you can see past the diversion that the media and our
politicians are throwing at us, you will see that the root of the problem is not
illegal immigration, rather it is the welfare state. Put an end to the welfare
state and you solve the real problem. Love your neighbor enough to help him
fend for himself and not rely on free handouts that weaken his character and
take that which he has not earned.
Is it compassion to allow entry to millions of people crossing our borders and
breaking laws without background checks on their criminal and medical issues. Is
it compassionate to allow them entry while those keeping our laws and attempting
to enter legally to be with their families and want to become citizens are
refused or waiting up to 15 years to be allowed entry. If I and my family of (?)
five walked into your house, slept in your beds, ate your food and didn't
work, while having you pay our medical costs, would everyone be ok with that? Is
anyone doing that? Those demanding this need to adopt these families that are
living off our citizens hard work and taxes. With benefits even our citizens do
not have. Unbelievable.